Is Thailands Ways Any Of Our Business ?

[soi41]

On Thaivisa you often see posters with very strong POV's on the way Thailand is governed. Politically as well as economically. To the point where you even have pro Thaksin/ anti Thaksin fractions here.

As we cannot vote here, most of us pay no or very little tax, who are we to tell the Thais, how to run their country? Plenty of things here, I don't agree with, but as I am in no position to make anything change, why get all excited?

It's a little like Mohammed and Ismail telling you, how to run your local council!

The rice-scheme and more recently the 2 trillion infrastructure bill are 2 good examples of topics, that can get the posters here off their marks. No doubt a lot of money is going to end up in the wrong pockets, on the other hand it is not our money and we are not the ones going to repay the loans. So why care?

Sit back and enjoy the ride with all the positives Thailand still has to offer!

[Almera]

who are we to tell the Thais, how to run their country?

They're not.

They're venting on an Expat internet forum.

You don't know the difference?

[PaullyW]

who are we to tell the Thais, how to run their country?

I like this question because it's far more complex than most understand.

To answer it directly, "we" are members of the world community which, despite the history of nation building, is far less arbitrary than the concept of nation.

If we care about our Thai cousins, then we try to encourage them to improve (yes, from our own perspectives). It's the way the world has been for a long time. We collaborate and teach to each other and learn from each other how to improve our world. In my opinion, it's quite selfish to do the "who are we to try to help them?" thing. Mind you, I am super selfish and cannot be bothered to help them, but it is indeed selfish.

Now, you do have a point that they surely are not obligated to listen. That is their choice. Ours is to express our views just as you have expressed yours.

[jocko]

who are we to tell the Thais, how to run their country?

I like this question because it's far more complex than most understand.

To answer it directly, "we" are members of the world community which, despite the history of nation building, is far less arbitrary than the concept of nation.

If we care about our Thai cousins, then we try to encourage them to improve (yes, from our own perspectives). It's the way the world has been for a long time. We collaborate and teach to each other and learn from each other how to improve our world. In my opinion, it's quite selfish to do the "who are we to try to help them?" thing. Mind you, I am super selfish and cannot be bothered to help them, but it is indeed selfish.

Now, you do have a point that they surely are not obligated to listen. That is their choice. Ours is to express our views just as you have expressed yours.

I understand.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[soi41]

who are we to tell the Thais, how to run their country?

I like this question because it's far more complex than most understand.

To answer it directly, "we" are members of the world community which, despite the history of nation building, is far less arbitrary than the concept of nation.

If we care about our Thai cousins, then we try to encourage them to improve (yes, from our own perspectives). It's the way the world has been for a long time. We collaborate and teach to each other and learn from each other how to improve our world. In my opinion, it's quite selfish to do the "who are we to try to help them?" thing. Mind you, I am super selfish and cannot be bothered to help them, but it is indeed selfish.

Now, you do have a point that they surely are not obligated to listen. That is their choice. Ours is to express our views just as you have expressed yours.

"(yes, from our own perspectives)". What if "we" are wrong? My feeling is, that the average Somchai is happier than the average Joe in the west. So instead of trying to westernize Asia, maybe we should try the other way around, "Asianize" the west?

[PaullyW]

who are we to tell the Thais, how to run their country?

I like this question because it's far more complex than most understand.

To answer it directly, "we" are members of the world community which, despite the history of nation building, is far less arbitrary than the concept of nation.

If we care about our Thai cousins, then we try to encourage them to improve (yes, from our own perspectives). It's the way the world has been for a long time. We collaborate and teach to each other and learn from each other how to improve our world. In my opinion, it's quite selfish to do the "who are we to try to help them?" thing. Mind you, I am super selfish and cannot be bothered to help them, but it is indeed selfish.

Now, you do have a point that they surely are not obligated to listen. That is their choice. Ours is to express our views just as you have expressed yours.

"(yes, from our own perspectives)". What if "we" are wrong? My feeling is, that the average Somchai is happier than the average Joe in the west. So instead of trying to westernize Asia, maybe we should try the other way around, "Asianize" the west?

Our children, when young, are surely happier than they are as adults, and the same can be said of Thai children vs Thai adults, yet, why is that? It is because most of us agree that life's purpose is more complex and varied than simply seeking blind happiness at the expense of many other important human virtues such as safety and stability.

[FunFon]

To be able to understand it, so that we can adapt ourselves and/or find workarounds to avoid trouble and still accomplish our goals, yes.

To just criticise for no purpose or even sillier think that there's any chance of such advocacy actually changing anything, no.

[hellodolly]

who are we to tell the Thais, how to run their country?

I like this question because it's far more complex than most understand.

To answer it directly, "we" are members of the world community which, despite the history of nation building, is far less arbitrary than the concept of nation.

If we care about our Thai cousins, then we try to encourage them to improve (yes, from our own perspectives). It's the way the world has been for a long time. We collaborate and teach to each other and learn from each other how to improve our world. In my opinion, it's quite selfish to do the "who are we to try to help them?" thing. Mind you, I am super selfish and cannot be bothered to help them, but it is indeed selfish.

Now, you do have a point that they surely are not obligated to listen. That is their choice. Ours is to express our views just as you have expressed yours.

A little curious what have you learned from the Thais to improve your world.

That could be a thread on it's own yet we do as Almera says just use this as a forum to vent, share are ideas or just plain for amusement you have to admit some of the posts are quite amusing

As you say we are expressing are views the only problem is we are expressing them to each other and not any one who could really do some thing about them.

Try expressing to Jatuporn that he is a tool.

Let me know how it works out.

Or tell Yingluck that it would be nice if she cut the connection to Dubai and stayed in Thailand to be the Prime Minister rather than flying all over the world doing what the Minister of Foreign Affairs should do and acting as if she was a minister of commerce.

[MrWorldwide]

I've said it before and I'll say it again - if TVers who can read Thai stumbled on a Thai board dedicated almost entirely to bitching about foreigners, there would be a huge outcry. Kicking, screaming and gnashing of teeth. Cries of 'they dont want us !'.

News flash - they dont HAVE to want anyone - it's their country. Might be different if you have a Thai passport, but how many here have such a passport ? Oz doesnt recognise 'dual citizenship', so it would mean handing over my blue passport for a green one - how many of us have the balls to make that committment ?

Time to harden up, Princesses.

[hellodolly]

I've said it before and I'll say it again - if TVers who can read Thai stumbled on a Thai board dedicated almost entirely to bitching about foreigners, there would be a huge outcry. Kicking, screaming and gnashing of teeth. Cries of 'they dont want us !'.

News flash - they dont HAVE to want anyone - it's their country. Might be different if you have a Thai passport, but how many here have such a passport ? Oz doesnt recognise 'dual citizenship', so it would mean handing over my blue passport for a green one - how many of us have the balls to make that committment ?

Time to harden up, Princesses.

I wonder if they are talking about the expats who live here year round or the tourists who expect every thing to be all most free and the service to be excellent even though they are in a 35 baht Pat Thai hole in the wall.

Dam I just remembered we have ones like that here in Chiang Mai who are year round complainers. Funny part about a lot of them if pushed they claim most of their friends are Thais.

[doji]

Isn’t it funny that many expats come to Thailand because it’s so much cheaper than back home? But once they are here, they just start complaining… “why is it not like the west in “this” and “that”?”
Well if Thailand is like where you all came from, then many of you wouldn’t be able to afford living here anyway.

I’m sure many thais are also wondering….if you don’t like it so much, why don’t you go back home?, where you can be a fully legal resident, no more extension or visa run, work in any job you want, have properties in your own name, organized traffic, better education for your kids.. etcs.

So why are many of you still putting up with things you don’t like so much here?
And it’s so ironic to hear many here complaining so much of… many things that are broken and know how to fix just about everything/issues in thailand, while their country is falling apart as we speak LOL. Why don’t you all go back and try to fix your country first, before picking on someone else country?

Don’t you know that many thais would give up the sun and the moon, and would love to have the opportunity to be in your country? ….’cause they think the grass is sure greener over there LOL.

[simple1]

I've said it before and I'll say it again - if TVers who can read Thai stumbled on a Thai board dedicated almost entirely to bitching about foreigners, there would be a huge outcry. Kicking, screaming and gnashing of teeth. Cries of 'they dont want us !'.

News flash - they dont HAVE to want anyone - it's their country. Might be different if you have a Thai passport, but how many here have such a passport ? Oz doesnt recognise 'dual citizenship', so it would mean handing over my blue passport for a green one - how many of us have the balls to make that committment ?

Time to harden up, Princesses.

As of 4 April 2002, there are no restrictions (under Australian law) on Australians holding the citizenship of another country. My wife & stepson have Thai & Oz citizenship with passports & perfectly legal in Oz and Thailand. I hold citizenship for three countries, including Australia. It's the "other" country that may have restrictions for holding dual citizenship

http://www.citizenship.gov.au/current/dual_citizenship/

[Banzai99]

Many are too old to adapt, so they complain instead, old people like a moan, if they had come here at 35 instead of 65, they would have fared better maybe.

[lovetotravel]

Let's not forget many of the members on Thaivisa.com have significant investments here. Property, businesses, jobs. What happens to Thailand is extremely import to these expats.

[FunFon]

Let's not forget many of the members on Thaivisa.com have significant investments here. Property, businesses, jobs. What happens to Thailand is extremely import to these expats.

-

That's exactly the point, more fools they

If someone puts too many eggs in a basket run by idiots where they can't even really know what's going on much less have any influence over it, som nam na. . .

If they'd asked around just a bit, they'd have known, Thailand's a place to come and spend your money, not "invest" it, unless you're so wealthy the amount you put in is a pittance to you and not worth worrying about.

[PaullyW]

Isn’t it funny that many expats come to Thailand because it’s so much cheaper than back home? But once they are here, they just start complaining… “why is it not like the west in “this” and “that”?”

Well if Thailand is like where you all came from, then many of you wouldn’t be able to afford living here anyway.

I’m sure many thais are also wondering….if you don’t like it so much, why don’t you go back home?, where you can be a fully legal resident, no more extension or visa run, work in any job you want, have properties in your own name, organized traffic, better education for your kids.. etcs.

So why are many of you still putting up with things you don’t like so much here?

And it’s so ironic to hear many here complaining so much of… many things that are broken and know how to fix just about everything/issues in thailand, while their country is falling apart as we speak LOL. Why don’t you all go back and try to fix your country first, before picking on someone else country?

Don’t you know that many thais would give up the sun and the moon, and would love to have the opportunity to be in your country? ….’cause they think the grass is sure greener over there LOL.

I know who are you talking about here, and I get the sentiment. BUT, not really...

What I complain about most are things that are purely stupid. A place being cheap should not require rampant stupidity and danger.

Most of the Thais I work with, more than half of whom have lived abroad and been partially educated abroad (most in fully developed countries, and even those who have lived and studied in China) have much in common with us bitching and moaning expats. Sure, they are slightly less biased perhaps because they have seen the Thai side thoroughly, and they sometimes seem to criticise Thailand slightly less harshly for this reason, but they bitch and moan as well.

Which Western or developed Eastern countries are falling apart? Much of the developed world economy is experiencing challenges, but you simply cannot really equate that to what is happening in Thailand. It's not a fair equation. Thailand is lacking deeply fundamental structures (like the rule of law rather than rule of man, respect for human life and dignity) and ideals of most of the developed world. Respect for education and a desire to integrate (even a little) and learn from and share experiences with the world community. They are lacking. They are lacking curiosity about the world around them, something most of the developed world moved beyond many centuries ago. When you find Thais who do have some understanding of right and wrong, they are most often lacking in any courage to take a stand on the issue. Rather, they allow fear of negative consequences rule them and cower away.

These are not things that can be fixed easily or quickly. Some of them are things that will likely require generations of Thais to improve upon, least they install a ruler who wants to move them forward quickly in one generation ala China.

The developed country issues are most heavily at the moment those which are transient (economics) by comparison and can be fixed relatively quickly.

[aussiebebe]

Let's not forget many of the members on Thaivisa.com have significant investments here. Property, businesses, jobs. What happens to Thailand is extremely import to these expats.

-

That's exactly the point, more fools they

If someone puts too many eggs in a basket run by idiots where they can't even really know what's going on much less have any influence over it, som nam na. . .

If they'd asked around just a bit, they'd have known, Thailand's a place to come and spend your money, not "invest" it, unless you're so wealthy the amount you put in is a pittance to you and not worth worrying about.

You should re-read Almera's response - this is an internet forum for foreigners. Writing something on here doesn't mean you care, or are getting involved, or making it your business - it's here so that everyone in the world can find information about the way Thailand is run and the way Thai people behave. That's all.

I'm one of the board members 'soi41' was possibly referring to; I responded to another thread asking where the funds from the rice-scheme went and I helpfully pointed out that my wife gets paid to vote. So what? He asked, I let him know. It doesn't mean I care, or I think I'm Thai, or I'm interfering in Thailand's practices, I'm just writing about it on an internet forum. If anything, it's helpful to anyone who wants to know, or is interested in Thailand. The more people that write about what happens, the more people will know.

[473geo]

There are many who come to the forum to have their daily vent, throw out a few insults at other posters, prominent Thai people, and criticise Mr average Thai thinking, have a proverbial beer and disappear, until the next visit......the political and general arena on Tvisa are the platform for this type of poster. Care about Thailand? interest in Thai politics? <deleted>!! most would highly appreciate a massive drop in the Thai baht value, and screw the Thai people. Those that genuinely wish to assist Thai progression do not vent on a forum, they utilise a more subtle approach. So stop kidding yourselves guys.

[PaullyW]

I've said it before and I'll say it again - if TVers who can read Thai stumbled on a Thai board dedicated almost entirely to bitching about foreigners, there would be a huge outcry. Kicking, screaming and gnashing of teeth. Cries of 'they dont want us !'.

News flash - they dont HAVE to want anyone - it's their country. Might be different if you have a Thai passport, but how many here have such a passport ? Oz doesnt recognise 'dual citizenship', so it would mean handing over my blue passport for a green one - how many of us have the balls to make that committment ?

Time to harden up, Princesses.

As of 4 April 2002, there are no restrictions (under Australian law) on Australians holding the citizenship of another country. My wife & stepson have Thai & Oz citizenship with passports & perfectly legal in Oz and Thailand. I hold citizenship for three countries, including Australia. It's the "other" country that may have restrictions for holding dual citizenship

http://www.citizenship.gov.au/current/dual_citizenship/

You'd think that a person who is truly worldwide with business interests across the globe would know something so fundamental like that...

Edited March 31, 2013 by PaullyW

[slapout]

I have it from good authority (Thai people) that many Thai do monitor TV on a regular basis.

so with that in mind, and knowing the perchance the Thais, I know, have for gossip, I post what I consider helpfu hints, the falacy of some of their endevers/projects, etc.

I

[soi41]

Isn’t it funny that many expats come to Thailand because it’s so much cheaper than back home? But once they are here, they just start complaining… “why is it not like the west in “this” and “that”?”

Well if Thailand is like where you all came from, then many of you wouldn’t be able to afford living here anyway.

I’m sure many thais are also wondering….if you don’t like it so much, why don’t you go back home?, where you can be a fully legal resident, no more extension or visa run, work in any job you want, have properties in your own name, organized traffic, better education for your kids.. etcs.

So why are many of you still putting up with things you don’t like so much here?

And it’s so ironic to hear many here complaining so much of… many things that are broken and know how to fix just about everything/issues in thailand, while their country is falling apart as we speak LOL. Why don’t you all go back and try to fix your country first, before picking on someone else country?

Don’t you know that many thais would give up the sun and the moon, and would love to have the opportunity to be in your country? ….’cause they think the grass is sure greener over there LOL.

I know who are you talking about here, and I get the sentiment. BUT, not really...

What I complain about most are things that are purely stupid. A place being cheap should not require rampant stupidity and danger.

Most of the Thais I work with, more than half of whom have lived abroad and been partially educated abroad (most in fully developed countries, and even those who have lived and studied in China) have much in common with us bitching and moaning expats. Sure, they are slightly less biased perhaps because they have seen the Thai side thoroughly, and they sometimes seem to criticise Thailand slightly less harshly for this reason, but they bitch and moan as well.

Which Western or developed Eastern countries are falling apart? Much of the developed world economy is experiencing challenges, but you simply cannot really equate that to what is happening in Thailand. It's not a fair equation. Thailand is lacking deeply fundamental structures (like the rule of law rather than rule of man, respect for human life and dignity) and ideals of most of the developed world. Respect for education and a desire to integrate (even a little) and learn from and share experiences with the world community. They are lacking. They are lacking curiosity about the world around them, something most of the developed world moved beyond many centuries ago. When you find Thais who do have some understanding of right and wrong, they are most often lacking in any courage to take a stand on the issue. Rather, they allow fear of negative consequences rule them and cower away.

These are not things that can be fixed easily or quickly. Some of them are things that will likely require generations of Thais to improve upon, least they install a ruler who wants to move them forward quickly in one generation ala China.

The developed country issues are most heavily at the moment those which are transient (economics) by comparison and can be fixed relatively quickly.

Then how come, that "we" from a developed country, with all our educational advantages, our feeling for social fairplay in society and our curiosity for the world around us, still make the choice to move here in the first place??

It is not like the information about the negative sides to Thailand is not out there.

When I moved here more than 10 years ago, I knew all about the nonexistant rule of law, the social injustice and the rampant corruption. Still made the decission to move here, but I don't complain about the state of affairs here, as I am here by choice.

When 90% of Thais think that corruption is part of (and accepted) normal business-practice, who am I to teach them otherwise?

[PaullyW]

Isn’t it funny that many expats come to Thailand because it’s so much cheaper than back home? But once they are here, they just start complaining… “why is it not like the west in “this” and “that”?”

Well if Thailand is like where you all came from, then many of you wouldn’t be able to afford living here anyway.

I’m sure many thais are also wondering….if you don’t like it so much, why don’t you go back home?, where you can be a fully legal resident, no more extension or visa run, work in any job you want, have properties in your own name, organized traffic, better education for your kids.. etcs.

So why are many of you still putting up with things you don’t like so much here?

And it’s so ironic to hear many here complaining so much of… many things that are broken and know how to fix just about everything/issues in thailand, while their country is falling apart as we speak LOL. Why don’t you all go back and try to fix your country first, before picking on someone else country?

Don’t you know that many thais would give up the sun and the moon, and would love to have the opportunity to be in your country? ….’cause they think the grass is sure greener over there LOL.

I know who are you talking about here, and I get the sentiment. BUT, not really...

What I complain about most are things that are purely stupid. A place being cheap should not require rampant stupidity and danger.

Most of the Thais I work with, more than half of whom have lived abroad and been partially educated abroad (most in fully developed countries, and even those who have lived and studied in China) have much in common with us bitching and moaning expats. Sure, they are slightly less biased perhaps because they have seen the Thai side thoroughly, and they sometimes seem to criticise Thailand slightly less harshly for this reason, but they bitch and moan as well.

Which Western or developed Eastern countries are falling apart? Much of the developed world economy is experiencing challenges, but you simply cannot really equate that to what is happening in Thailand. It's not a fair equation. Thailand is lacking deeply fundamental structures (like the rule of law rather than rule of man, respect for human life and dignity) and ideals of most of the developed world. Respect for education and a desire to integrate (even a little) and learn from and share experiences with the world community. They are lacking. They are lacking curiosity about the world around them, something most of the developed world moved beyond many centuries ago. When you find Thais who do have some understanding of right and wrong, they are most often lacking in any courage to take a stand on the issue. Rather, they allow fear of negative consequences rule them and cower away.

These are not things that can be fixed easily or quickly. Some of them are things that will likely require generations of Thais to improve upon, least they install a ruler who wants to move them forward quickly in one generation ala China.

The developed country issues are most heavily at the moment those which are transient (economics) by comparison and can be fixed relatively quickly.

Then how come, that "we" from a developed country, with all our educational advantages, our feeling for social fairplay in society and our curiosity for the world around us, still make the choice to move here in the first place??

It is not like the information about the negative sides to Thailand is not out there.

When I moved here more than 10 years ago, I knew all about the nonexistant rule of law, the social injustice and the rampant corruption. Still made the decission to move here, but I don't complain about the state of affairs here, as I am here by choice.

When 90% of Thais think that corruption is part of (and accepted) normal business-practice, who am I to teach them otherwise?

There are all kinds of reasons why people are here.

1. some were sent here by their companies

2. some have sacrificed to move here to make their loved ones happy

3. some are interested in learning and know that learning / experiencing something new is not always fun or will provide us more comfort than our previous lives/locales

4. some who complain incessantly may not much like it here or anywhere else in the world they've been- some are simply not impressed with the world

5. others who complain about Thailand incessantly actually like more about the place than they dislike but why should it stop them from sharing their opinions?

As for your question concern who you are to tell them otherwise, I imagine you are someone who is selfish, like me, and doesn't care much abou them at all. If you did care, your position might be different.

[FunFon]

Let's not forget many of the members on Thaivisa.com have significant investments here. Property, businesses, jobs. What happens to Thailand is extremely import to these expats.

-

That's exactly the point, more fools they

If someone puts too many eggs in a basket run by idiots where they can't even really know what's going on much less have any influence over it, som nam na. . .

If they'd asked around just a bit, they'd have known, Thailand's a place to come and spend your money, not "invest" it, unless you're so wealthy the amount you put in is a pittance to you and not worth worrying about.

You should re-read Almera's response - this is an internet forum for foreigners. Writing something on here doesn't mean you care, or are getting involved, or making it your business - it's here so that everyone in the world can find information about the way Thailand is run and the way Thai people behave. That's all.

I'm one of the board members 'soi41' was possibly referring to; I responded to another thread asking where the funds from the rice-scheme went and I helpfully pointed out that my wife gets paid to vote. So what? He asked, I let him know. It doesn't mean I care, or I think I'm Thai, or I'm interfering in Thailand's practices, I'm just writing about it on an internet forum. If anything, it's helpful to anyone who wants to know, or is interested in Thailand. The more people that write about what happens, the more people will know.

-

I have no idea why you are addressing these comments to me, I have posted nothing that isn't in completely alignment with everything you say, in fact mirrored this exact sentiment right in this thread here.

The post you quoted was simply addressing love2travel's attempt to justify foreigner's high level of emotional engagement, and possibly even public activism in Thai politics because some farang have invested a lot of their money here and therefore have skin in the game.

The point of which your post seems to completely ignore?

[473geo]

I wonder how many of the prolific posters have actually bothered to communicate with the management or minister concerned when they express a negative opinion........that would be constructive....for those that consider their opinion valid you can obtain the E-mail address of most ministers if you care to look

[nidieunimaitre]

QUOTE FROM THE OP: "most of us pay no or very little tax"

My god! How ignorant can a taxpayer be?????

For your information, EVERY FARANG is a taxpayer in Thailand, even tourists!

[JLCrab]

From #15 above: where they can't even really know what's going on much less have any influence over it, som nam na. . .

At the request of some Thai lawyers and political scientists, I helped draft an article of the 2007 Constitution of the Kingdom of Thailand.

[473geo]

From #15 above: where they can't even really know what's going on much less have any influence over it, som nam na. . .

At the request of some Thai lawyers and political scientists, I helped draft an article of the 2007 Constitution of the Kingdom of Thailand.

And your point being?

[JLCrab]

My point being it is not impossible for a farang to have influence on the Thai legal system.

[Rancid]

How excited are the expats here about the Muslim immigrants back home home pushing to change their countries, often in ways that would make them seem like some stone age backwater.

So if that idea doesn't excite then why would the Thais want us trying to change their country and why would you want to? Even leaving that aside you are not going to change anything anyway.

Suck it up and relax.

[JLCrab]

I at least was not and am not interested in changing anything. I only got involved because I was asked to get involved based upon my documented record in international legal affairs.