Working Freelance For Overseas Businesses

[Soutpeel]

Have the company establish a presence in Thailand.

What for? I am working as a commission based consultant for them. They have no business related to Thailand, neither do I.

What I don´t understand is that one guy from Labour says you don´t need a Thai company, just a contract overseas, while the either says it´s not possible...

That is probalby based on a difference in udnerstanding what you eactly do. For only business meetings on behalf of a company that does business with a Thai company no work permit is required. But you are not (only) doing business meetings here.

The only way to work legally is to get a work permit and for that you need to work for a Thai company or a foreign company which has a branch office in Thailand.

Mario.from what i understand, even the info for your first paragraph maybe changing soon, as regards the business meeting thing not requiring a WP..seen some info bouncing around that some of the big MNC's will not let you in the door for a business meeting unless you have a WP and in the case of a vendor flying in for the meeting the host company will arrange the a temporary WP ie the 14 day variety....

So there maybe changes a foot on this current arrangement

[givenall]

in my opinion, get visa based on your marriage and work freelance and deposit the money in your foreign bank and then transfer over here. this way you eliminate a lot of hassles, including salary and employee requirements

[Phronesis]

Work in an office with the door locked from the inside.

Keep your data in the cloud.

Use encryption and a password on your computer.

If you hear an unnanounced knock on your door....turn your computer off...end on problem.

Practical solutions are always the best...ignore the fear mongering piffle proffered by many on this forum...

[NeverSure]

I worked both times I lived in Chiang Mai. Not much work, but I was "on call." I had an encrypted tunnel to my server where I logged into Active Directory and then went out from there, in the US. No one could tell I wasn't home in my office. Would one of your clients give you an account on their server and let you do the same?

Then I just kept my mouth shut to everyone including a couple of girlfriends I had.

The fear, as others have mentioned, is that someone would turn you in. That could be an angry wife, a competitor, or any other enemy you might accidentally make like a landlord or neighbor...

It's still illegal. You still risk penalties. I'm a risk taker. Up to you.

[NeverSure]

Work in an office with the door locked from the inside.

Keep your data in the cloud.

Use encryption and a password on your computer.

If you hear an unnanounced knock on your door....turn your computer off...end on problem.

Practical solutions are always the best...ignore the fear mongering piffle proffered by many on this forum...

Very good. The cloud wasn't as big a deal then. Today it's an answer.

I forgot to say that I created an encrypted virtual drive on my hard disk and all of my dangerous stuff was on it including my .pst file for Outlook. I had to open it every time I logged onto my computer, and shutting the computer down would close it.

[lopburi3]

ignore the fear mongering

One guess what charge these folks will face (todays news) (read the link if in doubt).

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/629146-brit-dutchman-filipino-busted-in-bangkok-telemarketing-scam/#entry6247506

[HidyHo]

I travel outside of Thailand for work and my money is coming in from outside of Thailand.

You should not need a work permit if you are not working in Thailand - you are in same position as many hundreds of off-shore oil and gas workers who do that but spend the off-time in Thailand. But if you reside in Thailand you should be paying income tax here - you do not need a work permit to do that.

For my clarification, are you stating that offshore oil worker (as an example) who earns money outside Thailand but may reside in Thailand (say 3 months offshore, 3 months drinking in Pattaya) needs to pay income tax in Thailand? Is that a Thai law?

[lopburi3]

Yes if a resident of Thailand.

http://www.rd.go.th/publish/6045.0.html

Taxpayers are classified into “resident” and “non-resident”. “Resident” means any individual residing in Thailand for a period or several periods in total of at least 180 days in a tax year (January 1 – December 31). A resident of Thailand has a duty to pay tax on income remitted from a source in Thailand as well as on any income from a foreign source in connection with the taxpayers’ employment or business carried on abroad or a property situated abroad, and that income is remitted into Thailand within the year that the taxpayer receives that income (i.e. cash basis). A non-resident is subject to tax only on income from sources in Thailand.

[Hawkman]

As a couple of other posters have said, the laws (not just Thailand) are out of date as the world has changed. We are living in an internet/smartphone world. The world is smaller now; you don't need too be in an office, your laptop and your sofa could be your office now.

Laws aren't of much help if they say you need a WP to work here, but at the same time won't issue you a WP to cover online work.

Result being, these outdated laws encourage illegal working and non-payment of tax. Countries should get together and come up with ideas to solve issues like this; it's plain for everyone else to see this. Surely a reduction in tax paid at home, then use this saved tax paid to the country you're currently residing in. Yes, it would be a pain to implement, but better than nothing.

It annoys me the stinking rich can choose which countries they can move about to and stay while the rest of us are strictly controlled. Understandable of course, or it will be mayhem, but at the end of the day it's morally wrong.

Edited March 28, 2013 by Hawkman

[Soutpeel]

I travel outside of Thailand for work and my money is coming in from outside of Thailand.

You should not need a work permit if you are not working in Thailand - you are in same position as many hundreds of off-shore oil and gas workers who do that but spend the off-time in Thailand. But if you reside in Thailand you should be paying income tax here - you do not need a work permit to do that.

For my clarification, are you stating that offshore oil worker (as an example) who earns money outside Thailand but may reside in Thailand (say 3 months offshore, 3 months drinking in Pattaya) needs to pay income tax in Thailand? Is that a Thai law?

to be liable for tax in Thailand in this situation you need to be resident 180 days or more, the typically O&G guy's work 28/28 or 60/30...and with their travel time getting to an from work highly unlikely they will be in Thailand 180 days or more in one year, further some of the guys will be paying tax at source, therefore if double tax agreement in place with Thailand they wouldnt be liable for tax either in Thialand even if they were here more than 180 days

but to comment on the other poster, about not needing a WP in Thailand if you dont work here..your correct you dont need one, but people working on-line in Thailand even for oversea's companies are actually working in Thailand, that is the physical location they are working, who they of working for and where they are getting paid is irrelevant

[Soutpeel]

As a couple of other posters have said, the laws (not just Thailand) are out of date as the world has changed. We are living in an internet/smartphone world. The world is smaller now; you don't need too be in an office, your laptop and your sofa could be your office now.

Laws aren't of much help if they say you need a WP to work here, but at the same time won't issue you a WP to cover online work.

Result being, these outdated laws encourage illegal working and non-payment of tax. Countries should get together and come up with ideas to solve issues like this; it's plain for everyone else to see this. Surely a reduction in tax paid at home, then use this saved tax paid to the country you're currently residing in. Yes, it would be a pain to implement, but better than nothing.

It annoys me the stinking rich can choose which countries they can move about to and stay while the rest of us are strictly controlled. Understandable of course, or it will be mayhem, but at the end of the day it's morally wrong.

as to your last sentance...become stinking rich then .!!!!..........as to not issuing WP for online, a member of TV some years ago..did exactly that and had the WP...so it appears it can be done...so to it boils down to the onliner's cant be ar*ed and start bleating on the the rules are not fair...the rules are out dated etc...I have numerous WP's in many countries over the years, including Thailand and can assure Thailand is one of the easier ones to get legal...if you can be bothered

[Sophon]

<snipped>

...further some of the guys will be paying tax at source, therefore if double tax agreement in place with Thailand they wouldnt be liable for tax either in Thialand even if they were here more than 180 days

<snipped>

The existance of a double tax agreement doesn't necessarily mean that no tax would be due in Thailand. It is quite normal for such agreements to state that both countres can tax income, but that Thailand would have to give credit for any tax deducted at source. So if e.g. 10% were deducted at source but the Thai tax comes to 15%, Thailand could still claim the last 5% in tax.

Sophon

Edited March 28, 2013 by Sophon

[Soutpeel]

<snipped>

...further some of the guys will be paying tax at source, therefore if double tax agreement in place with Thailand they wouldnt be liable for tax either in Thialand even if they were here more than 180 days

<snipped>

The existance of a double tax agreement doesn't necessarily mean that no tax would be due in Thailand. It is quite normal for such agreements to state that both countres can tax income, but that Thailand would have to give credit for any tax deducted at source. So if e.g. 10% were deducted at source but the Thai tax comes to 15%, Thailand could still claim the last 5% in tax.

Sophon

of course...but in all probability the tax they are paying at source will attract the higher rate...

[HidyHo]

of course...but in all probability the tax they are paying at source will attract the higher rate...

Last time I looked at the personal income tax rates for Thailand, it wasn't that low.

Taxable Income (baht) Marginal Taxable Income (baht) tax Rate(%)

0 - 150,000 (2008 onwards) 150,000 Exempt

150,001 - 500,000 350,000 10

500,001 - 1,000,000 500,000 20

1,000,001 - 4,000,000 3,000,000 30

4,000,001 and over 37

Edited March 28, 2013 by HidyHo

[Naam]

The law is crystal clear, you could have been jailed for up to 5 years.

in my [not so] humble opinion the law, respectively its interpretation by the resident learned people, is not crystal clear. i live in Thailand, work hard every day to manage my investments and i am (most of the times) rewarded financially. there must be hundreds over even thousands of expats in Thailand who do the same.

and if anybody tells us that we need a work permit for that work we will laugh heartily

[Loptr]

1. Any work performed in Thailand requires a work permit, period.

2. Savankhet is the only place that will issue multiple non-O based on marriage without showing funds.

So who would authorize the work permit in this case? The employer is not in Thailand, nor is any of the work product. So by this person's efforts they are neither contributing to the Thai economy or taking work from a Thai person.

I know you are just quoting chapter and verse as per your interpretation of the law, but there are lots of people doing this in Thailand.

To the OP, just keep your mouth shut about what you are doing and you shouldn't have any issues. You start waving flags or telling the neighbors or especially other expats and you open yourself up for trouble.

Modern laws are too outdated to even cover this scenario. What of people taking care of stock portfolios online? The world has changed.

And then there are the tax advantages of such an arrangement.

[Loptr]

I travel outside of Thailand for work and my money is coming in from outside of Thailand.

You should not need a work permit if you are not working in Thailand - you are in same position as many hundreds of off-shore oil and gas workers who do that but spend the off-time in Thailand. But if you reside in Thailand you should be paying income tax here - you do not need a work permit to do that.

For my clarification, are you stating that offshore oil worker (as an example) who earns money outside Thailand but may reside in Thailand (say 3 months offshore, 3 months drinking in Pattaya) needs to pay income tax in Thailand? Is that a Thai law?

to be liable for tax in Thailand in this situation you need to be resident 180 days or more, the typically O&G guy's work 28/28 or 60/30...and with their travel time getting to an from work highly unlikely they will be in Thailand 180 days or more in one year, further some of the guys will be paying tax at source, therefore if double tax agreement in place with Thailand they wouldnt be liable for tax either in Thialand even if they were here more than 180 days

but to comment on the other poster, about not needing a WP in Thailand if you dont work here..your correct you dont need one, but people working on-line in Thailand even for oversea's companies are actually working in Thailand, that is the physical location they are working, who they of working for and where they are getting paid is irrelevant

See how the law can be interpreted, it's all in the details. I work in the O&G industry and my residence was in Thailand, but none of my work product. I was borderline 180 days in country a year. I used to travel so much that I am a charter member of the IBRT (International Brotherhood of Road Trash).

Edited March 29, 2013 by Loptr

[ubonjoe]

At least Thailand allows you to be out of the country for a total of 180 days to be resident for tax purposes.

I know of country that only allows you 35 days in the country to be exempt from taxes.

[Naam]

At least Thailand allows you to be out of the country for a total of 180 days to be resident for tax purposes.

I know of country that only allows you 35 days in the country to be exempt from taxes.

i know of a country where your tax liability on worldwide income and capital gains is caused by keeping an "abode" in said (no matter how small or shitty) even if you have not entered the country for a decade or more.

i am talking about my home country Germany.

[OxfordWill]

I was thinking we were overdue for an argue about work permits thread.

[Satcommlee]

I was thinking we were overdue for an argue about work permits thread.

I think you are right it's been at least 2 days..

[Tomtomtom69]

I am currently facing a similar situation. My home base is Thailand but I work as a consultant for European manufacturers exporting to Asia. I have no customers in Thailand, I travel outside of Thailand for work and my money is coming in from outside of Thailand.

So I called the Phuket Labour department and asked them about having a work permit. The answer is you need a work permit. In order to obtain the work permit you would need to show the contract with the overseas company stating your kind of job, salary etc. Also you would need to proof that this company is a real, established company, so registration papers or similar.

Just to be sure I asked a friend who is a Thai lawyer to check with them again which exact paper work was needed. The reply she got from a different officer at the same department was: it´s not possible to do. If you work in Thailand, regardless of where your customers are, you need a work permit issued from a Thai company. Overseas contract is not allowed.

So what now!?

Stop wasting your time being concerned about nothing. Technically you are only in Thailand "on business" based on what you just said. You obtain a salary from somewhere else, you even have to travel to other countries on business. This is exactly what I do - I consider myself based partly in China and partly in Thailand; I currently have a work visa (and work permit) for China and for Thailand I don't need anything at this point, not even a visa since I don't even spend more than a month at a time here anyway.

Your only concern is how long do you spend in Thailand at any one time. Since you can't get a work permit based on overseas employment, all you really need is a visa that allows you to be in Thailand when you are not travelling abroad for work. If you travel frequently, like say once a month or so, you may not need any visa at all as long as you don't overstay you can just continue doing what you do without a work permit and most likely without arousing any suspicion.