Songkran Versus Christmas

[chonabot]

I've enjoyed reading the various threads about Songkran and agree with a lot of the sentiment.

A few points have stuck in my mind, and is one of the main themes of the postings.

It goes a little like this:

• Many farang do not understand the concept behind Songkran
• It has turned into a crazy drinking festival.

How many posters celebrate Christmas every year?

Do you all visit Church, or hold some kind of religious acknowledgement to the reason behind the event?

I think the way Songkran is changing is one of the results of 'westernization' of Thailand.

Before anyone says - 'It's not the same'

It is fairly similar, we celebrate New Years, as do Thai's, but that is not a religious festival.

This is not intended as a 'Us vs Them' style of thread, I was just interested in your views on this, seemingly, overlooked comparison.

Edited April 14, 2013 by chonabot

[rijb]

Since Christmas has been shortened to 'Xmas', it's only fair that Songkran becomes '2kran'.

[NanLaew]

Interesting point you have there... maybe poll material?

Are the farang who are the most virulent and vocal Songkran haters here on TV;

A ) regular worshippers in their own chosen faith or are they

B ) empty, lonely, spiritless atheists with the misfortune of having chosen Thailand as their home?

[theblether]

Christmas is celebrated correctly by an ever dwindling band of Christians who have now been replaced by a band of people who think that Jesus was born so that they could get a new Ipad.

[theblether]

Interesting point you have there... maybe poll material?

Are the farang who are the most virulent and vocal Songkran haters here on TV;

A ) regular worshippers in their own chosen faith or are they

B ) empty, lonely, spiritless atheists with the misfortune of having chosen Thailand as their home?

B ) Commonly shortened to Thaivisa members.

[BookMan]

I feel like Christmas in Australia is a 6 week long marketing event. Whoever can consume and spend the most is seen as having the spirit of Christmas

[smokie36]

Christmas is celebrated correctly by an ever dwindling band of Christians who have now been replaced by a band of people who think that Jesus was born so that they could get a new Ipad.

I know the answer to this one. We are agnostics.

Where do i collect my Ipad?

Seriously though waas it not always like this? Do you really human nature is any different now to thirty or a hundred years ago?

[chonabot]

I went to Church 30 years ago , now I pray at the altar of online poker...but that's just me

As this thread is pointing towards the religious significance of the two festivals, it is interesting to note that the

amount of Christians in the UK have fallen by 58 per cent in the last 70 years - so I would argue that human nature is vastly different

now in comparison to the last century.

The percentage of church goers is predicted to drop another 50 per cent in the next 10 years.

But the sales of 'Xmas' presents will undoubtedly rise.

http://www.whychurch.org.uk/trends.php

Edited April 14, 2013 by chonabot

[smokie36]

I went to Church 30 years ago , now I pray at the altar of online poker...but that's just me

As this thread is pointing towards the religious significance of the two festivals, it is interesting to note that the

amount of Christians in the UK have fallen by 58 per cent in the last 70 years - so I would argue that human nature is vastly different

now in comparison to the last century.

The percentage of church goers is predicted to drop another 50 per cent in the next 10 years.

But the sales of 'Xmas' presents will undoubtedly rise.

http://www.whychurch.org.uk/trends.php

Perhaps there will be online church services for those of us too busy (read lazy) to attend?

I see many churches being converted into bars and nightclubs.

[theblether]

I went to Church 30 years ago , now I pray at the altar of online poker...but that's just me

As this thread is pointing towards the religious significance of the two festivals, it is interesting to note that the

amount of Christians in the UK have fallen by 58 per cent in the last 70 years - so I would argue that human nature is vastly different

now in comparison to the last century.

The percentage of church goers is predicted to drop another 50 per cent in the next 10 years.

But the sales of 'Xmas' presents will undoubtedly rise.

http://www.whychurch.org.uk/trends.php

Perhaps there will be online church services for those of us too busy (read lazy) to attend?

I see many churches being converted into bars and nightclubs.

They make good carpet shops. ( that's me being self interested again, as I own carpet shops. ).

Christianity was doomed once the printing press was invented, it unleashed a desire to learn, and opened up reading to the masses, once the masses started to read they started to question what they were being told from the pulpit. The stranglehold that the church had on learning before was broken forever, and the mysticism exposed.

It's no coincidence that the Protestant Reformation began at the same time as the invention of the printing press, ( give or take ).

Anyway, the same thing will unfold here in Thailand, the more educated the populace becomes the less importance will be placed on religion. The OP talks about the Westernization of Thailand, I think a more accurate phrase would be the homogenization of Thailand

Thailand takes it's influences from many sources, it's not all a matter of the Bad West corrupting Little Ickle Thailand. I predict the descent of Thailand into being a predominantly secular society being even faster than that of the West. This will happen as our access to outside influences due to the internet has never been greater, and what was accepted before as a matter of Blind Faith will be questioned.

Give it a few years and I'll be able to open a chain of carpets shops in newly abandoned Buddhist Temples.

[chonabot]

Nice points and well made

I studied World Religions as part of my OU degree, and find a lot of similarities between the Torah/Bible/Koran.

I wonder if any of the Songkran 'westerners do not understand and should not take part' brigade have any examples of their own Christmas activities to share here?

It would be particularly nice to hear about attending Mass, Christmas parties and symbolic gifts for their children.

I'm sure none of them are hypocrites....

Edited April 14, 2013 by chonabot

[smokie36]

I take it you'll be selling water pistols at Songkran too?

[Keith67]

I personally think the concept of Christmas is still the same but religion has changed dramatically over the past 2-3 decades as has most western religions i.e. Catholicism and Christianity basically due the bad publicity received by both churches, people do not take kindly to church hierarchy covering for child molesters and paedophiles within their communities hence the dropping number of church goers, this doesn't mean they are non-believers in the faith just in the ambassadors entrusted to promote it. The latest accusations being laid at the feet of the recently resigned Pope, people have to ask how he could be allowed to gain the highest position possible within the Catholic Church with the now proven knowledge of what he had done.

[theblether]

I take it you'll be selling water pistols at Songkran too?

I'd be more interested in getting a franchise from the police to fine stupid farangs.

I'd be rich, I'm telling you, rich.

[Indrid Cold]

the increase in road accidents are the same.

you could blame the westernization of thailand but what force westernize the west etc. etc.

[NanLaew]

I went to Church 30 years ago , now I pray at the altar of online poker...but that's just me

As this thread is pointing towards the religious significance of the two festivals, it is interesting to note that the

amount of Christians in the UK have fallen by 58 per cent in the last 70 years - so I would argue that human nature is vastly different

now in comparison to the last century.

The percentage of church goers is predicted to drop another 50 per cent in the next 10 years.

But the sales of 'Xmas' presents will undoubtedly rise.

http://www.whychurch.org.uk/trends.php

Perhaps there will be online church services for those of us too busy (read lazy) to attend?

I see many churches being converted into bars and nightclubs.

They make good carpet shops. ( that's me being self interested again, as I own carpet shops. ).

....

Give it a few years and I'll be able to open a chain of carpets shops in newly abandoned Buddhist Temples.

Indeed, don't ever forget that the global phenomena of 'Wat-a-Carpet' was hatched right here by a Scotsman.

[BookMan]

I went to Church 30 years ago , now I pray at the altar of online poker...but that's just me

As this thread is pointing towards the religious significance of the two festivals, it is interesting to note that the

amount of Christians in the UK have fallen by 58 per cent in the last 70 years - so I would argue that human nature is vastly different

now in comparison to the last century.

The percentage of church goers is predicted to drop another 50 per cent in the next 10 years.

But the sales of 'Xmas' presents will undoubtedly rise.

http://www.whychurch.org.uk/trends.php

Perhaps there will be online church services for those of us too busy (read lazy) to attend?

I see many churches being converted into bars and nightclubs.

They make good carpet shops. ( that's me being self interested again, as I own carpet shops. ).

Christianity was doomed once the printing press was invented, it unleashed a desire to learn, and opened up reading to the masses, once the masses started to read they started to question what they were being told from the pulpit. The stranglehold that the church had on learning before was broken forever, and the mysticism exposed.

It's no coincidence that the Protestant Reformation began at the same time as the invention of the printing press, ( give or take ).

Anyway, the same thing will unfold here in Thailand, the more educated the populace becomes the less importance will be placed on religion. The OP talks about the Westernization of Thailand, I think a more accurate phrase would be the homogenization of Thailand

Thailand takes it's influences from many sources, it's not all a matter of the Bad West corrupting Little Ickle Thailand. I predict the descent of Thailand into being a predominantly secular society being even faster than that of the West. This will happen as our access to outside influences due to the internet has never been greater, and what was accepted before as a matter of Blind Faith will be questioned.

Give it a few years and I'll be able to open a chain of carpets shops in newly abandoned Buddhist Temples.

Smokie's thoughts on places of worship becoming bars is interesting. I can see tourists appreciating some heritage while imbibing their favourite drop from back home.

[pattayadingo]

Christmas starts in October in the U.K.

Songkran starts a few days before Songkran.

Christmas was a religious festival before we realised Christianity is a load of hogwash since the big bang theory.

Songkran has changed a lot in some places. There are many places where Songkran is the same or similar to what it has always been - that being the sprinkling of water on the hands of the Matriarch.

Songkran is not rammed down your throats with the equivalent of Christmas Carols for months on end, or a constant barrage of tv adverts.

I'd relate Songkran as the equivalent to the old Pagan festivals the we used to have in the west before Christianity took over.

[smokie36]

@Bookman....http://thechurchlondon.com/

[chonabot]

Christmas starts in October in the U.K.

Songkran starts a few days before Songkran.

Christmas was a religious festival before we realised Christianity is a load of hogwash since the big bang theory.

Songkran has changed a lot in some places. There are many places where Songkran is the same or similar to what it has always been - that being the sprinkling of water on the hands of the Matriarch.

Songkran is not rammed down your throats with the equivalent of Christmas Carols for months on end, or a constant barrage of tv adverts. - Give it time

I'd relate Songkran as the equivalent to the old Pagan festivals the we used to have in the west before Christianity took over.

Good points, do you participate in both festivals ?

[FunFon]

Christmas was a religious festival before we realised Christianity is a load of hogwash since the big bang theory.

-

And immediately proceeded to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

[Indrid Cold]

yesterday i talked with two friends, one who has a 30 min. motorbike ride to work that ride now takes hours and she would be soaking at arrival, she chooses to stay home and tries to keep the spirit up by comunicating traditional songkran texts and pictures to her friends.

the other works as receptionist at a hotel, the stress this puts on her makes her into a mean bitch and this is a very sweet lady when not in her songkran mood. they both live in bkk.

on the other hand my girlfriends 15 year old daughter loves songkran and i side up with her against her mom when it comes to her festives this festival. she bought a 50 bath watergun, neadless to say i was not impressed how it preformed so i bought her a 250 bath heavy soaker, she loves me.

many will say that i buy her affection but i dont see it like that, i prefer to see what i make possibly for her. i gave her one of my very standard android phones that the phone company in sweden had given to me. now she can swap phone covers with her friends all the time. i know what im contributing too but this is the price i pay for parental love and i love this young lady as my own daughter. dilemma.

[mania]

How many posters celebrate Christmas every year?

Do you all visit Church, or hold some kind of religious acknowledgement to the reason behind the event?

I think the way Songkran is changing is one of the results of 'westernization' of Thailand.

Funny as I was just saying this to my wife the other day.

She mentioned that on many Thai Forums she reads that many Thai's were not

thrilled with what Songkran has become.

I mentioned the exact analogy you did.

Except I used Christmas to illustrate many did not like what

it had become over the years

I said Christmas was once a marker for the day a man named Jesus was born

Today it is a marker for the arrival of some fat guy in a red suit & a white beard.

They pound the population for months in advance with get your shopping done

advertising

I also told her, what is even more odd is Easter once a marker for the day that same man

from Christmas origins died is now a marker for some Big Easter Bunny who leaves candy eggs for kids.

She did not ask why a Bunny leaves eggs instead of a chicken

[Tywais]

Christianity was doomed once the printing press was invented,

What was the very first book printed on a moveable printing press?

[FunFon]

She did not ask why a Bunny leaves eggs instead of a chicken

-

The Lord work in mysterious ways. . .

[enyaw]

How many posters celebrate Christmas every year?


Do you all visit Church, or hold some kind of religious acknowledgement to the reason behind the event?


I think the way Songkran is changing is one of the results of 'westernization' of Thailand.

You're comparing the celebration of the Thai new year (fun) to the celebration of the birth of Christ. Apples and oranges?

Edited April 14, 2013 by enyaw

[chonabot]

How many posters celebrate Christmas every year?

Do you all visit Church, or hold some kind of religious acknowledgement to the reason behind the event?

I think the way Songkran is changing is one of the results of 'westernization' of Thailand.

Wait a minute here, you're comparing the celebration of the Thai new year (fun) to the celebration of the birth of Christ. Apples and oranges?

I was making an analogy between the two, but to make a point - questioning whether or not the Songkran ( Farang do not understand and therefore should not take part ) brigade, known hereafter as the SFDNUATSNTPB, followed their own high standards regarding celebrating religious festivals.

[enyaw]

How many posters celebrate Christmas every year?

Do you all visit Church, or hold some kind of religious acknowledgement to the reason behind the event?

I think the way Songkran is changing is one of the results of 'westernization' of Thailand.

Wait a minute here, you're comparing the celebration of the Thai new year (fun) to the celebration of the birth of Christ. Apples and oranges?

I was making an analogy between the two, but to make a point - questioning whether or not the Songkran ( Farang do not understand and therefore should not take part ) brigade, known hereafter as the SFDNUATSNTPB, followed their own high standards regarding celebrating religious festivals.

Got yer. I think everyone should enjoy the festivities it falls on the hottest dryest time of year in Thailand although it must piss those off who live in or close to a tourist center where it goes to the extreme?

Back to your analogy the birth of christ falls on or close to the winter solstice (so we are told) in the northern hemisphere these are darkest winter days. It was tradition along before the introduction of christianity to hold festivities at this time, burning of the yuletide log, decorations, excessive drinking and eating, gifts, having fun basically or trying to.

Edited April 14, 2013 by enyaw

[arthurwait]

Am I reading this wrong or are you saying that a large percentage of the Thai population getting steaming drunk is due to westernisation ?

I think the percentage that doesn't get drunk , does the religious bit and then goes to the mall and has a meal in a foreign restaurant instead is more to do with westernisation.

[FunFon]

enyaw, on 14 Apr 2013 - 12:11, said:

Back to your analogy the birth of christ falls on or close to the winter solstice (so we are told) in the northern hemisphere these are darkest winter days. It was tradition along before the introduction of christianity to hold festivities at this time, burning of the yuletide log, decorations, excessive drinking and eating, gifts, having fun basically or trying to.

-

The Church simply co-opted those festivities and re-labeled them, along with placing the cathedrals in the eternally sacred power locations, making saints out of the local small-g gods etc etc.

The spiritual kernel of truth at the heart of Christianity is as secret and well-hidden as (IMO the same) one at the heart of Islam.

All the rest is political/economically motivated control of the population by the usual elites.