Why Not More Solar Energy?

[Danbit]

I just got it in Denmark, Chinese panels and inverters. 6 KWh price about 325.000B and I can return the overproduction to the grid. Cost of 1 KWh is 125B in Denmark, then it pays.

[LeCharivari]

There are currently several solar farms being built across Thailand which will feed the main grid, in Korat, Suphanburi and kanchanaburi and other places I do not know about. European expertise and sub-contractors have been helping on these projects. I am unsure whether they are government funded or by the electricity board.

... and in Pattaya, as there's one just outside Huay Yai.

[jackflash]

I forgot to respond to these comments...

> no real freezer? No microwave? What do you use to make toast or roast a
> chicken?

I have a small freezer which is all I need.

And yes I do use a microwave as they are quite efficient in their use of power.

I make toast on my gas stove with a camping toaster, and I cook roasts in either my gas or my wood fired stove.

Again these comments illustrate how the problem with Solar is mostly people's attitude and ignorance.

[jbrain]

I just got it in Denmark, Chinese panels and inverters. 6 KWh price about 325.000B and I can return the overproduction to the grid. Cost of 1 KWh is 125B in Denmark, then it pays.

Indeed in that case it isn't difficult to be cost effective, but are you sure about the KWh price, as that is about 25 times of what it cost in Thailand and most place in the world.

[Baerboxer]

Several years ago I was involved in a number of alternative energy projects in the UK, Southern Europe and the US. These included developing one the largest UK "wind farms" and part powering a major data centre with solar panels. All projects had one common denominator - that is they were only viable with government subsidies. There were many different types of subsidies available at that time - grants central and local government, tax incentives, guaranteed prices to sell into the grid, carbon credits etc. Without these the projects were simply financially unviable, mainly due to the high intial capital costs - securing land and obtaining planning permission, cost of equipent and grid connection etc etc. There was no an over abundance of capable quality suppliers or established robust supply chains at that time either. So leadtimes were long and prices high,

Clearly a combination of political, social, economic, technological,legal and environmental forces impacted. Certainly the anti and pro climate change supporters were voiciferous at that time, and some political parties had very different opinions. But, the market was where is was, and that's what we had to operate in.

No subsidies = project stopped.

[seligne]

Put photovoltaic aside for the moment...

When I first travelled to Japan in 1973 I noticed black water tanks on the roofs of virtually every rural home. Passive solar water heaters.

In two years in Thailand I have seen exactly one such installation. I am flabbergasted that this nation, which washes dishes in cold water, has not adopted this very simple, low-cost technology: free hot water or at the very least pre-heated hot water.

[somtampet]

There was a programme on true a few days ago.Basicaly we are 5 years away from a huge improvement based on storing solar energy,which has always been a problem of solar panels,NO sun in no power.

The idea is to replica a leaf,yes photo synthasis,whereby the cells can store solar energy,hence capturing the sun,s energy. On paper it sounded a huge breakthru,so lets wait and see

[khunPer]

I just got it in Denmark, Chinese panels and inverters. 6 KWh price about 325.000B and I can return the overproduction to the grid. Cost of 1 KWh is 125B in Denmark, then it pays.

25 DKK for 1KWh ?

[DekDaeng]

Some interesting vids on youtube on making your own solar panels - not too difficult. Greenpowerscience is one poster.

Cells on eBay or Alibaba for 20 - 40 cents / watt. (That's what they say)

Might look into it more in the future.

[DekDaeng]

There are currently several solar farms being built across Thailand which will feed the main grid, in Korat, Suphanburi and kanchanaburi and other places I do not know about. European expertise and sub-contractors have been helping on these projects. I am unsure whether they are government funded or by the electricity board.

... and in Pattaya, as there's one just outside Huay Yai.

Got a KMZ for it?

[mogandave]

Big solar farm and panal manufacturing (I think) facility 30 km east of BKK right off the motorway, Chachensao exist.

[brummiebob]

a lot of new factories these days try to be green with solar cells on their roof, Toyota in Chachoensao for example

A few decades ago solar hot water heater on the roof was all the rage, what happened to them?

Water in my stainless tank in the back of the house gets pretty hot enough until 8pm even

Rainwater collection too, only certain parts of country seem to do it, in my other house we have to dig a hole for bore water, yet all the rain from the gutter just waste away down the drain, even for watering the lawn it would be fine, most Chinese Thai seems pretty thrifty, a grey water recycling system like in Australia would probably go down well too

[Kitsune]

a lot of new factories these days try to be green with solar cells on their roof, Toyota in Chachoensao for example

That is called green washing

[rsokolowski]

I was toying with the idea of going solar, and wind!, but a quick calculation was that it would take over 20 years to see a return on the investment. Maybe worth it from an ethical standpoint but for me the economics aren't worth it now.

That sounds about the right amount of time to see a return on investment. The problem is that the solar cells are only good for about 25 years, so right about the time you pay off the initial investment, it is time to buy all the equipment again. No thanks. The only reason it makes sense in the west is that your investment is subsidized by the government. No subsidy=no value, unless it is a religious experience for you (i.e. helping to save mother earth).

Please explain about the returns on a $100 solar hot water heater if you will....

$100 is a tank on the roof.

I use a lot more electric cooling air than heating water. I have a water cooled heat excanger that gives me all the hot water I can use for free.

I also have a solar water because it saves me money, was affordable, and helps to reduce my energy use. I will by a PV system when it saves me money and it is affordable. Right now PV is not there.

[jbrain]

$100 is a tank on the roof.

I use a lot more electric cooling air than heating water. I have a water cooled heat excanger that gives me all the hot water I can use for free.

Care to tell us how much that heat exchanger cost you ?

[StreetCowboy]

Actually, BP invests heavily in solar panels/technology, I guess they are diversifying and can see the end of fossil fuels.

-

Whole operation designed by and run from the PR department, as with any large company's "CSR" program.

All the big oil co's have seen the "green" light over the past ten years or so, pure window dressing IMO, try to help damage control from their environmental devastation, keep stockholders from feeling guilty for profiting from blood money.

My cousin's husband works on their solar projects

[Feesbay John]

Our electric bill has gone down from 3500 baht per month to 1000 baht and I am now working on getting it down to 0000 baht.

We sell and make our own solar panels making it cheaper to have solar. We can now sell factory made ( Suntech ) 280w solar panels for 9,950 baht. Solar is getting cheaper per watt and for me I think it is well worth doing here in Thailand.

I would recommend to start with a few panels and build it up slowly. One step at a time can help you save and help save the environment. Electric here is not cheap and its going up in price each year.

[jbrain]

Our electric bill has gone down from 3500 baht per month to 1000 baht and I am now working on getting it down to 0000 baht.

We sell and make our own solar panels making it cheaper to have solar. We can now sell factory made ( Suntech ) 280w solar panels for 9,950 baht. Solar is getting cheaper per watt and for me I think it is well worth doing here in Thailand.

I would recommend to start with a few panels and build it up slowly. One step at a time can help you save and help save the environment. Electric here is not cheap and its going up in price each year.

I have 350m² house with aircons, swimming pool, Tv in every room, own waterwell and so much more and I haven't paid once over 3000 Baht electric in the past 12 months. So I guess if you paid 3500 Baht previously that you must have quite a big house also with many aircons, large fridges and freezers and swimming pool.

So can you please tell us how many of those 280W panels and how many deep cycle batteries you gonna need to take your house off grid?

I assume you haven't sold your aircons yet to get to the 1000 Baht monthly bill .

Edited April 16, 2013 by jbrain

[manarak]

The reason is that solar energy is not profitable yet if it isn't subsidized. You can buy cheaper electricity from the power company as it would cost you to generate yourself if you calculate all your expenses, and that is if you don't have the bad luck that some panels get damaged as they are very fragille.

In Europe previously it was heavily subsidized by the governments, which has scaled back now, and you can sell your " overproduction " back to the electricity company.

Here in Thailand there is none of this.

Also note that since the subsidizing has stopped in the western world, almost every solar company is in bad papers, where the biggest one in the world Suntech Power has defaulted last week.

Maybe in 10 years but not yet.

spot on.

I tried to make calculations planning a solar energy installation on my roof, but the numbers didn't add up, FAR FROM IT.

As a solution for the world, I believe much more in using nature's huge power resources (volcanoes, geothermal energy, hydropower, solar collectors, ...) and use them to produce power for local use and hydrogen for portable use.

Edited April 16, 2013 by manarak

[mogandave]

$100 is a tank on the roof.

I use a lot more electric cooling air than heating water. I have a water cooled heat excanger that gives me all the hot water I can use for free.

Care to tell us how much that heat exchanger cost you ?

It cost me nothing but a half day of labor.

[Blumpkin]

Yes it's all the evil oil companies, easy to run the airbus a380 on electric power

and how do you produce the electricity to power all the cars in the west, with coal fired plants or by adding more nuclear reactors ?

There is a British company, ITM, that has a solution to produce hydrogen from renewable sources.

In the not so distant future it will be cost effective to generate and store your own hydrogen that can be used to power your car and home.

Why would you need to produce hydrogen from renewable sources?It is the most abundant chemical element in the universe,making up 75% of normal matter by mass and over 90% by number of atoms!

Lithium-Ion batteries power today's Teslas,S-Class Mercedes,Chevrolet Volts etc.

There is a massive cost to the enviroment to be paid for extracting Lithium from places like Southern Bolivia's Salar De Uyuni, a little-known but expansive desert of cactus,rainwater lagoons and ten billion tons of salt covering nearly 5,000 square miles.The US Geological Survey claims at least 5.4 million tons of lithium could be extracted in Salar De Uyuni, while another report puts it as high as nine million tons.

For local populations,life could easily start to mirror the scene from last year's James Bond film Quantum of Solace,in which wells dry up after water is stolen by the film's baddie and villagers are forced to join collectives to buy their share.Far from being outlandish,the film may prove particularly pertinent as local South American populations find themselves having to buy water after big mining companies suck the land dry!

I'm pretty sure that most solar panel manufacturers prefer Lithium-Ion batteries over AGM VRLA batteries as they are a quarter of the weight and charge 50% faster.

[manarak]

Why would you need to produce hydrogen from renewable sources?It is the most abundant chemical element in the universe,making up 75% of normal matter by mass and over 90% by number of atoms!

I don't understand your post. We are clearly talking molecules, i.e. dihydrogen or H2 and not atoms... Edited April 16, 2013 by manarak

[Feesbay John]

Our electric bill has gone down from 3500 baht per month to 1000 baht and I am now working on getting it down to 0000 baht.

We sell and make our own solar panels making it cheaper to have solar. We can now sell factory made ( Suntech ) 280w solar panels for 9,950 baht. Solar is getting cheaper per watt and for me I think it is well worth doing here in Thailand.

I would recommend to start with a few panels and build it up slowly. One step at a time can help you save and help save the environment. Electric here is not cheap and its going up in price each year.

I have 350m² house with aircons, swimming pool, Tv in every room, own waterwell and so much more and I haven't paid once over 3000 Baht electric in the past 12 months. So I guess if you paid 3500 Baht previously that you must have quite a big house also with many aircons, large fridges and freezers and swimming pool.

So can you please tell us how many of those 280W panels and how many deep cycle batteries you gonna need to take your house off grid?

I assume you haven't sold your aircons yet to get to the 1000 Baht monthly bill .

see you are miss the point of so much with solar, why would i need a battery bank when all I or you need is a grid tie inverter, which puts the electric back into the grid, turning the meter back wards when one is not using it. or slowing it down when you are using electric. I do have a 4 bed room home with 3 air cons and a 360 sq meter unit ( work shop ) But just buy changing thinks like lights to led and turning off items that are not been used has also helped. So many people do not understand how solar can help.

[jbrain]

Our electric bill has gone down from 3500 baht per month to 1000 baht and I am now working on getting it down to 0000 baht.

We sell and make our own solar panels making it cheaper to have solar. We can now sell factory made ( Suntech ) 280w solar panels for 9,950 baht. Solar is getting cheaper per watt and for me I think it is well worth doing here in Thailand.

I would recommend to start with a few panels and build it up slowly. One step at a time can help you save and help save the environment. Electric here is not cheap and its going up in price each year.

I have 350m² house with aircons, swimming pool, Tv in every room, own waterwell and so much more and I haven't paid once over 3000 Baht electric in the past 12 months. So I guess if you paid 3500 Baht previously that you must have quite a big house also with many aircons, large fridges and freezers and swimming pool.

So can you please tell us how many of those 280W panels and how many deep cycle batteries you gonna need to take your house off grid?

I assume you haven't sold your aircons yet to get to the 1000 Baht monthly bill .

see you are miss the point of so much with solar, why would i need a battery bank when all I or you need is a grid tie inverter, which puts the electric back into the grid, turning the meter back wards when one is not using it. or slowing it down when you are using electric. I do have a 4 bed room home with 3 air cons and a 360 sq meter unit ( work shop ) But just buy changing thinks like lights to led and turning off items that are not been used has also helped. So many people do not understand how solar can help.

And do you live in Thailand also, because as far as I'm aware the power buyback doesn't exist yet in Thailand.

But since you claim to currently use it, then it would be very helpful if you could post a link to the appropriate page on the EGAT or PEA website.

How many Kw of panels have you installed ?

[Feesbay John]

Our electric bill has gone down from 3500 baht per month to 1000 baht and I am now working on getting it down to 0000 baht.

We sell and make our own solar panels making it cheaper to have solar. We can now sell factory made ( Suntech ) 280w solar panels for 9,950 baht. Solar is getting cheaper per watt and for me I think it is well worth doing here in Thailand.

I would recommend to start with a few panels and build it up slowly. One step at a time can help you save and help save the environment. Electric here is not cheap and its going up in price each year.

I have 350m² house with aircons, swimming pool, Tv in every room, own waterwell and so much more and I haven't paid once over 3000 Baht electric in the past 12 months. So I guess if you paid 3500 Baht previously that you must have quite a big house also with many aircons, large fridges and freezers and swimming pool.

So can you please tell us how many of those 280W panels and how many deep cycle batteries you gonna need to take your house off grid?

I assume you haven't sold your aircons yet to get to the 1000 Baht monthly bill .

see you are miss the point of so much with solar, why would i need a battery bank when all I or you need is a grid tie inverter, which puts the electric back into the grid, turning the meter back wards when one is not using it. or slowing it down when you are using electric. I do have a 4 bed room home with 3 air cons and a 360 sq meter unit ( work shop ) But just buy changing thinks like lights to led and turning off items that are not been used has also helped. So many people do not understand how solar can help.

And do you live in Thailand also, because as far as I'm aware the power buyback doesn't exist yet in Thailand.

But since you claim to currently use it, then it would be very helpful if you could post a link to the appropriate page on the EGAT or PEA website.

How many Kw of panels have you installed ?

I have lived here for the last 9 years and yes you can sell back to the power company, just 6 months ago you could get 11 baht per kw but it has gone down to 7.5 baht per kw over the last 2 months and it is getting harder to get the electric company to pass a system, I am at the moment installing 5.88kw x 2 as one is for his home and the other is for his factory. Plus many other projects. AND have installed many a kw in the past.

Ring your local electric company and just ask them if it is OK for you to install solar. Around here they love it. A grid tie inverter will only put electric back into the grid if there is electric. So if you have a power cut it will stop working,

[laislica]

Again, it's got a very long way to go before being cost-effective in locations anywhere close to mains power lines.

All the success stories are subsidised experiments or PR exercises - which is great, should be more - but don't think it makes any economic sense unless you need to/want to live out in the bush where there won't be any power line for decades.

Campervans and yachts are good use cases.

-

Little details followup - the yes very expensive deep-cycle batteries are usually available second-hand at periodic auctions from telcos, and will even then often last 3-6 more years of regular use if properly sized and maintained.

AC conversion is very wasteful, better whenever possible to use lights and electronics designed for DC in the first place, like dichroic halogen bulbs and automotive AV gear.

Extreme reduction and conservation in usage has to be combined with alternative production for any alternative energy to make sense in practice.

Hmmmm,

Sounds easy when you say it fast.

The problem with camper vans is that you try like hell to park em in the shade, otherwise you are living in an oven.

Secondly, the output wattage goes down as the panel's temperature rises. To get the rated output you need to be somewhere with minus temperatures, full sun and the ability to point the panel in the optimised direction throughout the day. All that glitters is not gold!

As to DC lighting, it's just not efficient compared to the low wattage coiled florescent lamps. The waste heat generated in the conversion via an inverter is away from the living space, the heat given off from a DC lamp is uncomfortably warm, can be a fire hazard etc.

There is no need for space heating here, power for a TV and a few lights and fans - not aircon.

Oh and the chargers for the latest iPhones and tablets LOL

High wattage systems like kettles, food processors, washing machines, aircon etc need a generator.

If you are going to install big batteries, consider using fork lift truck batteries.

As to yachts, the small wind gens do an awesome job and I'm not sure if a solar panel would be rugged enough unless your yacht is huge of course.

I have read that Tessla invented a power generator that collects it's energy from the universe and the design was stopped. Now if that could be made to work..........

I'm sure that Dancealot would be overjoyed. Truly free energy (after the initial startup costs)

[Lantern]

High wattage systems like kettles, food processors, washing machines, aircon etc need a generator.

More rubbish.

How come I had a toaster, washing machine and didn't ever have a generator.

Get your facts right, please.

BTW my batteries eventually died when my renter ran his welder off my inverter to fix up his Holden.

The batteries were 20 years old!

[Dancealot]

Hmmmm,

Again, it's got a very long way to go before being cost-effective in locations anywhere close to mains power lines.

All the success stories are subsidised experiments or PR exercises - which is great, should be more - but don't think it makes any economic sense unless you need to/want to live out in the bush where there won't be any power line for decades.

Campervans and yachts are good use cases.

-

Little details followup - the yes very expensive deep-cycle batteries are usually available second-hand at periodic auctions from telcos, and will even then often last 3-6 more years of regular use if properly sized and maintained.

AC conversion is very wasteful, better whenever possible to use lights and electronics designed for DC in the first place, like dichroic halogen bulbs and automotive AV gear.

Extreme reduction and conservation in usage has to be combined with alternative production for any alternative energy to make sense in practice.

Sounds easy when you say it fast.

The problem with camper vans is that you try like hell to park em in the shade, otherwise you are living in an oven.

Secondly, the output wattage goes down as the panel's temperature rises. To get the rated output you need to be somewhere with minus temperatures, full sun and the ability to point the panel in the optimised direction throughout the day. All that glitters is not gold!

As to DC lighting, it's just not efficient compared to the low wattage coiled florescent lamps. The waste heat generated in the conversion via an inverter is away from the living space, the heat given off from a DC lamp is uncomfortably warm, can be a fire hazard etc.

There is no need for space heating here, power for a TV and a few lights and fans - not aircon.

Oh and the chargers for the latest iPhones and tablets LOL

High wattage systems like kettles, food processors, washing machines, aircon etc need a generator.

If you are going to install big batteries, consider using fork lift truck batteries.

As to yachts, the small wind gens do an awesome job and I'm not sure if a solar panel would be rugged enough unless your yacht is huge of course.

I have read that Tessla invented a power generator that collects it's energy from the universe and the design was stopped. Now if that could be made to work..........

I'm sure that Dancealot would be overjoyed. Truly free energy (after the initial startup costs)

Is that you? Laislica? Havent seen you around for months.. Hi!

I am an idealist yes. Often this means not a realist also. I like to dream and in this case love to look at some houses people have built how ugly they may seem are totally self maintained, energy wise. I remember that first Casio wrist watch with solar panels on them and their first solar powered calculator!

I was amazed back in the 80's and as a bright kid i thought already.. "Hmmm duracell is not going to like this".

Later it turned out to power up my RC turbo panther remote controlled toy car, solar cells didnt provide enough power.

"Sigh, back to Duracell"

That was 30 years ago! If develeopment of alternative energy was encouraged more the world would be a different place. I am sure!

I am talking about gas, fire, water and electricity. And my ideal situation. No washing machine/ no airco, etc...

Only thing i want power for is a few lights, notebook or 2, small fridge and a TV. Thats my ideal situation.

It is not so difficult if you live in a warm country. More difficult indeed like posters have stated and i like to rephrase one of the funniest lines in this thread, excuse me i cant remember the posters'name.

"I saw one house with solar panels completely covered in snow"

True, true nothing is perfect.

Doens't take away the fact that using solar power is pretty smart. Many of my neighbours in The Netherlands who can afford them are already generating so much electricity they have too much and will supply to the power companies.

I want this also, a big gas bottle and an electrical or natural water heating system in my house.

Being independant is what it is all about to me.

On a small consumer scale Solar energy is the way to go!

Edited April 16, 2013 by Dancealot

[chiang mai]

Posters should drive from Chiang Mai to Tak, on the right hand side of the road just before entering Tak are two very large solar farms, each containg several hundred panels, similar farms exist elsewhere nearby.

[laislica]

Posters should drive from Chiang Mai to Tak, on the right hand side of the road just before entering Tak are two very large solar farms, each containg several hundred panels, similar farms exist elsewhere nearby.

Aye, near my village in the south of Spain there are two huge tilting and rotating collectors that are used to power a large factory.

Nearby there are many static panel farms for the mains grid.