Songkran Versus Christmas

[Tywais]

the lack of traditional understanding of this festival.

I tried a topic on it but not very popular - Songkran and the True Meaning

[Kitsune]

Mmmhh.. so your topic is not about Songkran vs Christmas YET it is called Songkran vs Christmas ...

[Fookhaht]

Christianity was doomed once the printing press was invented,

What was the very first book printed on a moveable printing press?

And what continues to be the world-wide Best Seller among books?

Edited April 15, 2013 by Fookhaht

[Payboy]

Songkran Versus Christmas

Good excuses to get drunk - both of them!

[Travel2003]

Christianity was doomed once the printing press was invented,

What was the very first book printed on a moveable printing press?

And what continues to be the world-wide Best Seller among books?

Harry Potter?

[Fookhaht]

Christianity was doomed once the printing press was invented,

What was the very first book printed on a moveable printing press?

And what continues to be the world-wide Best Seller among books?

Harry Potter?

Close, but no cigar.

[chonabot]

Mmmhh.. so your topic is not about Songkran vs Christmas YET it is called Songkran vs Christmas ...

Mmmmh

Read the actual content

Or get a bachelors and start to comprehend a little beyond the headline

I have a blog that may make it easier for you Mmmmhh..is that an acronymmmmmmmmmmh?

Edited April 15, 2013 by chonabot

[orpheus454]

I must be stupid, sorry I've re read your op and I still don't get your point Chonabot?

Likewise.

[chonabot]

I must be stupid, sorry I've re read your op and I still don't get your point Chonabot?

Likewise.

It isn't that difficult

I read many posts here about Songkran

Westerners did not like the way the festival impeded their own way of functioning normally over this 7 day period.

I agreed with this sentiment to a point.

But when the same Westerners argued about the way in which Westerners and Thai did not respect the real traditions behind Songkran as their main bugbear,

I had an issue.

Were the same Westerners following religious festivals, because this is what Songkran is, in their own country in a proper manner?

Hence the analogy between Christmas...the biggest religious festival in the Western world, and Songkran..the same.

Is that ok ?

Edited April 15, 2013 by chonabot

[StreetCowboy]

I must be stupid, sorry I've re read your op and I still don't get your point Chonabot?

Likewise.

It isn't that difficult

I read many posts here about Songkran

Westerners did not like the way the festival impeded their own way of functioning normally over this 7 day period.

I agreed with this sentiment to a point.

But when the same Westerners argued about the way in which Westerners and Thai did not respect the real traditions behind Songkran as their main bugbear,

I had an issue.

Were the same Westerners following religious festivals, because this is what Songkran is, in their own country in a proper manner?

Hence the analogy between Christmas...the biggest religious festival in the Western world, and Songkran..the same.

Is that ok ?

I don't go to church, but I don't think that my avaricious consumerism is directly hazardous to motorcycles or greatly incommodes passers-by, bar the inconvenience of a few spurious sentimental wintry songs from late August in all the shopping malls. I think there's a big difference between wasteful spending on children's toys and tipping iced water over strangers.

SC

[chonabot]

I must be stupid, sorry I've re read your op and I still don't get your point Chonabot?

Likewise.

It isn't that difficult

I read many posts here about Songkran

Westerners did not like the way the festival impeded their own way of functioning normally over this 7 day period.

I agreed with this sentiment to a point.

But when the same Westerners argued about the way in which Westerners and Thai did not respect the real traditions behind Songkran as their main bugbear,

I had an issue.

Were the same Westerners following religious festivals, because this is what Songkran is, in their own country in a proper manner?

Hence the analogy between Christmas...the biggest religious festival in the Western world, and Songkran..the same.

Is that ok ?

I don't go to church, but I don't think that my avaricious consumerism is directly hazardous to motorcycles or greatly incommodes passers-by, bar the inconvenience of a few spurious sentimental wintry songs from late August in all the shopping malls. I think there's a big difference between wasteful spending on children's toys and tipping iced water over strangers.

SC

Connections are not always obvious, look beyond the physical

[yourauntbob]

Great post by the OP

As I drove through BKK today I couldnt help but notice that most of the people spraying water everywhere and acting like idiots were Thai teens/young adults. I am not criticizing, i think its great. The point is that this festival has turned into something more than its origin and its not us crazy farangs that have changed it. The similarities with Christmas and Songkran are huge and there is nothing wrong with enjoying it either way. Those who wish to avoid the "foolishness" do not need to try very hard to do so.

I hope everyone had a happy Songkran

[FunFon]

I don't think anyone was actually complaining about the lack of religious content in Thais' celebration of Songkran, just the fact that it makes the whole country a looney-tunes hazing ground where normal older people can't get anything done or even enjoy themselves for in some places a full week.

The point is not the religious angle, but just normal human consideration and allowing life to be pleasant, which the traditional, older style of celebration had in spades.

Don't have to be angels, just make like google and don't be evil. . .

[chonabot]

Many complained about the westerners lack of understanding, and some Thais.

I merely used Christmas as an analogy as it is the biggest 'religious' festival in the western world. Songkran is undoubtedly the biggest one here.

I guess it stumped a few too many.

But I enjoyed the thread

Merry Xmas all of you

[jcnbkk]

How many posters celebrate Christmas every year?

Do you all visit Church, or hold some kind of religious acknowledgement to the reason behind the event?

I think the way Songkran is changing is one of the results of 'westernization' of Thailand.

Funny as I was just saying this to my wife the other day.

She mentioned that on many Thai Forums she reads that many Thai's were not

thrilled with what Songkran has become.

I mentioned the exact analogy you did.

Except I used Christmas to illustrate many did not like what

it had become over the years

I said Christmas was once a marker for the day a man named Jesus was born

Today it is a marker for the arrival of some fat guy in a red suit & a white beard.

They pound the population for months in advance with get your shopping done

advertising

I also told her, what is even more odd is Easter once a marker for the day that same man

from Christmas origins died is now a marker for some Big Easter Bunny who leaves candy eggs for kids.

She did not ask why a Bunny leaves eggs instead of a chicken

Wanna know what's funny? Trying to explain Easter to a Buddhist: Yeah, well there's this bunny guy who hides coloured eggs and brings candy to kids. He really likes pink and blue. I think his name's Peter, no relation I don't think to this other Peter guy who is friends with this one guy Jesus who is three guys who was born from his mother who didn't have sex so he's kinda his own father and on easter he dies and goes to heaven to be with himself. Oh and he took all your sins with him even though you weren't born yet or did anything yet and oh yeah he's the one/three that made you like you are but don't do any more sins because ................

So we celebrate and eat alot.

All the best. Happy Easter

[jcnbkk]

Christmas is celebrated correctly by an ever dwindling band of Christians who have now been replaced by a band of people who think that Jesus was born so that they could get a new Ipad.

I know the answer to this one. We are agnostics.

Where do i collect my Ipad?

Seriously though waas it not always like this? Do you really human nature is any different now to thirty or a hundred years ago?

Human nature hasn't changed in a hundred thousand years, only the gods we seek for answers have.

So who do I pray to for that new iPad?

[canuckamuck]

I think we can agree that in some ways Songkran resembles Christmas festivities in the west, and in other ways it is poles apart.

But the idea of the thread was apparently that if you complain about Songkran not adhering to its religious intention, but you are not religious at Christmas. You are a big stinky hypocrite.

I enjoy all your posts Chonabot, but I think this wasn't one of your better efforts. Maybe a D-. But as you know, in Thailand no one fails.

[chonabot]

I think we can agree that in some ways Songkran resembles Christmas festivities in the west, and in other ways it is poles apart.

But the idea of the thread was apparently that if you complain about Songkran not adhering to its religious intention, but you are not religious at Christmas. You are a big stinky hypocrite.

I enjoy all your posts Chonabot, but I think this wasn't one of your better efforts. Maybe a D-. But as you know, in Thailand no one fails.

It had a good run but I agree, back to the drawing board

[ABCer]

I feel like Christmas in Australia is a 6 week long marketing event. Whoever can consume and spend the most is seen as having the spirit of Christmas

Yes, I celebrate Christmas every year only as a tradition, an excuse to make merry.

No, I am not a Church going person.

I do not mind Songkran celebrations and getting wet (have 2 huge water guns).

Objections.

I hate people putting any additives to water for Songkran dunking.

I hate commercialization of Cristmas around the world (missing Jesus driving the moneylenders from the Temple).

Note.

If somebody told me when to celebrate Turkish Bairam - I would. Like festivities.

[Trembly]

Christmas is celebrated correctly by an ever dwindling band of Christians who have now been replaced by a band of people who think that Jesus was born so that they could get a new Ipad.

. . . or think that Yule was invented by north European pagan-animists so that they could celebrate a Jewish permutation of sun worship whilst being very confused about it all thanks in no small part to the King James bible . . .

[FunFon]

Jewish permutation of sun worship?

-

Very curious about where you got that, pre-Christian northern European religions - "polytheism", "shamanism", "pantheism", or "animism" whatever label you'd like to use had AFAIK very little if any contact with Judaism, but I'd certainly like to find out more if I'm wrong. . .

[rene123]

This past Christmas was one of the first I had spent in a foreign country. It was a bit of a non-event in Chiang Mai. Loi Krathong was much more fun and so was New Years. I haven't experienced a Songkran yet, but I may stick around for it next year. Chirstmas was always good for me in Canada because it was a time when everyone got together in a party mood. I never personally thought of it as a religious holiday because I've never been interested in any church. I believe in faith, but not in organized faith run by some church of whatever religion: Christian, Islam, Jewish, Hindu, Buddha etc.

From what I've observed and studied through history, organized religion has been the cause of most of the world's problems and many past wars.

[FunFon]

From what I've observed and studied through history, organized religion has been the cause of most of the world's problems and many past wars.

-

Ancient history maybe, I think the past few hundred years can be laid at colonial-nationalism-capitalism-globalism's doorstep, usually a very thinly disguised grab for natural resources or control of markets.

And just rejecting organized religion (which I most enthusiastically do) shouldn't IMO imply throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

[muythai2013]

at least songkran is not interwoven with Germanic Paganism and stolen Pagan Dates.

[FunFon]

at least songkran is not interwoven with Germanic Paganism and stolen Pagan Dates.

-

The term paganism is pretty content-free unless you're actually an advocate of one of the monotheisms that claim to be the "only one true" church. Songkran is of course a pagan festival from that POV anyway.

Do you have something against the "Germanic" varieties of pre-Christian religions specifically?

Or are you pointing out that the Church used violent cultural-genocide tactics in wiping out the prior local religions, also the crusades etc, compared to the fact that Buddhism never had to resort to such?

If the latter then fair enough. . .

Edited April 19, 2013 by FunFon

[rene123]

From what I've observed and studied through history, organized religion has been the cause of most of the world's problems and many past wars.

-

Ancient history maybe, I think the past few hundred years can be laid at colonial-nationalism-capitalism-globalism's doorstep, usually a very thinly disguised grab for natural resources or control of markets.

And just rejecting organized religion (which I most enthusiastically do) shouldn't IMO imply throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

I won't argue with you on that. Just follow the money back to its source and you'll find the problem if there is one. It's the same with organized religion. The problems in this world are caused by either the greed for more money or more power. Unfortunately, many (most?) people are poorly educated and are easily manipulated by those in power. Those in power scam the local population by some religious message into believing their BS.

[muythai2013]

at least songkran is not interwoven with Germanic Paganism and stolen Pagan Dates.

-

The term paganism is pretty content-free unless you're actually an advocate of one of the monotheisms that claim to be the "only one true" church. Songkran is of course a pagan festival from that POV anyway.

Do you have something against the "Germanic" varieties of pre-Christian religions specifically?

Or are you pointing out that the Church used violent cultural-genocide tactics in wiping out the prior local religions, also the crusades etc, compared to the fact that Buddhism never had to resort to such?

If the latter then fair enough. . .

i pointed out what i pointed out, they were against pagans yet stole pagan beliefs,

[Trembly]

Jewish permutation of sun worship?

-

Very curious about where you got that, pre-Christian northern European religions - "polytheism", "shamanism", "pantheism", or "animism" whatever label you'd like to use had AFAIK very little if any contact with Judaism, but I'd certainly like to find out more if I'm wrong. . .

Well they had to have come into contact with some point in order to convert . . . and you don't need me to tell you that Jesus, the first testament and Israel are Semitic.

Google key words : Christianity, Sumerian tablets, sun worship.

Lots of interesting theories on youtube for your synthesis (I would give you names of videos and documentaries but I can't think of them right now; some of them shed light on the topic tangentially rather than approach it directly and are interesting documentaries in their own light).

Edit : There is a full BBC documentary called Jesus was a Buddhist Monk available on youtube.

Edited April 19, 2013 by Trembly

[FunFon]

I was specifically talking about northern Europe BC, which AFAIK had nothing to do with the thousands of other localized practices in Sumeria or other Semitic areas.

Obviously the sun was part of just about every ancient religion, stars, earth water too how could they not?

Those converting to Christianity didn't "steal" beliefs, any more than fish can "steal" water, they were just part of the zeitgeist within which the new religion arose, and the various memes always mix meld and merge as things roll along, sharp boundaries are only drawn at specific points where the power-mongers want to choose their battles for control over the masses.

And BTW you left out fame, a very strong motivator for some independent of wealth and power.

[theblether]

Christmas is celebrated correctly by an ever dwindling band of Christians who have now been replaced by a band of people who think that Jesus was born so that they could get a new Ipad.

. . . or think that Yule was invented by north European pagan-animists so that they could celebrate a Jewish permutation of sun worship whilst being very confused about it all thanks in no small part to the King James bible . . .

You do know that King James was Scottish?

We knew what we were doing