Twin Bomb Explosions Shatter Boston Marathon Finish Line

[SteeleJoe]

OK, the FBI has suspect pictures, two people actually:

They look ethnically ambiguous but could be (but nowhere near definitely) Middle Eastern and they are YOUNGER men. Younger men points more to Islamic terrorists vs. domestic right wing terrorists would be more likely to be OLDER angry white men.

JT, you have been intentionally careful in your assessment but it is correct. One (perhaps both) of those suspects clearly does not look white Anglo Saxon. He could easily pass for Middle Eastern, maybe Hispanic or even South Asian (Indian). That then raises the question: do Hispanics or Indians have a history of terrorist bombings in America? What are we left with by process of elimination?

It would be a foolish mistake to go by process of elimination based on what country's nationals do or don't have a history of terrorist bombings in America: fortunately it's not one the experts will make.

Leaving aside the fact that there is, literally, a first time for everything that ever happens, there are extremists everywhere of a vast array of variations including that of nationality. Even if we talk about the most obvious group that is at the front of everyone's mind, Islamist terrorists, al Qaeda and it's offshoots or loose affiliates are on every continent: back in the day people in camps in Afghanistan represented dozens of countries and ethnicities that went well beyond the Middle East; (white) Europeans, Africans, South Asians, Hispanic and on from every continent and region.

Moreover, the fervent desire of al Q has long been to find operatives who DON'T match the profile to conduct operations in the US and Europe. Jose Padilla? Not only Hispanic but an American - what al Q wanted most of all (provided they, like Padilla, had the right commitment and preferably had gone to Afghanistan/Pakistan for training and consultation).

We shouldn't be ruling out, even conditionally, people based on nationality. One can be a Jihadist (or whatever other cause) and be from anywhere - even the USA.

EDIT for typos

Edited April 19, 2013 by SteeleJoe

[Scott]

Off-topic posts deleted. Please stay on topic.

[SteeleJoe]

Perhaps you have forgotten, but the majority of American have not forgotten that on the day after the 9/11/2001 attacks, a number of bin Laden family members were escorted to a private airfield in Texas and ushered out of the country. All while the rest of the country was under lock down with zero flights moving.

Try again. (Check your sources first.)

[khwaibah]

Look home grown to me..Just released photos by the FBI. MSN

[SteeleJoe]

Look home grown to me..Just released photos by the FBI. MSN

What do Amercians look like?

[keemapoot]

Look home grown to me..Just released photos by the FBI. MSN

What do Amercians look like?

I think the delicate point is that ethnic, racial and nationality profiling is indeed used, and rightly so, along with many other factors, of course. Profiling is a highly controversial topic obviously, but to ignore its use or indeed usefulness, among all other factors would be unrealistic.

[SteeleJoe]

Look home grown to me..Just released photos by the FBI. MSN

What do Amercians look like?

I think the delicate point is that ethnic, racial and nationality profiling is indeed used, and rightly so, along with many other factors, of course. Profiling is a highly controversial topic obviously, but to ignore its use or indeed usefulness, among all other factors would be unrealistic.

I don't think anyone, least of all me, is so naive or ignorant as to not recognize that.

However, considerations of ethnicity, race, or nationality can arguably make sense in screening processes by ICE et al (eg prevention of the wrong people ever getting in the country or on a flight etc) but it would be in many respects foolish to do it in the investigatory process. In the latter, you go where the evidence takes you, rather than give more focus to one thing over another without sufficient cause to do so.

EDIT TO ADD: Not discounting that genuine profiling - which is nowhere near as simple as just looking at what nationalities have acted in the US before, or which etnic groups have had terrorists among them, or what race is most likely to have done something like this - is of course used as an investigative tool. But genuine profiles - of the sort pioneered by the BSU at Quantico - are based on available evidence in a case.

Edited April 19, 2013 by SteeleJoe

[keemapoot]

Look home grown to me..Just released photos by the FBI. MSN

What do Amercians look like?

I think the delicate point is that ethnic, racial and nationality profiling is indeed used, and rightly so, along with many other factors, of course. Profiling is a highly controversial topic obviously, but to ignore its use or indeed usefulness, among all other factors would be unrealistic.

I don't think anyone, least of all me, is so naive or ignorant as to not recognize that.

However, considerations of ethnicity, race, or nationality can arguably make sense in screening processes by ICE et al (eg prevention of the wrong people ever getting in the country or on a flight etc) but it would be in many respects foolish to do it in the investigatory process. In the latter, you go where the evidence takes you, rather than give more focus to one thing over another without sufficient cause to do so.

One of my favorite movies, the 1973 Day of the Jackal, (Assassin plot to kill DeGaulle) showed the flaws of nationality profiling, as they spent a lot of time looking for the perp because they assumed he was British. It turned out that nobody really knew what nationality that guy was in the end. I've never been in investigative law enforcement, so I couldn't say what they might do now, but would love to hear from some FBI types with real experience.

[SteeleJoe]

One of my favorite movies, the 1973 Day of the Jackal, (Assassin plot to kill DeGaulle) showed the flaws of nationality profiling, as they spent a lot of time looking for the perp because they assumed he was British. It turned out that nobody really knew what nationality that guy was in the end. I've never been in investigative law enforcement, so I couldn't say what they might do now, but would love to hear from some FBI types with real experience.

Great movie. Great book (Forsyth wrote - as he generally did - with so much accuracy in terms of tactics, and political historical context).

As you may recall, one of the most notorious and successful terrorists of modern history was South American: they called Ilich Ramírez Sánchez (aka Carlos) "the Jackal" because a copy of that novel was found with his belongings.

While it's true that his actions had nothing to do with Islamism, he did act on behalf of Middle Eastern terrorists (among others). What if he had been considered somehow not a credible suspect because he was from Venezuela?

Edited April 19, 2013 by SteeleJoe

[Mosha]

Perhaps you have forgotten, but the majority of American have not forgotten that on the day after the 9/11/2001 attacks, a number of bin Laden family members were escorted to a private airfield in Texas and ushered out of the country. All while the rest of the country was under lock down with zero flights moving.

Try again. (Check your sources first.)

Farenheit 9/11 Although it was after the no flights was lifted.

Edited April 19, 2013 by Mosha

[SteeleJoe]

Perhaps you have forgotten, but the majority of American have not forgotten that on the day after the 9/11/2001 attacks, a number of bin Laden family members were escorted to a private airfield in Texas and ushered out of the country. All while the rest of the country was under lock down with zero flights moving.

Try again. (Check your sources first.)

Farenheit 9/11

My point exactly. What a terrible source. However the movie doesn't even say that.

"Narration: It turns out that the White House approved planes to pick up the bin Ladens and numerous other Saudis. At least six private jets and nearly two dozen commercial planes carried the Saudis and the Bin ladens out of the U.S. after September 13th. In all, 142 Saudis, including 24 members of the bin Laden family, were allowed to leave the country."

1) That's not the day after. 2) The flight ban ended on September 13th. 3) After the 13th? More than a little lacking in specificity, no?

Try some actual honest research by journalists and investigators rather than propaganda merchants like Moore. (Not trying to get off topic here but don't even imagine for a second that I'm a defender of Bush or his adminstration - I was against it long before 9/11- let alone how they dealt with the response to that day).

Or try the 9/11 Commission report. I can C&P the relevant text if you like...

EDIT to Add: Sorry for redundancy re timing but you changed your post after I had written mine.

Edited April 19, 2013 by SteeleJoe

[webfact]

UPDATE

Surveillance Video Related to Boston Bombings

Suspects (FBI posters)

http://www.fbi.gov/news/updates-on-investigation-into-multiple-explosions-in-boston/seeking-information-posters

-- FBI 2013-04-19

http://www.fbi.gov/news/updates-on-investigation-into-multiple-explosions-in-boston/updates-on-investigation-into-multiple-explosions-in-boston

[jamhar]

While reading these comments is enormously entertaining

I'm glad, its TV and not the FBI thats giving me the entertainment.

I'm curious, to be sure.

and i check a few times a day for updates

But I'm more reassured when i DONT hear updates.

that means the boys/gals are busy with credible leads and are working

when i hear updates, that more often that not, means they hit blocks and could use the public's help

like today the release of the photo's means they could not identify the suspects from the photos alone

and needs the public help for more images or for the identification of the images.

but US justice system in these high profile cases is like the tide.

regardless of what you do, its coming.

a day, a month, a year, 10 years, its coming.

[jamhar]

Sorry for the double post folks.

I was reminded of an MIT study a while back.

They hid 10 red balloons around the US (the entire fricken country) and asked anyone to find them all. The winner would get a cash reward. (Sponsored by DARPA)

How long did the winner take? Just under 9 hours!

That's the power of social media when used correctly.

http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2011/red-balloons-study-102811.html

My point?

Reddit has already identified the hat on one of the suspects head.

http://www.businessinsider.com/redditors-id-the-hat-of-one-of-the-boston-bombing-suspects-2013-4

[transam]

UPDATE

Surveillance Video Related to Boston Bombings

Suspects (FBI posters)

-- FBI 2013-04-19

Great work by the Feds. Won't be long before they are taken down, just hope they didn't have a flight out somewhere as they knew they would be on camera.

Edited April 19, 2013 by Scott

[SteeleJoe]

UPDATE

Surveillance Video Related to Boston Bombings

Suspects (FBI posters)

-- FBI 2013-04-19

Great work by the Feds. Won't be long before they are taken down, just hope they didn't have a flight out somewhere as they knew they would be on camera.

Identification and apprehension are quite different matters. I'd be willing to bet they will probably catch those guys, but "won't be long"? I'm less sure.

Think Ramzi Yousef (WTC) or Mir Kazi (Langley). The feds knew who they were but it took years (and some international work) to get them.

Or that tall guy SEAL Team 6 drilled in Abbottobad (what was his name again?)....took a while to get him.

Edited April 19, 2013 by SteeleJoe

[Pakboong]

The photos of Craft personnel are about as covert as a platoon of naked dwarfs. No way they are part of an operation but they could be a part of the cover.

Edited April 19, 2013 by Pakboong

[NeverSure]

Boston Bombing Victim in Iconic Photo Helped Identify Attackers

By Asjylyn Loder & Esmé E. Deprez -
Apr 18, 2013 6:45 PM PT

Minutes before the bombs blew up in Boston, Jeff Bauman looked into the eyes of the man who tried to kill him.

Just before 3 p.m. on April 15, Bauman was waiting among the crowd for his girlfriend to cross the finish line at the Boston Marathon. A man wearing a cap, sunglasses and a black jacket over a hooded sweatshirt looked at Jeff, 27, and dropped a bag at his feet, his brother, Chris Bauman, said in an interview.

Two and a half minutes later, the bag exploded, tearing Jeff’s legs apart. A picture of him in a wheelchair, bloodied and ashen, was broadcast around the world as he was rushed to Boston Medical Center. He lost both legs below the knee.

He woke up under so much drugs, asked for a paper and pen and wrote, ‘bag, saw the guy, looked right at me,’” Chris Bauman said yesterday in an interview.

Those words may help crack the mystery of who perpetrated one of the highest-profile acts of terror in the U.S. since the 2001 assault on New York City and the Washington area, one that killed three people and wounded scores.

While still in intensive care, Jeff Bauman gave the FBI a description of the man he saw, his brother said. Bauman’s information helped investigators narrow down whom to look for in hours of video of the attack, he said."

More

[keemapoot]

The photos of Craft personnel are about as covert as a platoon of naked dwarfs. No way they are part of an operation but they could be a part of the cover.

There does appear to be a stream of persons walking with a purpose in that video. Not sure whether others are cover or just incidental, but I'm sure they are looking to find everyone walking together in that video as a person of interest.

[SteeleJoe]

Boston Bombing Victim in Iconic Photo Helped Identify Attackers

By Asjylyn Loder & Esmé E. Deprez -

Apr 18, 2013 6:45 PM PT

Minutes before the bombs blew up in Boston, Jeff Bauman looked into the eyes of the man who tried to kill him.

Just before 3 p.m. on April 15, Bauman was waiting among the crowd for his girlfriend to cross the finish line at the Boston Marathon. A man wearing a cap, sunglasses and a black jacket over a hooded sweatshirt looked at Jeff, 27, and dropped a bag at his feet, his brother, Chris Bauman, said in an interview.

Two and a half minutes later, the bag exploded, tearing Jeffâs legs apart. A picture of him in a wheelchair, bloodied and ashen, was broadcast around the world as he was rushed to Boston Medical Center. He lost both legs below the knee.

He woke up under so much drugs, asked for a paper and pen and wrote, âbag, saw the guy, looked right at me,ââ Chris Bauman said yesterday in an interview.

Those words may help crack the mystery of who perpetrated one of the highest-profile acts of terror in the U.S. since the 2001 assault on New York City and the Washington area, one that killed three people and wounded scores.

While still in intensive care, Jeff Bauman gave the FBI a description of the man he saw, his brother said. Baumanâs information helped investigators narrow down whom to look for in hours of video of the attack, he said."

More

Like I said some time back in response to the dubious assertion in a post that the FBI stated they had no evidence at all: witness testimony is evidence (as are bomb debris and CCTV) - and here we can see that it's coming together even in these very early days...

Edited April 19, 2013 by SteeleJoe

[chuckd]

Going down now on CNN.

One policeman shot and killed at MIT,

One suspect under arrest in Watertown, MA.

A second suspect being looked for.

explosives involved and feared.

Edit in: Second suspect apprehended. There is no news on whether this is associated to the marathon bombing or not at this time.

Edited April 19, 2013 by chuckd

[chuckd]

Update: Remember I am watching CNN as that is all I have. May or may not be true.

Second suspect NOT apprehended.

Policeman shot and killed at MIT, followed by carjacking at MIT.

Two suspects confronted in Watertown, some three miles from MIT. One arrested, one escaped.

Large Federal authority presence in Watertown with first suspect in hands of FBI.

Nobody claims any known connection to Marathon bombing.

[Mosha]

Watertown, explosions heard, from BBC News.

[SteeleJoe]

A better picture of White Cap Guy...

Note the seeming difference between his body language and facial expression from those around him...

[Steely Dan]

If two suspects are wanted bang goes the loan wolf scenario. One person acting alone can be insane, two or more acting together, much more likely a shared ideology. We could be looking at a new group, in theory, but best to use the FBI list of known terrorist organizations I would have thought.

[Jingthing]

Big news:

http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2013/04/18/mit-police-officer-hit-gunfire-cambridge-police-dispatcher-says/4UeCClOVeLr8PHLvDa99zK/story.html

True or not, I don't know.

WATERTOWN — One suspect in Monday’s Boston Marathon bombings has been
captured, according to an official with knowledge of the investigation.
Another remains on the loose in Watertown after a firefight with police.
Authorities have established a 20-block perimeter as they search for
him.

Edited April 19, 2013 by Jingthing

[keemapoot]

A better picture of White Cap Guy... ImageUploadedByThaivisa Connect Thailand1366353358.584366.jpg Note the seeming difference between his body language and facial expression from those around him... ImageUploadedByThaivisa Connect Thailand1366353375.946906.jpg

As noted on the news, this picture is of him leaving the scene, and tellingly, he no longer has his backpack.

[TheWalkingMan]

Live radio from Boston...

http://betaplayer.radio.com/player/wbz-newsradio-1030

Or google WBZ News Radio 1030

[SteeleJoe]

If two suspects are wanted bang goes the loan wolf scenario. One person acting alone can be insane, two or more acting together, much more likely a shared ideology. We could be looking at a new group, in theory, but best to use the FBI list of known terrorist organizations I would have thought.

Again this idea that we should narrow thing down to preconceived ideas based on what has happened previously ; in response I will again say that its best to follow the evidence - not "best to use the FBI list of known terrorist organizations".

Fortunately the pros know that. Even during the not long ago period when we had powerful forces manipulating and coercing intelligence assets to reach specific conclusions, they knew that it was about trying to match evidence to perpetrators, not match perpetrators to evidence.

[Chopperboy]

The Boston Marathon bombing is easily the most crowdsourced terror investigation in American history, with the FBI soliciting videos, cellphone photos and anything that could lead to the capture of whoever set off those pressure cooker bombs.

http://imgur.com/a/sUrnA

Edited April 19, 2013 by Chopperboy