Prem Says Corruption Is The 'worst' Crime Of The Nation

[steveG]

Its a way of life in Thailand and very unlikely to change. Anyway the Thai economy is doing extremely well at present despite "corruption".

Where does all the corrrupt money go? I imagine it stays in the country therefore not detracting from the economy.

[tpop]

i encountered this

http://thepeakoilpoet.blogspot.com/2013/04/honesty-about-dishonesty.html

i think it says it all about corruption

t

[jaapfries]

I have to say that I agree with this, since what is so often forgotten is that "Corruption" is a short form of saying No rule of Law, which in Thailand is true both at the macro level [politically motivated fashionable cases notwithstanding but no real ability to hold to account] and at the micro level 100thb to ride without a motorcycle helmet.

If no one sees the law as a real operational framework for the society, then the society itself and that very underpinning which is required for a modern integrated community to function may well be lost.

+1

Ayn Rand - as per my signature below.

Just to make sure that all people can read this brilliant and true Ayn Ryand statement:

"When you see that money is flowing to those who deal, not in goods, but in favours, when you see that men get richer by

graft and by pull than by work... when you see corruption being rewarded and honesty becoming a self-sacrifice, you may

know that your society is doomed."

- Ayn Rand

not to mention:

The Ideal Form of Government is by somehow electing a Benevolent Dictator . . . .

Edited April 4, 2013 by metisdead
Over sized font resized to normal.

[Hobiecat]

Sadly corruption is instilled in Thai kids right from the beginning when their parents have to bribe teachers to get them in decent classes. Contributing to the teachers tea fund. No different than the BIB.

Edited April 4, 2013 by metisdead
Bold font removed.

[wildorchid]

Wrong. The worst crime is not being corrupt. It is not doing anything to stop it, when you have that power. Corruption is a top-down affair. It has permeated Thai society like terminal cancer. What is the purpose of making such statements? Survey after survey shows that 75% of the people approve of bribery. HTF are you going to stop it?

I think you find it is, 75% approve "if it benefit's them"

[Locationthailand]

"... The general also said Thai people are lucky to have a king like His Majesty King Bhumibol Adulyadej who has been the perfect example for all Thais,..' the majority of whom have chosen to ignore. But I guess that is the 'Thainess' we Farang just don't understand...

[ginjag]

Its a way of life in Thailand and very unlikely to change. Anyway the Thai economy is doing extremely well at present despite "corruption".

Where does all the corrrupt money go? I imagine it stays in the country therefore not detracting from the economy.

Me thinks the corruption money should be in the kitty here to spend on the needy-not the greedy.

The country is doing well apart from the massive debt, over 2 trillion--and to add to that they want another 2,2 trillion for this rail and other.

Yes they are doing well, RICE comes to mind and scores of other. Think what it could be like if transparent, and governed well.

[smutcakes]

Its a way of life in Thailand and very unlikely to change. Anyway the Thai economy is doing extremely well at present despite "corruption".

Where does all the corrrupt money go? I imagine it stays in the country therefore not detracting from the economy.

Me thinks the corruption money should be in the kitty here to spend on the needy-not the greedy.

The country is doing well apart from the massive debt, over 2 trillion--and to add to that they want another 2,2 trillion for this rail and other.

Yes they are doing well, RICE comes to mind and scores of other. Think what it could be like if transparent, and governed well.

I agree, but why would the current people be any different to what has been going on forever in Thailand.

[jayboy]

Deleted Quote edited out

Is he? I"ll take your word for it.Actually what I have noticed in recent years is the criticism of corruption has become code for the criticism of democratic politics and politicians in general (except those favoured by the old order even if like a former Deputy PM they come with a filthy smell).The not so hidden message is that Thais should be directed by their betters and not presume to have their own opinions.


It's quite clever I admit because if one takes issue with it one is conniving at corruption and God knows it's no fun defending Thai politicians. Edited April 4, 2013 by Scott

[DiNiro]

Sadly corruption is instilled in Thai kids right from the beginning when their parents have to bribe teachers to get them in decent classes. Contributing to the teachers tea fund. No different than the BIB.

Kids are hip to the facts early on.

Recently in Pattaya, I asked a youngster on a motorbike 'where is your helmet'?

He replied. 'only farangs need one.'

[khunken]

He's 100% right. But of course the Thaksin acolytes always use the 'but, but the Dems, Abhisit, all previous regimes, etc, etc'

Most of the coups that happened during my long relationship with Thailand were because of corruption.

Another line of thought says that it won't be eradicated until poverty is also eradicated. This is false as the worst participants & beneficiaries are rich with the current political class leading the way. The sort of corruption supported by ordinary Thais in polls is petty corruption with any dealing with the BIB (for example) usually involving a bribe. Yes, it also helps speed up paperwork in the bureaucracy.

Yet another line of thought is that' it happens everywhere'. Yes it does but that's not an excuse to do nothing.

I feel it will take time for the Thai population to realise that those they vote for (even when paid) are there to benefit themselves & not the ordinary people. It may well take a crash of the economy, which is what the PTP are headed for with their mismanagement by over-the-top populism without proper checks & balances.

[smutcakes]

He's 100% right. But of course the Thaksin acolytes always use the 'but, but the Dems, Abhisit, all previous regimes, etc, etc'

Most of the coups that happened during my long relationship with Thailand were because of corruption.

Another line of thought says that it won't be eradicated until poverty is also eradicated. This is false as the worst participants & beneficiaries are rich with the current political class leading the way. The sort of corruption supported by ordinary Thais in polls is petty corruption with any dealing with the BIB (for example) usually involving a bribe. Yes, it also helps speed up paperwork in the bureaucracy.

Yet another line of thought is that' it happens everywhere'. Yes it does but that's not an excuse to do nothing.

I feel it will take time for the Thai population to realise that those they vote for (even when paid) are there to benefit themselves & not the ordinary people. It may well take a crash of the economy, which is what the PTP are headed for with their mismanagement by over-the-top populism without proper checks & balances.

I generally again agree with you, but please provide some insight into the bold. If you can provide any proper financial argument into why what they are doing, which has been done the world over for years, and which the opposition are not even bothered about I will stop posting here. (Maybe ) If it goes on for decades yes, i agree, but now, no. If it continues to go on, not backed up by economic growth then there will be a problem.

[thaicbr]

To be fair there HAS been corruption in ALL governments in Thailand for as far back as can be remembered. BUT the thing is in recent years it seems to have been getting bigger and bigger were its not just a few thousand here and there or even tens of thousands but millions at a core level.

Granted i may be wrong as i have never come across it myself but there are convincing texts available to quantify it.

One of the biggest problems is that here in Thailand politicians are not just politicians but it's so lucrative it's families involved at all sectors of government.

Just look at the Culture Ministers family for an idea.

[SteeleJoe]

To be fair there HAS been corruption in ALL governments in Thailand for as far back as can be remembered. BUT the thing is in recent years it seems to have been getting bigger and bigger were its not just a few thousand here and there or even tens of thousands but millions at a core level.

Millions of DOLLARS were made in the 50's, 60's and 70's...

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa ap

[Scott]

Nonsensical, off-topic posts and replies have been deleted. References to the Royal Family are not allowed.

[smutcakes]

To be fair there HAS been corruption in ALL governments in Thailand for as far back as can be remembered. BUT the thing is in recent years it seems to have been getting bigger and bigger were its not just a few thousand here and there or even tens of thousands but millions at a core level.

Granted i may be wrong as i have never come across it myself but there are convincing texts available to quantify it.

One of the biggest problems is that here in Thailand politicians are not just politicians but it's so lucrative it's families involved at all sectors of government.

Just look at the Culture Ministers family for an idea.

I am not going to disagree with you as it is impossible to quantify or know, but given it is only the last 15 years or so that the media are being allowed to pay lip service to highlighting corruption, i dare say it is probably less than over the previous years. It may not stop them, but it may make them think twice on how or how much they can get away with.

Again as I said, its pure speculation. Many people more informed than me or you agree and disagree on that. Not that the people involved care what we think.

[cmiuc]

not to mention that right now, i see so much blatant corruption all trying to profit from the ASEAN migration... trying to get as much as they can, coz once their in... now the legal system can profit..

that is if the ASEAN unification will work... i think the system is just to corrupt for it to really become effective...

Being out of THailand for 4 years and coming back... its like black and white... NO GRAY AREA here...

[muttley]

To be fair there HAS been corruption in ALL governments in Thailand for as far back as can be remembered. BUT the thing is in recent years it seems to have been getting bigger and bigger were its not just a few thousand here and there or even tens of thousands but millions at a core level.

Granted i may be wrong as i have never come across it myself but there are convincing texts available to quantify it.

One of the biggest problems is that here in Thailand politicians are not just politicians but it's so lucrative it's families involved at all sectors of government.

Just look at the Culture Ministers family for an idea.

"not just a few thousand here and there or even tens of thousands but millions at a core level.

Granted i may be wrong as i have never come across it myself but there are convincing texts available to quantify it."

Well at least you admit it, thank you. If only a few more on here did the same.

[bigbamboo]

If there hadn't been unprecedented corruption instigated at the very highest government level then there would have been no coup, no years of strife and Thaksin would now probably be the most celebrated politician in ASEAN.

But Thai politicians being what they are enough is never enough.

[rbrooks]

Many of these posts are not clearly written, but I get the impression that some people think poverty causes corruption. Huh? Poor people aren't the cause of corruption, they are the victims. Only people in a position of power and influence can benefit from corruption, and it is so ingrained in Thailand they seem to think it is their right.

Eliminating endemic corruption won't be easy and can't be done quickly, but two key steps are open government--make government salaries and benefits public, along with opening the books on all government projects; and freeing the press from the ridiculous libel laws--let reporters report verifiable facts even if they embarrass the rich and powerful. Of course then you have to protect the reporters; it will take a brave reporter and publisher to be the first to print a story about the obvious wealth of modestly paid police chiefs and military commanders.

This system is done in most western countries today to allow check and balances of our politicians and give the citizen's the right to know where their tax money is going to. Unfortunately in most Asian countries like Thailand and the Philippines people in government generally hit the lottery when elected by using their position and power like Thaksin.

[khunken]

He's 100% right. But of course the Thaksin acolytes always use the 'but, but the Dems, Abhisit, all previous regimes, etc, etc'

Most of the coups that happened during my long relationship with Thailand were because of corruption.

Another line of thought says that it won't be eradicated until poverty is also eradicated. This is false as the worst participants & beneficiaries are rich with the current political class leading the way. The sort of corruption supported by ordinary Thais in polls is petty corruption with any dealing with the BIB (for example) usually involving a bribe. Yes, it also helps speed up paperwork in the bureaucracy.

Yet another line of thought is that' it happens everywhere'. Yes it does but that's not an excuse to do nothing.

I feel it will take time for the Thai population to realise that those they vote for (even when paid) are there to benefit themselves & not the ordinary people. It may well take a crash of the economy, which is what the PTP are headed for with their mismanagement by over-the-top populism without proper checks & balances.

I generally again agree with you, but please provide some insight into the bold. If you can provide any proper financial argument into why what they are doing, which has been done the world over for years, and which the opposition are not even bothered about I will stop posting here. (Maybe ) If it goes on for decades yes, i agree, but now, no. If it continues to go on, not backed up by economic growth then there will be a problem.

OK I'l give you an answer but first disagree that the opposition 'are not bothered about'. You must have missed much of the debate about the B2.2tn budget/loan where the Dems have been very vocal in their opposition to it.

There is a limit to how much debt a government can take on - just look at Greece. Secondly, we don't know how the B2.2tn is going to be provided & PTP promises are just not good enough. Thirdly, PTP swept B1.14tn of FIDF under the BOT carpet and are borrowing more & more to finance the rice scheme. All this & more is unsustainable in the medium to long-term.

There are rumblings of a property bubble in parts of the country - Pattaya, Phuket & even parts of Bangkok. Economic growth can help, no doubt, but the question is 'is it strong enough'.

I'm not saying that the economy will collapse tomorrow but it is likely if the money keeps flowing out of the treasury (& the banks) into pockets that are unable to pay it back.

[smutcakes]

He's 100% right. But of course the Thaksin acolytes always use the 'but, but the Dems, Abhisit, all previous regimes, etc, etc'

Most of the coups that happened during my long relationship with Thailand were because of corruption.

Another line of thought says that it won't be eradicated until poverty is also eradicated. This is false as the worst participants & beneficiaries are rich with the current political class leading the way. The sort of corruption supported by ordinary Thais in polls is petty corruption with any dealing with the BIB (for example) usually involving a bribe. Yes, it also helps speed up paperwork in the bureaucracy.

Yet another line of thought is that' it happens everywhere'. Yes it does but that's not an excuse to do nothing.

I feel it will take time for the Thai population to realise that those they vote for (even when paid) are there to benefit themselves & not the ordinary people. It may well take a crash of the economy, which is what the PTP are headed for with their mismanagement by over-the-top populism without proper checks & balances.

I generally again agree with you, but please provide some insight into the bold. If you can provide any proper financial argument into why what they are doing, which has been done the world over for years, and which the opposition are not even bothered about I will stop posting here. (Maybe ) If it goes on for decades yes, i agree, but now, no. If it continues to go on, not backed up by economic growth then there will be a problem.

OK I'l give you an answer but first disagree that the opposition 'are not bothered about'. You must have missed much of the debate about the B2.2tn budget/loan where the Dems have been very vocal in their opposition to it.

There is a limit to how much debt a government can take on - just look at Greece. Secondly, we don't know how the B2.2tn is going to be provided & PTP promises are just not good enough. Thirdly, PTP swept B1.14tn of FIDF under the BOT carpet and are borrowing more & more to finance the rice scheme. All this & more is unsustainable in the medium to long-term.

There are rumblings of a property bubble in parts of the country - Pattaya, Phuket & even parts of Bangkok. Economic growth can help, no doubt, but the question is 'is it strong enough'.

I'm not saying that the economy will collapse tomorrow but it is likely if the money keeps flowing out of the treasury (& the banks) into pockets that are unable to pay it back.

The potential property bubble has been occurring for years. To much stock and not enough demand, everyone knows that and it has been happening for years. The difference to other countries is that in comparison the prices are relatively low, and few are bought with bank loans from Thailand.

Your numbers are fine, i am not disputing it, what i am disputing is that people like Korn are on record saying he is not against the loan on international TV, he is against the lack of transparency which i agree with. Talking about Greece, you are talking completely ends of the scale. One can go to the complete opposite and most draconian of any scale, it does not make it relevant. the two countries are completely different in all respects.

[ThailandNoob]

He's 100% right. But of course the Thaksin acolytes always use the 'but, but the Dems, Abhisit, all previous regimes, etc, etc'

Most of the coups that happened during my long relationship with Thailand were because of corruption.

Another line of thought says that it won't be eradicated until poverty is also eradicated. This is false as the worst participants & beneficiaries are rich with the current political class leading the way. The sort of corruption supported by ordinary Thais in polls is petty corruption with any dealing with the BIB (for example) usually involving a bribe. Yes, it also helps speed up paperwork in the bureaucracy.

Yet another line of thought is that' it happens everywhere'. Yes it does but that's not an excuse to do nothing.

I feel it will take time for the Thai population to realise that those they vote for (even when paid) are there to benefit themselves & not the ordinary people. It may well take a crash of the economy, which is what the PTP are headed for with their mismanagement by over-the-top populism without proper checks & balances.

Are you saying that corruption in a government justifies a military coup? As if the Thai army is some paragon of incorruptibility. All a coup does is increase the prospects for corruption, since a dictators do not need to worry about getting voted out of office no matter what they get exposed doing.

Yes I too can find fault with a lot of the policies of the Shinawatras. Maybe their policies will cause a crash of the economy, which could well turn the population against them. But even though there would be some short-term economic pain, in the long run such an outcome is infinitely preferable to having the government removed by yet another coup. The electorate will learn from their mistake, and demand more from the next set of politicians that they vote in as replacements.

However I highly doubt that it would be the old elite, who cannot even put on a mildly convincing show of governing for ordinary people. Who here really believes that they launched the coup out of benevolence for the Thai people, as opposed to a desire to shore up their own hegemony?

[smutcakes]

He's 100% right. But of course the Thaksin acolytes always use the 'but, but the Dems, Abhisit, all previous regimes, etc, etc'

Most of the coups that happened during my long relationship with Thailand were because of corruption.

Another line of thought says that it won't be eradicated until poverty is also eradicated. This is false as the worst participants & beneficiaries are rich with the current political class leading the way. The sort of corruption supported by ordinary Thais in polls is petty corruption with any dealing with the BIB (for example) usually involving a bribe. Yes, it also helps speed up paperwork in the bureaucracy.

Yet another line of thought is that' it happens everywhere'. Yes it does but that's not an excuse to do nothing.

I feel it will take time for the Thai population to realise that those they vote for (even when paid) are there to benefit themselves & not the ordinary people. It may well take a crash of the economy, which is what the PTP are headed for with their mismanagement by over-the-top populism without proper checks & balances.

Are you saying that corruption in a government justifies a military coup? As if the Thai army is some paragon of incorruptibility. All a coup does is increase the prospects for corruption, since a dictators do not need to worry about getting voted out of office no matter what they get exposed doing.

Yes I too can find fault with a lot of the policies of the Shinawatras. Maybe their policies will cause a crash of the economy, which could well turn the population against them. But even though there would be some short-term economic pain, in the long run such an outcome is infinitely preferable to having the government removed by yet another coup. The electorate will learn from their mistake, and demand more from the next set of politicians that they vote in as replacements.

However I highly doubt that it would be the old elite, who cannot even put on a mildly convincing show of governing for ordinary people. Who here really believes that they launched the coup out of benevolence for the Thai people, as opposed to a desire to shore up their own hegemony?

Great post, and my thoughts exactly. Let the system take its course however painful.

[SantiSuk]

As President of the Privvy Council he could make a start by promoting an unfettered press. Thailand will never develop a functioning Third Estate without one

[khunken]

He's 100% right. But of course the Thaksin acolytes always use the 'but, but the Dems, Abhisit, all previous regimes, etc, etc'

Most of the coups that happened during my long relationship with Thailand were because of corruption.

Another line of thought says that it won't be eradicated until poverty is also eradicated. This is false as the worst participants & beneficiaries are rich with the current political class leading the way. The sort of corruption supported by ordinary Thais in polls is petty corruption with any dealing with the BIB (for example) usually involving a bribe. Yes, it also helps speed up paperwork in the bureaucracy.

Yet another line of thought is that' it happens everywhere'. Yes it does but that's not an excuse to do nothing.

I feel it will take time for the Thai population to realise that those they vote for (even when paid) are there to benefit themselves & not the ordinary people. It may well take a crash of the economy, which is what the PTP are headed for with their mismanagement by over-the-top populism without proper checks & balances.

I generally again agree with you, but please provide some insight into the bold. If you can provide any proper financial argument into why what they are doing, which has been done the world over for years, and which the opposition are not even bothered about I will stop posting here. (Maybe ) If it goes on for decades yes, i agree, but now, no. If it continues to go on, not backed up by economic growth then there will be a problem.

OK I'l give you an answer but first disagree that the opposition 'are not bothered about'. You must have missed much of the debate about the B2.2tn budget/loan where the Dems have been very vocal in their opposition to it.

There is a limit to how much debt a government can take on - just look at Greece. Secondly, we don't know how the B2.2tn is going to be provided & PTP promises are just not good enough. Thirdly, PTP swept B1.14tn of FIDF under the BOT carpet and are borrowing more & more to finance the rice scheme. All this & more is unsustainable in the medium to long-term.

There are rumblings of a property bubble in parts of the country - Pattaya, Phuket & even parts of Bangkok. Economic growth can help, no doubt, but the question is 'is it strong enough'.

I'm not saying that the economy will collapse tomorrow but it is likely if the money keeps flowing out of the treasury (& the banks) into pockets that are unable to pay it back.

The potential property bubble has been occurring for years. To much stock and not enough demand, everyone knows that and it has been happening for years. The difference to other countries is that in comparison the prices are relatively low, and few are bought with bank loans from Thailand.

Your numbers are fine, i am not disputing it, what i am disputing is that people like Korn are on record saying he is not against the loan on international TV, he is against the lack of transparency which i agree with. Talking about Greece, you are talking completely ends of the scale. One can go to the complete opposite and most draconian of any scale, it does not make it relevant. the two countries are completely different in all respects.

With regard to property I agree with your second sentence, Not the third however. Most property (houses, condos) are bought with bank loans from local banks. I do not think that a property bubble is imminent though - it is simmering.

There are certain important similarities between Greece & Thailand. Both had (Greece) & have (Thailand) corrupt governments who fiddled the amount of government debt to make it look better - as I mentioned with the FIDF fiddle. Both rely on tourism for an important revenue earner. The difference is in social welfare benefits & currency freedom. But it is the former that caused the Greek economy to crash - lack of confidence in government bonds held by banks all over Europe. Yes, Thailand has the currency option but that is precisely when a crash occurs.

That's my lot, Smutcakes. I've answered your questions - up to you to agree or not.

[khunken]

He's 100% right. But of course the Thaksin acolytes always use the 'but, but the Dems, Abhisit, all previous regimes, etc, etc'

Most of the coups that happened during my long relationship with Thailand were because of corruption.

Another line of thought says that it won't be eradicated until poverty is also eradicated. This is false as the worst participants & beneficiaries are rich with the current political class leading the way. The sort of corruption supported by ordinary Thais in polls is petty corruption with any dealing with the BIB (for example) usually involving a bribe. Yes, it also helps speed up paperwork in the bureaucracy.

Yet another line of thought is that' it happens everywhere'. Yes it does but that's not an excuse to do nothing.

I feel it will take time for the Thai population to realise that those they vote for (even when paid) are there to benefit themselves & not the ordinary people. It may well take a crash of the economy, which is what the PTP are headed for with their mismanagement by over-the-top populism without proper checks & balances.

Are you saying that corruption in a government justifies a military coup? As if the Thai army is some paragon of incorruptibility. All a coup does is increase the prospects for corruption, since a dictators do not need to worry about getting voted out of office no matter what they get exposed doing.

Yes I too can find fault with a lot of the policies of the Shinawatras. Maybe their policies will cause a crash of the economy, which could well turn the population against them. But even though there would be some short-term economic pain, in the long run such an outcome is infinitely preferable to having the government removed by yet another coup. The electorate will learn from their mistake, and demand more from the next set of politicians that they vote in as replacements.

However I highly doubt that it would be the old elite, who cannot even put on a mildly convincing show of governing for ordinary people. Who here really believes that they launched the coup out of benevolence for the Thai people, as opposed to a desire to shore up their own hegemony?

Yes, sometimes it does justify a coup especially when there is no other option available. The last coup was bloodless, the previous one not so. The last coup actually installed a government, not perfect but certainly better than the previous one.

IMO, the government installed by the coup weren't given enough time to clean up Thai politics & the worst agency which was & still is the police. I'm not saying that the military are anyway near perfect but they are certainly third behind Thaksin's regimes & the police in corruption.

You seem to have swallowed the PTP/red shirt propaganda about elites here. The biggest & most powerful elite is the billionaire business cartel whose main thrust is to maintain near (& sometimes actual) monopolies not in any way beneficial to ordinary Thais. It has been some considerable time since any old elite has governed here.

Lastly, vote buying has been endemic here for quite a while - except in the 2007 constitutional referendum where it was forcefully stopped. The mantra - so often heard on TV - that the elected government won the most votes, therefore it should be allowed to govern without any checks & balances. has become a laughing stock to those who think for themselves.

[surangw]

seems like the ones that get on this band wagon are not getting their share

[bigbamboo]

As President of the Privvy Council he could make a start by promoting an unfettered press. Thailand will never develop a functioning Third Estate without one

Fourth estate surely?

[h90]

And this coming from a man, who made his fortune by hard psysical labour !

he was soldier in the war....