Songkran Versus Christmas

[chonabot]

Am I reading this wrong or are you saying that a large percentage of the Thai population getting steaming drunk is due to westernisation ?

I think the percentage that doesn't get drunk , does the religious bit and then goes to the mall and has a meal in a foreign restaurant instead is more to do with westernisation.

Kind of, but the purpose of the post is to see what percentage of non Churchgoing Christmas revellers have poo pooed the westerners/Thais who do not understand Songkran.

None of which have put up their hands yet

[arthurwait]

Am I reading this wrong or are you saying that a large percentage of the Thai population getting steaming drunk is due to westernisation ?

I think the percentage that doesn't get drunk , does the religious bit and then goes to the mall and has a meal in a foreign restaurant instead is more to do with westernisation.

Kind of, but the purpose of the post is to see what percentage of non Churchgoing Christmas revellers have poo pooed the westerners/Thais who do not understand Songkran.

None of which have put up their hands yet

I only poo poo in the toilet. Non squat ones that is.

[krisb]

You don't necessarily need a reason to celebrate sometimes. Sometimes it's just because everyone else is having a party.

Good enough reason?

Edited April 14, 2013 by krisb

[pattayadingo]

Christmas starts in October in the U.K.

Songkran starts a few days before Songkran.

Christmas was a religious festival before we realised Christianity is a load of hogwash since the big bang theory.

Songkran has changed a lot in some places. There are many places where Songkran is the same or similar to what it has always been - that being the sprinkling of water on the hands of the Matriarch.

Songkran is not rammed down your throats with the equivalent of Christmas Carols for months on end, or a constant barrage of tv adverts. - Give it time

I'd relate Songkran as the equivalent to the old Pagan festivals the we used to have in the west before Christianity took over.

Good points, do you participate in both festivals ?

Not any longer.

Christmas to me is now more for children, but that in itself is the commercial side. I rarely hear of people attending even the Christmas eve service at church.

I have never seen my grandchildren at Christmas but they certainly do not attend any church services.

As I said earlier regards the commercialisation of Christmas, that to me destroys the idea of Christmas. If i was with my grandchildren i would at least make them fully aware of what the 'real' Christmas is all about and allow them to make their own minds up in future.

Songkran, I have previously attended the Sunday ceremony of sprinkling water on the hands of the Matriarch. They were very calm and serious occasions that were taking part in the middle of party atmosphere of music, drinking and dancing.

A somewhat odd scenario in many ways to have the party stop instantly and everyone become more serious for the water sprinkling.

Where I used to be, there were dedicated areas for the mayhem of water throwing, fire hoses, music and general fun. That was great and I used to attend that.

Since moving to Pattaya I have not attended. Maybe on Sunday 19th on Khao Talo there is the general water throwing mayhem and I'll be inclined to attend that.

MiL decided it would be best for various reasons not to travel all the way to Issan for this weekend. Heat - was over 40 deg C recently, the madness on the roads and the fact the g/f spent 10 days at home recently.

I'll add that I do the the family party atmosphere of the village Songkran......

Now the F1 is starting

[chonabot]

You don't necessarily need a reason to celebrate sometimes. Sometimes it's just because everyone else is having a party.

Good enough reason?

Good reason but not the point

I have no issue with people having a good time, whatever the (non) reason.

But I get a little bored of those who chastise others for taking part in a celebration/festival etc because they feel that is not a part of their culture, and furthermore that they ( the Songkran partakers ) do not understand the reason behind this festival, but ( the Chastisers) will happily do exactly same at Christmas, wherever they may be.

Edited April 14, 2013 by chonabot

[Travel2003]

I believe the foreigners have a bit more info about what Songkran is than Thais know about Christmas.

I have asked and asked all my Thai friends and family members so many times if they bow know why Christmas exists.

Absolutely zero know why.

Zip zero.

Still The Christmas hysteria here in Thailand is getting pretty close to what we see in the Christian countries.

The Thais dont give a shit over what it is about, as they just love all the decorations and hype about it.

Basically it is just good old Sanook.

Btw,

God is just an imaginary friends for adults.

[rijb]

Christianity was doomed once the printing press was invented,

What was the very first book printed on a moveable printing press?

And the first i-book was an Apple. Eve wanted to buy it. But, Adam said no!

[SPG]

When you spend a little time on TV you start to get the impression that many have forgotten how to celebrate whatever the occasion.

[krisb]

I must be stupid, sorry I've re read your op and I still don't get your point Chonabot?

[ballpoint]

I went to Church 30 years ago , now I pray at the altar of online poker...but that's just me

As this thread is pointing towards the religious significance of the two festivals, it is interesting to note that the

amount of Christians in the UK have fallen by 58 per cent in the last 70 years - so I would argue that human nature is vastly different

now in comparison to the last century.

The percentage of church goers is predicted to drop another 50 per cent in the next 10 years.

But the sales of 'Xmas' presents will undoubtedly rise.

http://www.whychurch.org.uk/trends.php

Perhaps there will be online church services for those of us too busy (read lazy) to attend?

I see many churches being converted into bars and nightclubs.

They make good carpet shops. ( that's me being self interested again, as I own carpet shops. ).

....

Give it a few years and I'll be able to open a chain of carpets shops in newly abandoned Buddhist Temples.

Indeed, don't ever forget that the global phenomena of 'Wat-a-Carpet' was hatched right here by a Scotsman.

I'd go for the bar and night club conversion myself. I predict the Drunken Stupa chain will be a roaring success.

[sustento]

Songkran celebrates an astrological event (the Sun moving into Aries). It's also celebrated in other countries in Southeast and South Asia on the same day.

[Sayonarax]

Christmas starts in October in the U.K.

Songkran starts a few days before Songkran.

Christmas was a religious festival before we realised Christianity is a load of hogwash since the big bang theory.

Songkran has changed a lot in some places. There are many places where Songkran is the same or similar to what it has always been - that being the sprinkling of water on the hands of the Matriarch.

Songkran is not rammed down your throats with the equivalent of Christmas Carols for months on end, or a constant barrage of tv adverts.

I'd relate Songkran as the equivalent to the old Pagan festivals the we used to have in the west before Christianity took over.

The spirit of Christmas is the children..

Big bang theory makes Christianity a load of hogwash..

So if an alien landed on earth today, would religion just die over night?

Best get ya self signed up with Tom Cruise.

[ballpoint]

I went to Church 30 years ago , now I pray at the altar of online poker...but that's just me

As this thread is pointing towards the religious significance of the two festivals, it is interesting to note that the

amount of Christians in the UK have fallen by 58 per cent in the last 70 years - so I would argue that human nature is vastly different

now in comparison to the last century.

The percentage of church goers is predicted to drop another 50 per cent in the next 10 years.

But the sales of 'Xmas' presents will undoubtedly rise.

http://www.whychurch.org.uk/trends.php

Perhaps there will be online church services for those of us too busy (read lazy) to attend?

I see many churches being converted into bars and nightclubs.

They make good carpet shops. ( that's me being self interested again, as I own carpet shops. ).

Christianity was doomed once the printing press was invented, it unleashed a desire to learn, and opened up reading to the masses, once the masses started to read they started to question what they were being told from the pulpit. The stranglehold that the church had on learning before was broken forever, and the mysticism exposed.

It's no coincidence that the Protestant Reformation began at the same time as the invention of the printing press, ( give or take ).

Anyway, the same thing will unfold here in Thailand, the more educated the populace becomes the less importance will be placed on religion. The OP talks about the Westernization of Thailand, I think a more accurate phrase would be the homogenization of Thailand

Thailand takes it's influences from many sources, it's not all a matter of the Bad West corrupting Little Ickle Thailand. I predict the descent of Thailand into being a predominantly secular society being even faster than that of the West. This will happen as our access to outside influences due to the internet has never been greater, and what was accepted before as a matter of Blind Faith will be questioned.

Give it a few years and I'll be able to open a chain of carpets shops in newly abandoned Buddhist Temples.

Christianity was doomed when they started putting lightning rods on churches in the 18th century.

[canuckamuck]

I think Western New Years and Songkran would be a more fair comparison. Both of them are primarily celebrated by drinking and a certain loss of inhibition.

Songkran indeed has a religious root, but the activities of the adherents seem hypocritical in these days. Of course that could be said as well for Christmas, but I would not agree. The Christmas season still compels a great many people to be more generous and charitable. Which is indeed a reflection of Christianity. Whereas Songkran does not see a lot in the terms of advancing Buddhist practice, unless they have now included binge drinking and reckless behavior as part of the eight-fold path.

[theblether]

I went to Church 30 years ago , now I pray at the altar of online poker...but that's just me

As this thread is pointing towards the religious significance of the two festivals, it is interesting to note that the

amount of Christians in the UK have fallen by 58 per cent in the last 70 years - so I would argue that human nature is vastly different

now in comparison to the last century.

The percentage of church goers is predicted to drop another 50 per cent in the next 10 years.

But the sales of 'Xmas' presents will undoubtedly rise.

http://www.whychurch.org.uk/trends.php

Perhaps there will be online church services for those of us too busy (read lazy) to attend?

I see many churches being converted into bars and nightclubs.

They make good carpet shops. ( that's me being self interested again, as I own carpet shops. ).

Christianity was doomed once the printing press was invented, it unleashed a desire to learn, and opened up reading to the masses, once the masses started to read they started to question what they were being told from the pulpit. The stranglehold that the church had on learning before was broken forever, and the mysticism exposed.

It's no coincidence that the Protestant Reformation began at the same time as the invention of the printing press, ( give or take ).

Anyway, the same thing will unfold here in Thailand, the more educated the populace becomes the less importance will be placed on religion. The OP talks about the Westernization of Thailand, I think a more accurate phrase would be the homogenization of Thailand

Thailand takes it's influences from many sources, it's not all a matter of the Bad West corrupting Little Ickle Thailand. I predict the descent of Thailand into being a predominantly secular society being even faster than that of the West. This will happen as our access to outside influences due to the internet has never been greater, and what was accepted before as a matter of Blind Faith will be questioned.

Give it a few years and I'll be able to open a chain of carpets shops in newly abandoned Buddhist Temples.

Christianity was doomed when they started putting lightning rods on churches in the 18th century.

You've been watching The Omen too much

[ballpoint]

Christianity was doomed when they started putting lightning rods on churches in the 18th century.

You've been watching The Omen too much

What's The Omen got to do with it? Lightning rods on churches was an early triumph of science and reason over religion. Publically admitting that you're not as infallible as you've been telling people you are is a big step towards indroducing doubt.

[theblether]

Christianity was doomed when they started putting lightning rods on churches in the 18th century.

You've been watching The Omen too much

What's The Omen got to do with it? Lightning rods on churches was an early triumph of science and reason over religion. Publically admitting that you're not as infallible as you've been telling people you are is a big step towards indroducing doubt.

You've never seen The Omen?

Right, seriously, if any of you think that lightning rods on churches was more important than the printing press then you are completely, totally and utterly wrong.

Go read Martin Luther's life story and see the importance of the printed pamphlet to modern European history.

Edited April 14, 2013 by theblether

[FunFon]

Lightning rods on churches was an early triumph of science and reason over religion. Publically admitting that you're not as infallible as you've been telling people you are is a big step towards indroducing doubt.

-

True Buddhism encourages doubt, encourages practitioners to question all dogma, take nothing on faith and test all claims yourself, even Siddhartha Gautama himself specifically denies infallibility as a human being, IMO most of his teachings were compatible with scientific thought.

That's why those most infected with dogmatic religiosity usually claim that it isn't even a religion, since there is no God to worship or pray to.

Of course just like Christianity, there are layers on layers of previous local-culture specific beliefs and practices crusted over the original teachings, so what most ordinary Thais practice has a tenuous relationship to the latter and they are often practicing more of the pre-Buddhist animism, nature spirit worship etc.

[Rsquared]

All festivities are just becoming commercialised in this day and age where the scrupulous are out to make as much money as they can from the vulnerable joe citizen.

Those who wish to celebrate Christmas in the traditional sense, I acknowledge that that is what they believe and I am not going to change their beliefs, providing they don't try and change my beliefs.

Songkran for me is something I can join in or sit back and observe and still appreciate the significance behind all the water sports and fun that goes with it.

Both celebrations have the good sides and the dark sides.....usually contributed to human behaviour.

I must say that "sayonarax" piqued my interest when he mentioned that if an alien landed on earth today, would religion die overnight?

Maybe not overnight....but it would surely be throwing a cat amongst the pigeons, and I for one would love to have a front row seat to watch the debate from both extremes.

Stay Safe.

Cheers.

[StreetCowboy]

I don't think there's many on this thread that really understand religion well enough to comment. Personally, I think there's a lot more Christians amongst us than care to admit it, and I don't see that a lack of faith is contrary to Christianity.

A lot of poor Christians, but Christians, nevertheless, whether they choose to accept it or not. It's a bold explorer that know his own mind

SC

[smokie36]

Lightning rods on churches was an early triumph of science and reason over religion. Publically admitting that you're not as infallible as you've been telling people you are is a big step towards indroducing doubt.-True Buddhism encourages doubt, encourages practitioners to question all dogma, take nothing on faith and test all claims yourself, even Siddhartha Gautama himself specifically denies infallibility as a human being, IMO most of his teachings were compatible with scientific thought.That's why those most infected with dogmatic religiosity usually claim that it isn't even a religion, since there is no God to worship or pray to.Of course just like Christianity, there are layers on layers of previous local-culture specific beliefs and practices crusted over the original teachings, so what most ordinary Thais practice has a tenuous relationship to the latter and they are often practicing more of the pre-Buddhist animism, nature spirit worship etc.

Kindly explain how you came to know this.

[FunFon]

Lightning rods on churches was an early triumph of science and reason over religion. Publically admitting that you're not as infallible as you've been telling people you are is a big step towards indroducing doubt.-True Buddhism encourages doubt, encourages practitioners to question all dogma, take nothing on faith and test all claims yourself, even Siddhartha Gautama himself specifically denies infallibility as a human being, IMO most of his teachings were compatible with scientific thought.That's why those most infected with dogmatic religiosity usually claim that it isn't even a religion, since there is no God to worship or pray to.Of course just like Christianity, there are layers on layers of previous local-culture specific beliefs and practices crusted over the original teachings, so what most ordinary Thais practice has a tenuous relationship to the latter and they are often practicing more of the pre-Buddhist animism, nature spirit worship etc.

Kindly explain how you came to know this.

-

Not until you use the quoting mechanism here to separate the statement you're questioning from those of posters other than myself.

[FunFon]

I don't think there's many on this thread that really understand religion well enough to comment. Personally, I think there's a lot more Christians amongst us than care to admit it, and I don't see that a lack of faith is contrary to Christianity.

A lot of poor Christians, but Christians, nevertheless, whether they choose to accept it or not. It's a bold explorer that know his own mind

SC

-

The term is an arbitrary one.

I personally think I am a Christian, but I am completely skeptical of the authority of any organised church that sets itself up as an authority as to how I practice my faith, much less how I choose to live my life.

I think that there have been men just as holy and wise as Jesus "holy prophets" or whatever you want to call them, throughout history and also currently living among us, and ultimately each of us are potentially such.

I think there's just as much truth to the attempted explanations of reality in concepts like reincarnation and karma as there are in the resurrection and other miracle stories about Jesus.

I don't believe in a personal God as explained by any Christian religion.

Now, do you think I'm a Christian?

[chonabot]

I must be stupid, sorry I've re read your op and I still don't get your point Chonabot?

No worries, maybe I could have been a little clearer

I personally enjoy Songkran and have no issue with people ( Foreign/Thai ) having fun and spraying water - whether or not they understand the meaning behind the festival

A lot of posters have said that they do not enjoy the festival ( up to them ) but they also do not like other people ( Westerners mainly ) enjoying it, because they do not understand the traditions behind Songkran.

So my question to that section of TV posters was - Do you also celebrate Christmas in the traditional sense and go to church, or do you partake in the festivities, present giving, piss up etc..much like the people you are criticising here at Songkran?

Hope that nails it on the head

[GuestHouse]

Surely the comparison is Western New Year with Sonkran?!

[chonabot]

Surely the comparison is Western New Year with Sonkran?!

This is a lively thread but not many seem to have got the point - never mind

[theblether]

I must be stupid, sorry I've re read your op and I still don't get your point Chonabot?

No worries, maybe I could have been a little clearer

I personally enjoy Songkran and have no issue with people ( Foreign/Thai ) having fun and spraying water - whether or not they understand the meaning behind the festival

A lot of posters have said that they do not enjoy the festival ( up to them ) but they also do not like other people ( Westerners mainly ) enjoying it, because they do not understand the traditions behind Songkran.

So my question to that section of TV posters was - Do you also celebrate Christmas in the traditional sense and go to church, or do you partake in the festivities, present giving, piss up etc..much like the people you are criticising here at Songkran?

Hope that nails it on the head

I will say that I was targeted big time yesterday, but that's was mainly because I played up to it. I can understand the Thai / Thai kids enjoying splashing the farang so I would saunter over pick ups full of families and invite them to drench me. Great fun.

Anyway, the elders in the pick ups seemed to particularly appreciate me doing that and more than once they got down from the pick up ( male and female ) and may I say, blessed me properly.

I thought was very touching, very touching indeed. So to keep on topic I can compare it to the Christmas Service I attended at Glasgow Cathedral.

It's a stunning Cathedral and that's the famous Glasgow Necropolis in the background. When you walk in to this Cathedral you are surrounded by history, but within the grandeur the core of Christianity is still celebrated. In as much as it's a privilege to be blessed by the Thai elders yesterday, it is equally a privilege to witness Christians celebrate their faith.

Personally I'm in a weird position, I was not baptized due to a family dispute, my mother is a Catholic, my father is from an Orange family. That was a big deal in the 60's and there was no way my Dad was allowing me to be baptized into the Catholic faith. The Scots among us know what I'm talking about.

I've examined the history of the Catholic Church deeply, and I'm quite switched on to the Protestant faith, ( I was brought up Protestant ). I'm interested in how the Roman Catholic Church fluked it's way into European domination, the story is fascinating, cruel and absurd. My family is predominantly Catholic, and I have discussed at length with them the issues that are besetting the Church, including the recent breathtakingly hypocritical actions of the Scottish Cardinal, a guy who was declared Bigot of the Year by one of the gay organizations, and was then outed as being gay himself. You couldn't make it up.

My mother and Aunt both put it the same way, they said " I don't go to chapel to worship priests or statues, I go to pray to God ".........my mother went on to say, in fact she has always maintained this " I have difficulty with many parts of my Catholic faith, but I have no difficulty in my love of Christ ".

There is no doubt that society is becoming more secular, and I can only see that accelerating, however I don't believe we should be ridiculing people of faith, well apart from Scientologists cos they're nutters and any group with Tom Cruise in it being a Head Lizard deserves everything it gets.

SC made a good point about many of us are more Christian than we are prepared to accept / admit. Adam Smith argued bitterly with a friend of his called David Hume, David Hume came to believe that if you extracted the belief of a higher being from the bible and regarded the 10 Commandments and other positive stories about human nature as a guide, then you would go through life just fine.

Humanism is now one of the fastest growing belief systems in the world, it's not a religion, it's a belief in the positive aspects of human nature. If you have lost your faith, have a look at Humanism and see if you can gel with the concept. I think most of us would.

Just sayin'

[GuestHouse]

TB, I might agree with you that society is becoming more secular were it not for the fact that religion is being replaced by belief in a whole load of hogwash. You might of course take the view that religion is hogwash, but ask around and you'll find huge numbers of people have replaced religious faith with belief in 'New Age' crap like 'Crystals ' and reinvented paganism (which true to the Zeitgeist paints the culture and beliefs of the dreamed up pagans as being in touch with nature, environmentally neutral and guardians of Gia - who of course is a womyn).

Thats the good thing about reinventing a culture or a belief set for which there is virtually no written record.... you can invent to be exactly what you want it to be.

A concept not lost on many an expat here in Thailand.

Edited April 15, 2013 by GuestHouse

[Kitsune]

I am in Bangkok and as Farang every year, I am told by everyone I meet that I absolutely need to rush to Kao san road, get drunk, half-naked and soaked.

It makes great reports on the evening news, watched by old Thai men who fantasize about younger so-called loose Farang girls and other farang countries who can't wait to get their plane ticket to join the fun and play with wet shirt girls .

Kan San Road is definitely where the BEST songkran is (so I am told)

I personally see that every year it evolves in more alcohol, sex and casualties, so it would be more like a Thai Spring Break (nearly same time) than Christmas.

Edited April 15, 2013 by Kitsune

[chonabot]

The Christmas / Songkran analogy is not meant to compare the two festivals, moreso the hypocrisy of TV posters bemoaning the lack of traditional understanding of this festival.

Some people got it