Norwegian Killed In Traffic Accident In Thailand

[pattayadingo]

Very sad to hear the Norwegian died and that his g/f is in a coma all because some idiot had to get somewhere a bit faster and jumped a red light to do so.

[Travel2003]

Anyone know the person's name?

[MaxYakov]

Sad.....I have ridden a motorcycle here for 13 years straight. About 10 years ago I had the green light, and a Thai ran the red light and crashed into me. So I now have a wrecked shoulder for life...... Now when the light turns green for me, I wait a few seconds for all the orange light runners to clear the intersection before proceeding. If I come up to a green light, I slow down a bit and check in both directions before I cross.

I ride a Honda PCX 125 for last 3yrs and enjoy the simplicity of the scooter, no changing gears, great excelleration and stopping. I am usuall ahead of the traffic and always keep in mind the rear approaching traffic, always looking for the Pizza delivery bike that swirves and dodging slower in control bikes. After all the near misses he causes in his hurry delivery mode, he too waits for the green light...at this point I stop close to him and tell him in hand signs he will someday crash from his driving habbits...raising his helmet cover and saying something in Thai seem that he has no value on his life! I left the red light slowly and he seemed that the urgency on delivery was even GREATER now...yes a near miss occured on his early departure from red to green...wow! Later in week I passed to see his bike jammed under a tourist bus..his Pizza flag on rear of bike confirmed this...aw..another one off the road! To add icing on the cake..I was behind the fellow whom crased, his arm bandaged and road rash show on his Pizza jacket..he road on back of a taxi bike. ...I did not pass this fellow as I knew he would be more up set to see me in that his antics of driving the way he did ended..a cold pizza, his bike wrecked...not sure if insurance covers commercial use ..these fellows do not know the differance...if they did they would slow down and drive like they had a crate of eggs!

The best advise is to drive defensive, I wear full coverage helmet..not a mountain bike helmet...seen a foreigner using one..stupid! I brought with me a ""Xelement Men's Armored Black and Grey Tri-Tex Fabric and Leather Trim Jacket with Level-3 Advanced Armor and Kevlar Protection" from Canada with leather gloves...I wear a dust mask for full protection from bus exhausts....dress for a crash and know this is a war!...always be aware..and focused.

I hope this helps us foreigners in the battle to keep alive while driving...Ron

A 'full coverage helmet', 'dressed for a crash', leather and kevlar jacket, and leather gloves, eh? I'd say a better investment that will probably increase you longevity geometrically and avoid losing the 'war' would be a vehicle with 'full coverage' airbags and THEN drive defensively. But the leather gloves are very cool.

[Nitupsar]

Just came back home to Norway after nearly a year in Bangkok this time. Drove long distances by car to the provinces and also on a daily basis around the city. I was apalled what chances motorbike drivers take in Thailand. They are playing an often lethal game. I like motor bikes, but I would not drive one in Thailand even if you gave it to me for free! Get a solid car and buckle up and live longer! That is my advice ...

The sad thing with motorbikes is that even if you follow the rules and drive well, others do not always do that. And if you're on a bike, guess who suffers? Norwegians and others from relatively law abiding countries are especially at risk as we almost subcounsciously assume that other people obey the rules. A big and potentially fatal mistake!

[laislica]

RIP. The first lesson to learn driving in Thailand is to never trust a green traffic light. I live in this country and accept the way things are done and the lax enforcement of laws but this is one law that should be enforced. I don't advocate a nanny state or anything like one, I hate the way many things are done in the west now, but jumping red lights is criminally dangerous and needs to be stamped out.

Don't go into an intersection unless you own it and will continue to own it during your transit, in any country ... if you want to live a long(er), and pain-free(er) life. Intersection real estate ownership disputes are often fatal.

RIP the victim and hope his girlfriend fully recovers.

What a tragedy RIP to the dead and a full recovery to the injured.

Now in case someone didn't mention it yet (sorry I didn't read all the posts)

The Number 1 rule for all motorcyclists world wide is:-

NEVER BE THE FIRST OR LAST THROUGH TRAFFIC LIGHTS!

[lookingeast]

Among the ex-pats who get to a point, to a mental state, where they say 'enough is enough, i'm leaving LoS and going home', i've often wondered what percentage of that feeling has been caused by experiences trying to stay in one piece on the roads here ? Personally, because i enjoy driving in my own country a lot, where the standard is high and above all, COURTESY still exists between drivers, the road-madness in LoS would/will contribute as much as 50% of my decision.

[lookingeast]

Just came back home to Norway after nearly a year in Bangkok this time. Drove long distances by car to the provinces and also on a daily basis around the city. I was apalled what chances motorbike drivers take in Thailand. They are playing an often lethal game. I like motor bikes, but I would not drive one in Thailand even if you gave it to me for free! Get a solid car and buckle up and live longer! That is my advice ...

The sad thing with motorbikes is that even if you follow the rules and drive well, others do not always do that. And if you're on a bike, guess who suffers? Norwegians and others from relatively law abiding countries are especially at risk as we almost subcounsciously assume that other people obey the rules. A big and potentially fatal mistake!

I know it's a cliche, but seriously, as far as ACTUAL driving in LoS goes - the only rule is : there are no rules. Edited April 12, 2013 by lookingeast

[Thai at Heart]

Among the ex-pats who get to a point, to a mental state, where they say 'enough is enough, i'm leaving LoS and going home', i've often wondered what percentage of that feeling has been caused by experiences trying to stay in one piece on the roads here ? Personally, because i enjoy driving in my own country a lot, where the standard is high and above all, COURTESY still exists between drivers, the road-madness in LoS would/will contribute as much as 50% of my decision.

I drive a lot for work, and whilst it's tiring, it is the way it is. A 3 hour drive here is like 10 hours back home.

Is it reason to go home? Of course not. Have had 2 life scary moments in 17 years, but, if you let it get to you so much you want to go home, commuting to work at home is probably too much for you too.

All i can say is don't do anything quickly or aggressively, and check around the car endlessly for people in places you would never expect.

It actually pays to be a little quicker than the traffic around you. Things don't sneak up from behind too often.

Edited April 12, 2013 by Thai at Heart

[tetleythedog]

You can follow all the rules yourself, but how do you you protect yourself from the stupidity and arrogance of others. The driver will probably get a slap on the wrist and a 1000 baht fine!

Very sad indeed.

In the UK a mandatory 4 years for manslaughter. In Thailand, as you say, nothing much will happen, in fact they will probably come out with the old phrase..............Farangs fault......if he wasn't in our country it wouldn't have happened !!! RIP my friend, another tragic result of indiscipline, arrogance, and stupidity !!!

[Mudcrab]

Very sad, RIP.

As other posters say, the only way to be safe here is trust nothing. I ride a big bike every day and the way to stay alive is to manage risk.

Green lights, pedestrians (do thais even get taught to look left/right when crossing), soi dogs, garbage, taxi drivers off their face on Yabba etc etc..

Keep doing those life savers people!

I too ride a big bike every day and my motto is "ride to stay alive" trust nothing and nobody.

[Mudcrab]

Very sad, RIP.

As other posters say, the only way to be safe here is trust nothing. I ride a big bike every day and the way to stay alive is to manage risk.

Green lights, pedestrians (do thais even get taught to look left/right when crossing), soi dogs, garbage, taxi drivers off their face on Yabba etc etc..

Keep doing those life savers people!

I also ride a big bike everyday and you are correct that you really have to manage your risk.

I always assume that I am invisible, meaning, that nobody sees me. I only see them and therefore I have to be very careful.

What difference does the size of the bike make, are you more vulnerable, less vulnerable, more of a man, or what?

With a big bike you can stay in control...i.e. ahead of the cars not in the pack, in the correct position on the road, not on the side of the road. might be hard concept to realise but it really does work.

[Mudcrab]

for all you who dont like the way thais drive, either learn to deal with it, or take a bus to suvarnabhumi, get on a plane and go back wherever you came from.... really tired of farong complaining about everything,,,, you dont have to live in this country, you are all here by choice,,, live with it or get the **** out,,,, but please just stop your old-man whining...

RIP to the norwegian man, and all the best to his gf for a speedy recovery

I live here.

I spend 100% of all my money and salaries here.

I feed my family (wife) and her family.

I contribute with more funds to the society than 99% of the population does.

I have earned the damn right to complain about stuff here.

Complain all you want here....seems to be the place to do it. But don't expect anything to change

[Mudcrab]

for all you who dont like the way thais drive, either learn to deal with it, or take a bus to suvarnabhumi, get on a plane and go back wherever you came from.... really tired of farong complaining about everything,,,, you dont have to live in this country, you are all here by choice,,, live with it or get the **** out,,,, but please just stop your old-man whining...

RIP to the norwegian man, and all the best to his gf for a speedy recovery

I live here.

I spend 100% of all my money and salaries here.

I feed my family (wife) and her family.

I contribute with more funds to the society than 99% of the population does.

I have earned the damn right to complain about stuff here.

If you drive like them, it is because you lower yourself to their level of stupidity. The way they drive is completely heratic, stupid and without even a parcel of cleverness. Thailand is ranked 6th for the number of road casualities. This just means that they are the problem in here. As I previously said, the Thai roads are exceptionally safe. The people driving on it aren't.

Let me tell you about the discussion I had with a Thai not so long ago. We were talking about these small Esarn roads where the motorcycles drive illegally all the time. The surprise was when he told me that he drive "die for free". This means that if you hit someone, you just leave him there. Now, answer my question: why should I leave this country that I cherrish and love the most for the benefit of a "die for free" man who respect less his own race than I do? Obviously, you just taught the same way they does towards foreigners.

Besides, I had 2 car accidents since the last 6 months. The funniest part is that I haven't paid any dammage on my car, the Thais that were in infraction did. Thailand has exactly the same road safety code than any other country. The difference here is that the police won't run at you for a ticket if you commit an infration. Once you get an accident, the one who is in infraction is going to pay for the dammage of the others except if you die. Wanna drive like them? Just follow these driving "aces". However, do not get any car accidents because you might be the one taking the plane on your way back home after your jail sentence.

you has 2 car accidents in the last 6 months? And you post on a forum dedicated to a man who died on a motorcycle. interesting.

[Mudcrab]

All bullsh!t aside one thing many people do not realise is the difference between learning to drive on the LHS of then road versus the RHS. I It might seem basic stuff but when we are the zone of unconscious competence ( do you remember indicating as you left you home street this morning? This is unconscious competence) it easy to make the most basic of mistakes. Turning onto the "wrong" side of the road around a corner, pulling up a little to far away from the petrol/gas pump.

I grew up with driving on the LHS. Learnt the look left, look right, look left thing as a kid and damn near got run over in the US.

"Accidents" (not that they exist) can and do happen. Conscious incompetence should be followed by prosecution to the full extent of the law.

[Angeledge7777]

for all you who dont like the way thais drive, either learn to deal with it, or take a bus to suvarnabhumi, get on a plane and go back wherever you came from.... really tired of farong complaining about everything,,,, you dont have to live in this country, you are all here by choice,,, live with it or get the **** out,,,, but please just stop your old-man whining...

RIP to the norwegian man, and all the best to his gf for a speedy recovery

I live here.

I spend 100% of all my money and salaries here.

I feed my family (wife) and her family.

I contribute with more funds to the society than 99% of the population does.

I have earned the damn right to complain about stuff here.

If you drive like them, it is because you lower yourself to their level of stupidity. The way they drive is completely heratic, stupid and without even a parcel of cleverness. Thailand is ranked 6th for the number of road casualities. This just means that they are the problem in here. As I previously said, the Thai roads are exceptionally safe. The people driving on it aren't.

Let me tell you about the discussion I had with a Thai not so long ago. We were talking about these small Esarn roads where the motorcycles drive illegally all the time. The surprise was when he told me that he drive "die for free". This means that if you hit someone, you just leave him there. Now, answer my question: why should I leave this country that I cherrish and love the most for the benefit of a "die for free" man who respect less his own race than I do? Obviously, you just taught the same way they does towards foreigners.

Besides, I had 2 car accidents since the last 6 months. The funniest part is that I haven't paid any dammage on my car, the Thais that were in infraction did. Thailand has exactly the same road safety code than any other country. The difference here is that the police won't run at you for a ticket if you commit an infration. Once you get an accident, the one who is in infraction is going to pay for the dammage of the others except if you die. Wanna drive like them? Just follow these driving "aces". However, do not get any car accidents because you might be the one taking the plane on your way back home after your jail sentence.

you has 2 car accidents in the last 6 months? And you post on a forum dedicated to a man who died on a motorcycle. interesting.

Where do you want to go with that statement? One Thai hit my car while parked and the second was a motorcycle deiving wrong way. Both times, police came and charged the Thais to pay the damages on my car. Need more informations?

[HOAX]

I have a Norwegian uncle at same age in Khonkaen. I don't know much about his girlfriend except that I've seen a picture once of her with her 2 or 3 Thai kids from previous relationship(s). I've tried to call him several times but his phone is shut off. He usually calls his sister (my aunt) every Friday but he haven't called yet.

Will someone who knows this Norwegian man please PM me his name or something so I can clarify?

Thank you.

[metisdead]

I have a Norwegian uncle at same age in Khonkaen. I don't know much about his girlfriend except that I've seen a picture once of her with her 2 or 3 Thai kids from previous relationship(s). I've tried to call him several times but his phone is shut off. He usually calls his sister (my aunt) every Friday but he haven't called yet.

Will someone who knows this Norwegian man please PM me his name or something so I can clarify?

Thank you.

A topic in another forum was posted yesterday and has been closed as this topic became available. Check this topic:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/632312-help-for-oyvind-holmen/#entry6294669

[HOAX]

I have a Norwegian uncle at same age in Khonkaen. I don't know much about his girlfriend except that I've seen a picture once of her with her 2 or 3 Thai kids from previous relationship(s). I've tried to call him several times but his phone is shut off. He usually calls his sister (my aunt) every Friday but he haven't called yet.

Will someone who knows this Norwegian man please PM me his name or something so I can clarify?

Thank you.

A topic in another forum was posted yesterday and has been closed as this topic became available. Check this topic:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/632312-help-for-oyvind-holmen/#entry6294669

Thanks for your quick reply.

Ok, it wasn't my uncle.

RIP and my condolences goes to his family and friends. I hope his girl makes it.

The traffic in Thailand is a depressing thing.

[maidu]

I am a frequent visitor to Khon Kaen and will be spending Songkran there. I have always maintained, if you can drive in Khon Kaen you can drive anywhere. The standard of driving in the city is abysmal. A couple of times I have rode my scooter from my wifes village into the city centre, along Route 2, and it is frightening.

I send my deepest sympathy to the family and friends of the deceased and hope his girl friend makes a speedy and full recovery.

Sounds like Chiang Rai where I reside. As far as I know, there has never, in the history of C.Rai, been an arrest for going thru a red light or otherwise driving dangerously. All is tolerated. I once did a guesstimate of how many red light runs per hour take place in C.Rai. The number was 10,000. You might wonder why it's a high number for a relatively small city - The reason: a single driver can jump multiple red lights within an hour.

[VocalNeal]

for all you who dont like the way thais drive, either learn to deal with it, or take a bus to suvarnabhumi, get on a plane and go back wherever you came from.... really tired of farong complaining about everything,,,, you dont have to live in this country, you are all here by choice,,, live with it or get the **** out,,,, but please just stop your old-man whining...

RIP to the norwegian man, and all the best to his gf for a speedy recovery

+1 At last someone with some common sense.

Side note to anyone negotiating any road junction here, Watch the traffic not the lights. Regardless of what the Honda Jazz driver did or didn't do, had the bike rider looked at the traffic he would have seen that the Jazz wasn't going to stop.

live with it or get out attitude. i dont see any common sense except the typical apologetic behavior with profanity

given that mentality, one would never improve

Who is going to improve and why? I assume you are a visitor in this culture just like I am. I accept that things here are different. Not worse or better just different. I learn to live with the difference. Adapt , adopt ,improve. notice the first one is adapt, and the second one....

[Thailand1977]

for all you who dont like the way thais drive, either learn to deal with it, or take a bus to suvarnabhumi, get on a plane and go back wherever you came from.... really tired of farong complaining about everything,,,, you dont have to live in this country, you are all here by choice,,, live with it or get the **** out,,,, but please just stop your old-man whining...

RIP to the norwegian man, and all the best to his gf for a speedy recovery

+1 At last someone with some common sense.

Side note to anyone negotiating any road junction here, Watch the traffic not the lights. Regardless of what the Honda Jazz driver did or didn't do, had the bike rider looked at the traffic he would have seen that the Jazz wasn't going to stop.

live with it or get out attitude. i dont see any common sense except the typical apologetic behavior with profanity

given that mentality, one would never improve

Who is going to improve and why? I assume you are a visitor in this culture just like I am. I accept that things here are different. Not worse or better just different. I learn to live with the difference. Adapt , adopt ,improve. notice the first one is adapt, and the second one....

Well many want to improve so they can stop burying their children, what a stupid thing to say.

[Udox]

I seem to recall about 6 months ago - the government were discussing the prospect of handing out a booklet on 'Driving in Thailand' to arrivals at the airport because "some foreigners believed that a red light means stop"

That sums it up.

[LUSHGOAT]

R.I.P poor chap what a waist of a life because of some ignorant irresponsible ass-hole. Was in an accident myself in Pattaya when a car ran a red light and smashed up my pickup was just about to get out to give the idiot what for when I remembered I'm a farang if I hadn't of been there it would not have happened so I put my pickup in gear and drove on with my bits hanging off cos 10/1 I would have to pay the Thai sad but that's the way it is. Condolences to the man's family and girlfriend.

[gaucho]

years back saw a driver run a red light and plough into a motor bike ...killed instantly ...sickening sight .....i kid u not about a week later same spot almost a recurrence and it was the SAME driver ...apparently he had connections ...red lights here mean nothing

[thailand49]

I can give you a number of things to look for when driving in Thailand, as a instructor for commercial vehicles and driver for over 40 plus years pertaining to this accident I can give you this but first R.I.P to the victim and my sympathy to the family and friends and now jail time to the Thai Driver. Guarantee this was not his first time only the first time he killed someone the madness will slow but never end honestly start to enforce the law as it was intented and a greater punitive damage to the victim.

These few rules taught by commercial instructors like myself will hopefully help motorbike and cars drivers in Thailand. The word or suggestion was used here was managed which should also mean defensive.

A. Never put yourself in a bad position, if you do, the chances and % will go up that something will happen.

B. When driving you should " get the big picture " that means you should know what is ahead of you 7 seconds forward.

C. Get into the habit of moving your eyes from left, middle, right and so forth every 3 seconds to know what is around you.

In time all of this will be second nature to a driver.

D. When at a red light as soon as it turns green! COUNT TO YOURSELF 1,2,3, THEN GO! In Thailand if you do that watch

them go through the red? And when you proceed never take it for granted always look on the side that will strike you first!

E. When you go through a green even when it has been green for sometime get into the habit of applying all the above and

you will find this will help from A-E!

Good luck and everyone stay safe?

With all due respect, item D in your list could get people killed if they followed it. They'll be collected by a very late runner or one that is difficult to detect. I once had a motor home run a left turn red long after the green. My problem was that I was hanging back and timing the green and I did not realize that, by his speed, he had intended to run his left turn red (going too fast to stop - heard that one before). So I had some speed on when I entered the intersection. I tried to evade as I watched his 30 feet length - seemingly in slow motion - cross in front of me;but I managed to just clip his rear bumper and put a 90 degree bend in it.

Not sure what you are trying to say here but It seems you aren't getting the point at all. In other words the Big picture isn't to assume anything!

The entire short list I have provided can all be done in less than a few seconds while driving it is just conditioning your mind to do it. As for part D, is simple! it doesn't kill people in fact all studies show that it saves lives. The meaning is simple, if you are sitting at a red light waiting for it to turn green as soon as it is green counting 1,2,3, allows for most if not all red light runners to go by. By doing this simple thing you don't assume it is clear like Thai driver and take off as there is no tomorrow! while counting the Big picture is you are looking left or right and counting 1,2,3, doesn't mean you can take off after that like a Thai driver! You still have to get the Big Picture by constantly looking and that means my other rules apply now! Get the Big Picture by looking ahead, left right never assume.

Ask yourself would you be better off here in Thailand to count 1,2,3, look before proceeding or taking off as soon as the light turn green? Counting doesn't cost you a thing?

[DocN]

RIP. The first lesson to learn driving in Thailand is to never trust a green traffic light. I live in this country and accept the way things are done and the lax enforcement of laws but this is one law that should be enforced. I don't advocate a nanny state or anything like one, I hate the way many things are done in the west now, but jumping red lights is criminally dangerous and needs to be stamped out.

Wow!

Yeah... good idea! Just cherry- pick the rules you think are important to follow and the rest ...mai pen rai!

Seems that at least one guy thought, a red light is not that important!

In my humble opinion, all you who came from the west, because Thailand is no nanny- state, should get your head fixed!

RIP to the victim and all the best to his wife!

[thailand49]

I can give you a number of things to look for when driving in Thailand, as a instructor for commercial vehicles and driver for over 40 plus years pertaining to this accident I can give you this but first R.I.P to the victim and my sympathy to the family and friends and now jail time to the Thai Driver. Guarantee this was not his first time only the first time he killed someone the madness will slow but never end honestly start to enforce the law as it was intented and a greater punitive damage to the victim.

These few rules taught by commercial instructors like myself will hopefully help motorbike and cars drivers in Thailand. The word or suggestion was used here was managed which should also mean defensive.

A. Never put yourself in a bad position, if you do, the chances and % will go up that something will happen.

B. When driving you should " get the big picture " that means you should know what is ahead of you 7 seconds forward.

C. Get into the habit of moving your eyes from left, middle, right and so forth every 3 seconds to know what is around you.

In time all of this will be second nature to a driver.

D. When at a red light as soon as it turns green! COUNT TO YOURSELF 1,2,3, THEN GO! In Thailand if you do that watch

them go through the red? And when you proceed never take it for granted always look on the side that will strike you first!

E. When you go through a green even when it has been green for sometime get into the habit of applying all the above and

you will find this will help from A-E!

Good luck and everyone stay safe?

With all due respect, item D in your list could get people killed if they followed it. They'll be collected by a very late runner or one that is difficult to detect. I once had a motor home run a left turn red long after the green. My problem was that I was hanging back and timing the green and I did not realize that, by his speed, he had intended to run his left turn red (going too fast to stop - heard that one before). So I had some speed on when I entered the intersection. I tried to evade as I watched his 30 feet length - seemingly in slow motion - cross in front of me;but I managed to just clip his rear bumper and put a 90 degree bend in it.

Not sure if you get the actually guideline of this rule? Yes if you follow it to the letter yes people or you will get killed. It is just a guideline or would you rather sit there and count to 100 hundred? When in Thailand if you watch at a intersection when vehicles are waiting at a red light to turn green as it does driver take off without any hesitation with the assumption they have a right of way! Even if they did the math is 2 plus 2, you can't win against a ton of steel.

This rule is say to yourself 1,2,3 but you still got to follow the rest of the list I listed! If you assume like you are doing based on the rule that I'm in the clear then you are just 3 seconds from doing the same thing Thai drivers do. You haven't gotten the big picture?

[tropo]

I know it's a cliche, but seriously, as far as ACTUAL driving in LoS goes - the only rule is : there are no rules.

There is one rule which is enforced very strictly - All foreigners must wear helmets on motorbikes.

There's no doubt that foreigners must ride/drive more carefully than Thais. They'll be booked for the smallest infringements eg. U-turn on double orange lines. Stopping ahead of white line at intersections. Riding the wrong way. Turning left at red light. 3 up on motorcycle... etc etc

[tropo]

The entire short list I have provided can all be done in less than a few seconds while driving it is just conditioning your mind to do it. As for part D, is simple! it doesn't kill people in fact all studies show that it saves lives. The meaning is simple, if you are sitting at a red light waiting for it to turn green as soon as it is green counting 1,2,3, allows for most if not all red light runners to go by. By doing this simple thing you don't assume it is clear like Thai driver and take off as there is no tomorrow! while counting the Big picture is you are looking left or right and counting 1,2,3, doesn't mean you can take off after that like a Thai driver! You still have to get the Big Picture by constantly looking and that means my other rules apply now! Get the Big Picture by looking ahead, left right never assume.

Ask yourself would you be better off here in Thailand to count 1,2,3, look before proceeding or taking off as soon as the light turn green? Counting doesn't cost you a thing?

I think the idea of counting 1,2,3 before proceeding at an intersection is dumb. You'd have to count to 20 at many intersections and by that time the guys behind you are getting very upset.

The best idea is to consider all intersections as uncontrolled and proceed with caution AT ALL TIMES.

[Mangkhut]

It is now written in Norwegian internetfora that the woman also died because of huge injuries in the accident. Tree motorbikes was wiped over by the same car....

Tragic