Report On Loi Kroh Rd.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

bristolgeoff, on 20 Apr 2013 - 06:16, said:

pattaya is nice for a few days then you got too get out,people in chiang mai like it here better,maybe a bit quiter.so if chiang mai is not your town you should return to pats and enjoy all the fun at the sea.with all those bars and ladies waiting for you.

I used to spend only 1-3 days max in Pattaya, as I really couldn't handle anything longer. Last month though I spent mostly in Pattaya with the family and it was a lot more 'normal' even than I hoped/expected it to be, so a lot more normal than I previously thought possible. It's not like you're surrounded by bars and hookers all the time. (Unless someone would want to) Pattaya is a big city these days and there's more going on than tourism. And within tourism, there's more going on than bars; there are a lot of attractions for kids actually; mine really enjoyed it.

(They now tell everyone how much they love a Pattaya holiday, and I just know that some (Farang) people they're saying it to have a very one-dimensional view of Pattaya no matter if they even visited the place or not.. makes me wonder what they think.. Just from forum reactions it seems a lot of people in Thailand have a very dim view of Pattaya which isn't always rooted in fact.)

[Ulysses G.]

I really enjoy Pattaya. It is much cheaper than other beach destinations in Thailand that have a lot to do. There are hookers if you want them, but they are easy to ignore if you don't (as long as you stay out of the bars). A little kid would not even notice. They would just think that there were a lot of friendly girls hanging around.

[orang37]

snip ... C M will never have as many expat/ tourist barflies as Pattaya ... snip ...

This is a reality one can only pray will continue, and give thanks for.

~o:37;

[WinnieTheKhwai]

I really enjoy Pattaya. It is much cheaper than other beach destinations in Thailand that have a lot to do. There are hookers if you want them, but they are easy to ignore if you don't (as long as you stay out of the bars). A little kid would not even notice. They would just think that there were a lot of friendly girls hanging around.

They'd see friendly staff girls in the shopping malls, yes. I don't drive past bar areas, not for the kids but because their mother doesn't know just how many bars there really are, and dad would like to keep it that way. People keep telling her that there are many bars so one night I relented and said "Ok, let's go see if we can find some". Then we discovered Soi 8, which of course is a mere shadow of its former self, but still has enough bars to make our mission a success. We did drive through Soi Bua Khao on the way back, but all of that looked unappealing. (also genuinely to me, actually)

[elektrified]

You found the boxing ring area too, right? (I assume so as it's right next to Star 6)

And then Chiang Mai also has nightlife that Pattaya doesn't have too much of, which makes for a nice addition to the usual beer bars.

Of course, overall it doesn't come close to the incredible number of bars in Pattaya.

Overall I like both places.

Yes, I passed by the boxing rink area. They need to do something to make it more appealing for the casual passerby though. I found the entrance rather offputting, which is why I didn't go in.

IMO C M will never have as many expat/ tourist barflies as Pattaya till it sorts out the infrastructure, traffic, and provides something other than temples to occupy the retired. Sorry, but C M is pretty boring.

Better looking women though- northern girls really have it!

Did these girls tell you they're Northern Thai girls? Don't believe it! 95% of the Loi Khro lovelies are not Northern Thai, but there's nothing wrong with that. Most are from Isan (Northeastern Thai), another group are from Ayuthaya and Sukhothai, and a smaller group are hill people ("khon doi"), usually Akha or Lisu from Chiang Rai Province.

Mathematically you would have to, um, "interview" twenty Loi Kroh women to arrive at 95%, and many times that number to have any confidence in the measure. You must have been busy!

I don't know about the figure of 95% but otherwise he is quite accurate. Isaan would be the highest percentage ----> than 50% of them. There is one bar in particular closer to the moat end and I think another down the road where all of the girls are from Sukothai. I haven't come across the ones from Ayutthaya, however. There are literally dozens of Lisu. Akha? Not sure about that. There is one bar where all the girls are from Tak.

[elektrified]

Maybe Chiangmai just doesn't want to copy Pattaya! Heaven forbid!

They would in a second, if the customers/money were there! Many would complain of course, but many complain in Pattaya too.

People complaining about Pattaya nightlife are stupid. Without the nightlife, Pattaya would be nothing except another dirty, boring, broken Thai town with a very average beach. Certainly wouldn't attract many. Doesn't even have any temples worth looking at ( other than Temple of Truth ).

I would have to agree with the OP on the topic. My one evening walking around Pattaya confirmed what the OP wrote. It's just a larger version of Loi Kroh road, but situated close to a beach. The only thing missing in Chiang Mai is the stripper bars behind closed doors. If that is your thing then go for it. I only have to look in a mirror to know what a naked female body looks like. If it's not your scene then why worry about what other people enjoy? There's far more to do in Thailand than sit on a bar stool every evening. I don't see anything wrong with a bunch of people enjoying themselves. When I wander through the few bars along Loi Kroh all I see are people laughing and enjoying themselves. I guess that is essentially what people are complaining about. THEY DON'T WANT PEOPLE TO ENJOY THEMSELVES! The happy people here are out numbered by the grinches.

What a load of rubbish in every respect.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

I would have to agree with the OP on the topic. My one evening walking around Pattaya confirmed what the OP wrote. It's just a larger version of Loi Kroh road, but situated close to a beach. The only thing missing in Chiang Mai is the stripper bars behind closed doors. If that is your thing then go for it. I only have to look in a mirror to know what a naked female body looks like. If it's not your scene then why worry about what other people enjoy? There's far more to do in Thailand than sit on a bar stool every evening. I don't see anything wrong with a bunch of people enjoying themselves. When I wander through the few bars along Loi Kroh all I see are people laughing and enjoying themselves. I guess that is essentially what people are complaining about. THEY DON'T WANT PEOPLE TO ENJOY THEMSELVES! The happy people here are out numbered by the grinches.

What a load of rubbish in every respect.

Specifically..? Or really in every respect? As in:

It is not a larger version of Loi Kroh Road?

It is not near a beach?

She can't undress in front of a mirror to figure out what a naked lady looks like? (Though I admit that photographic evidence of this would be much appreciated)

There actually isn't more to do in Thailand other than sit on a bar stool every evening?

There is something wrong with people enjoying themselves?

The grinches outnumber the happy people? (That last one might actually be the case, if it relates to the forum. )

So I'm guessing that it isn't actually all rubbish, just perhaps the statement that the grinches are hating on Loy Kroh because they don't want other people to enjoy themselves.. (They're not hating because of that, they're hating because they're at a stage in life where they consider everyone who's not exactly like them to be wrong, and have all the time in the world to rant about it.)

[philw]

Anybody remember the Karen Hut ???

[jackr]

IMO C M will never have as many expat/ tourist barflies as Pattaya till it sorts out the infrastructure, traffic, and provides something other than temples to occupy the retired. Sorry, but C M is pretty boring.

Better looking women though- northern girls really have it!

Well, thank **** for that! Sorry to burst your bubble, but I'm pretty sure that CM and all its inhabitants don't want it to have as many 'expat/ tourist barflies as Pattaya'. Christ, what a thought, as if a city's worth would be judged by such a thing. So, I guess you'll be staying put then? PHEW!

IMO, CM is already screwed through drawing in shed loads of undesirables over the last few years, but one thing it really does not need to be is a freaking Pattaya mark II. Imagine, chaps, hundreds of unclean, tattooed, Singh(Haa)a-shirt-wearing gimps (Brits, Yanks, Aussies, Euros, Africans, you name it, all trash in that bracket) making Thapae Gate, it's ancient bastions & surrounds look untidy every night. All we'd need then is jet-skis in the moat, parasailing on Huay Tung Tao and a pickpocket on every corner. We could even go whole hog by making the banks of the Ping really dirty and then call it the new, improved Pattaya 'North' Beach.

[tornado24]

I was in pattaya a few months ago and I walked all the seafront, south to north, next day I packed my stuff and left.

Chiang Mai is a normal city, with normal people, but many ladies here are not saints hehehe men as well

[market trader]

Yes Dolly will post on anything and everything. Yes his spelling can be abysmal. But on average I find that his posts are the ones that seem to make the most sense. He appears to post from his heart and does not give smart assed responses.

[hellodolly]

Yes Dolly will post on anything and everything. Yes his spelling can be abysmal. But on average I find that his posts are the ones that seem to make the most sense. He appears to post from his heart and does not give smart assed responses.

Thanks for the post but I do occasionally give a smart ass answer and my spelling is is not abysmal. I need the spell check to get up (yo yjat) that was supposed to be to that good of a level. I some times have to rewrite a sentence because my spell check no matter what I do can't find the proper spelling. Not that it matters I also forget to use the spell check more often than I care to admit to.

I do try to post my belief and on some posters I tend to ignore them as if I was to post what I really think of them it would not be nice.

[MassivePuffin]

Not been or a while but might have to dust off the octopus and check it out!

[Beetlejuice]

Someone will soon be comparing Loi Kroh to The Reeperbahn or De Wallen.

Geez it's just a street with some shops, restaurants and a few crummy bars with some very iffy looking females and lady boys.

Anyone who thinks Loi Kroh is sin city, obviously hasn't travelled much.

Totally agree.

This subject has been covered in-depth when I create a thread sometime ago.

See this link:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/463801-chiang-mai-loi-kroh-road/

[thaibeachlovers]

You found the boxing ring area too, right? (I assume so as it's right next to Star 6)

And then Chiang Mai also has nightlife that Pattaya doesn't have too much of, which makes for a nice addition to the usual beer bars.

Of course, overall it doesn't come close to the incredible number of bars in Pattaya.

Overall I like both places.

Yes, I passed by the boxing rink area. They need to do something to make it more appealing for the casual passerby though. I found the entrance rather offputting, which is why I didn't go in.

IMO C M will never have as many expat/ tourist barflies as Pattaya till it sorts out the infrastructure, traffic, and provides something other than temples to occupy the retired. Sorry, but C M is pretty boring.

Better looking women though- northern girls really have it!

Do try the boxing ring; it gets going a bit later but can be well worth it.

As for infrastructure and traffic: really!? Traffic in Pattaya is terrible.. In Chiang Mai there are three rings, two of which complete with tunnels at all the intersections and at least 6 lanes, the other one with enough space assigned to turn that 6-8 lane too. And sewers and city water supply are infrastructure too, that's another point of attention in Pattaya.

Go anywhere in the Pattaya area and you get traffic light after traffic light on Sukhumvit. And in town you get stuck at all the intersections too, specifically Third Road. With the rings, Chiang Mai has some space to grow away from the historical center. In Pattaya I see it getting a lot worse before it can get better.

No argument on Chiang Mai being boring compared to Pattaya. People tend to like it that way. (I wish they would phrase that a little more respectfully though; this hurling of massive abuse at places like Pattaya or Samui without any rationale gets a bit old.)

Have to disagree on traffic in C M. As a pedestrian ( and somewhat anti private car ), it is far easier to get around Pattaya than the moat area of C M. It's getting impossible to cross the road there as the traffic never stops, while in Pattaya it always stops as it becomes congested.

I have no interest in CM outside the city center, so they can build as many ring roads as they like- doesn't affect me.

I think it's great that there are lots of traffic lights and congested intersections in Pattaya, brings those pesky car drivers down a peg- in CM they think they are more important than pesestrians.

C M doesn't have to be boring and could have more to do than it does without changing the character of the city. I think it's just a bit sad to stay overnight and spend the evening watching tv in the room 'cause there's nothing on worth going to.

[thaibeachlovers]

You found the boxing ring area too, right? (I assume so as it's right next to Star 6)

And then Chiang Mai also has nightlife that Pattaya doesn't have too much of, which makes for a nice addition to the usual beer bars.

Of course, overall it doesn't come close to the incredible number of bars in Pattaya.

Overall I like both places.

Yes, I passed by the boxing rink area. They need to do something to make it more appealing for the casual passerby though. I found the entrance rather offputting, which is why I didn't go in.

IMO C M will never have as many expat/ tourist barflies as Pattaya till it sorts out the infrastructure, traffic, and provides something other than temples to occupy the retired. Sorry, but C M is pretty boring.

Better looking women though- northern girls really have it!

Did these girls tell you they're Northern Thai girls? Don't believe it! 95% of the Loi Khro lovelies are not Northern Thai, but there's nothing wrong with that. Most are from Isan (Northeastern Thai), another group are from Ayuthaya and Sukhothai, and a smaller group are hill people ("khon doi"), usually Akha or Lisu from Chiang Rai Province.

Where did that come from? My comment was about C M girls in general, not the ones on Loi Kroh. In fact, I couldn't really see what the Loi Kroh bargirls looked like as the bars were pretty dark.

Just to make it clear, C M girls are the best looking in Thailand. Those hiso burds in the Airport Mall are just drop dead gorgeous.

[thaibeachlovers]

You found the boxing ring area too, right? (I assume so as it's right next to Star 6)

And then Chiang Mai also has nightlife that Pattaya doesn't have too much of, which makes for a nice addition to the usual beer bars.

Of course, overall it doesn't come close to the incredible number of bars in Pattaya.

Overall I like both places.

Yes, I passed by the boxing rink area. They need to do something to make it more appealing for the casual passerby though. I found the entrance rather offputting, which is why I didn't go in.

IMO C M will never have as many expat/ tourist barflies as Pattaya till it sorts out the infrastructure, traffic, and provides something other than temples to occupy the retired. Sorry, but C M is pretty boring.

Better looking women though- northern girls really have it!

Have you considered the thought that that is why many of us like it here.

Is that all life is to you looking for expat/barflies places to go? Must be a very shallow existence.

Shallow or not, millions of people like the barfly life. People even pay lots of money and pollute the skies just to come to LOS and sit in bars- funny that.

[thaibeachlovers]

I do not know why so many want to change Chiang Mai, surely if you are not happy you are free to leave, it is not perfect but we as tourist, ex pats or whatever have no real chance of changing Chiang Mai as much as we want to try.

If you want Pattaya style bars then stay there, many of the girls have been awat for Songkran and all should get back to normal over the weekend so some of the girls in the sports centre were saying

Sadly, I no longer live in Pattaya, and C M is the closest big town to where I live ( I don't live in C M either ).

[thaibeachlovers]

Why didn't you just go to one of the bars on the side Soi's

Or go to 7/11 and purchase a case and take it home with you.

Your reply makes no sense. I was posting a report on the road- what were you replying to?

You

First off there is very little monoxide fumes on Loi Kroh proper so I suggested a side soi

Or if the monoxide fumes are to much for you on them just go to a 7/11 and buy alcohol take it home and drink it in your monoxide fumes free residence.

I have seen the walking street in Pattaya and it is in no way close to what Loi Kroh is.

Pattaya is a big city and I would not be a bit surprised if there wasn't areas similar to Loi Kroh. But definatly not the walking street there.

Perhaps my post was obscure, but it wasn't about my drinking habits, and I do know about 7/11.

Of course Loi Kroh is nothing like Walking St. My point, if you care to read it again, is that it COULD be like Walking Street.

I SPECIFICALLY stated that Loi Kroh is similar if not IDENTICAL to areas of Pattaya.

[hml367]

Yes Dolly will post on anything and everything. Yes his spelling can be abysmal. But on average I find that his posts are the ones that seem to make the most sense. He appears to post from his heart and does not give smart assed responses.

Less than 2 years as a member and 8,814 posts - that supports your first sentence.... Not sure I agree that his posts make the most sense. Try disagreeing with something he posts.

MSPain

[dthisb]

Yes Dolly will post on anything and everything. Yes his spelling can be abysmal. But on average I find that his posts are the ones that seem to make the most sense. He appears to post from his heart and does not give smart assed responses.

Less than 2 years as a member and 8,814 posts - that supports your first sentence.... Not sure I agree that his posts make the most sense. Try disagreeing with something he posts.

MSPain

My perception on HelloDolly:

He means well but:

-> about 50% of time he has no clue and just a speculative or useless response

-> about 25% of time (like this thread) simply does not make any sense or attacking someone who has a different lifestyle

-> other 25% useful

My feedback for HelloDolly is to: (well, I guess to everyone - but since hellodolly responds to nearly 100% of threads...)

- not respond to every single thread for sake of it only - only respond if you have something truly useful/positive to say

- only respond if he has something positive to say (just because someone has a different lifestyle than you does not mean they need a scolding...)

- respect other people's different lifestyles

- realize you are not the 'fully thai' integrated person you think you are and don't disrespect people for same reason (yes you have disrespected people for this but you have shown you don't have clue in many cases)

To be honest I am very impressed at the number of people who simply ignore his comments instead of creating issues... yes better to ignore someone than create an issue... although quite a few people have given hellodolly this kind of feedback so I think I should finally do same as it is tiring to simply be the better person and just observe this..

[WinnieTheKhwai]

You found the boxing ring area too, right? (I assume so as it's right next to Star 6)

And then Chiang Mai also has nightlife that Pattaya doesn't have too much of, which makes for a nice addition to the usual beer bars.

Of course, overall it doesn't come close to the incredible number of bars in Pattaya.

Overall I like both places.

Yes, I passed by the boxing rink area. They need to do something to make it more appealing for the casual passerby though. I found the entrance rather offputting, which is why I didn't go in.

IMO C M will never have as many expat/ tourist barflies as Pattaya till it sorts out the infrastructure, traffic, and provides something other than temples to occupy the retired. Sorry, but C M is pretty boring.

Better looking women though- northern girls really have it!

Do try the boxing ring; it gets going a bit later but can be well worth it.

As for infrastructure and traffic: really!? Traffic in Pattaya is terrible.. In Chiang Mai there are three rings, two of which complete with tunnels at all the intersections and at least 6 lanes, the other one with enough space assigned to turn that 6-8 lane too. And sewers and city water supply are infrastructure too, that's another point of attention in Pattaya.

Go anywhere in the Pattaya area and you get traffic light after traffic light on Sukhumvit. And in town you get stuck at all the intersections too, specifically Third Road. With the rings, Chiang Mai has some space to grow away from the historical center. In Pattaya I see it getting a lot worse before it can get better.

No argument on Chiang Mai being boring compared to Pattaya. People tend to like it that way. (I wish they would phrase that a little more respectfully though; this hurling of massive abuse at places like Pattaya or Samui without any rationale gets a bit old.)

Have to disagree on traffic in C M. As a pedestrian ( and somewhat anti private car ), it is far easier to get around Pattaya than the moat area of C M. It's getting impossible to cross the road there as the traffic never stops, while in Pattaya it always stops as it becomes congested.

I have no interest in CM outside the city center, so they can build as many ring roads as they like- doesn't affect me.

I think it's great that there are lots of traffic lights and congested intersections in Pattaya, brings those pesky car drivers down a peg- in CM they think they are more important than pesestrians.

C M doesn't have to be boring and could have more to do than it does without changing the character of the city. I think it's just a bit sad to stay overnight and spend the evening watching tv in the room 'cause there's nothing on worth going to.

Ah I see. That does make sense then, from a pedestrian perspective. I do think though that both places (or actually just about any city in Thailand) could be SO much better for pedestrians. For Chiang Mai I think it's fairly reasonable for walking in the old town area within the moat. And Nimmanhaemin likely, as the same sort of gridlock traffic conditions occur there.

[AnotherOneAmerican]

I really enjoy Pattaya. It is much cheaper than other beach destinations in Thailand that have a lot to do. There are hookers if you want them, but they are easy to ignore if you don't (as long as you stay out of the bars). A little kid would not even notice. They would just think that there were a lot of friendly girls hanging around.

I think a 'little kid' would notice the lack of underwear, from his low vantage point, then ask you potentially embarrassing questions.

[rene123]

What a load of rubbish in every respect.

I would have to agree with the OP on the topic. My one evening walking around Pattaya confirmed what the OP wrote. It's just a larger version of Loi Kroh road, but situated close to a beach. The only thing missing in Chiang Mai is the stripper bars behind closed doors. If that is your thing then go for it. I only have to look in a mirror to know what a naked female body looks like. If it's not your scene then why worry about what other people enjoy? There's far more to do in Thailand than sit on a bar stool every evening. I don't see anything wrong with a bunch of people enjoying themselves. When I wander through the few bars along Loi Kroh all I see are people laughing and enjoying themselves. I guess that is essentially what people are complaining about. THEY DON'T WANT PEOPLE TO ENJOY THEMSELVES! The happy people here are out numbered by the grinches.

So let me get this correct. Electrified says everything I said is rubbish.

Thererore...

1. Loi Kroh road "is" located near a beach? I haven't seen one.

2. Loi Kroh road has a larger bar scene than Pattaya? I guess Google Earth is incorrect in their measurements

3. Loi Kroh road does have nude strip bars behind closed doors? That is strange, I've never heard them mentioned. About as risque as Chiang Mai gets is the 2 or 3 pole dance bars where bored, semi-attractive women sleep walk through their moves... but the bar patrons don't mind. I've only been in each of those places once and found nothing appealing.

4. People should worry about what others enjoy? Maybe I'm wrong then.

5. People aren't laughing and enjoying themselves on Loi Kroh? If that were the case then the area would go quickly out of business with no customers. The times I walked by there did seem to be a lot of laughter, but maybe electified prefers calling me a liar.

6. Happy people are outnumbered by the grinches on thaivisa? Electrified proved my point himself. If need be I can search through a few hundred other topics to prove my point.

[MMan]

" Better looking women though- northern girls really have it! "

Actually I think many of the girls (and ladyboys) working the farang beer bar scene in CM are not from the area. You won't find many light skinned Thai-Chinese girls in Loi Kroh bars (the karaoke joints in other areas that cater to Asian businessmen though do seem to have lots of them out front ... though I'm not so familiar with those places - went in one once and left after 30 minutes with a shockingly high bar bill - which I paid though I ignored all the staff with their hands out asking for tips as I was leaving).

[Thakkar]

The OP is correct that if the main Loi Kroh bar area were cordoned off from traffic, it would be a nicer place to hang out. As to it being anything like Pattaya bar areas, one has to squint really hard to get that effect, but after a few drinks, it's easier.

Mostly, I like things the way they are. Chiangmai is great for living most of the year, especially the winter months. Pattaya has its charms, both as a family destination and as a destination for a man on the prowl. There's no reason to turn either one into the other.

T

[hellodolly]

Yes Dolly will post on anything and everything. Yes his spelling can be abysmal. But on average I find that his posts are the ones that seem to make the most sense. He appears to post from his heart and does not give smart assed responses.

Less than 2 years as a member and 8,814 posts - that supports your first sentence.... Not sure I agree that his posts make the most sense. Try disagreeing with something he posts.

MSPain

My perception on HelloDolly:

He means well but:

-> about 50% of time he has no clue and just a speculative or useless response

-> about 25% of time (like this thread) simply does not make any sense or attacking someone who has a different lifestyle

-> other 25% useful

My feedback for HelloDolly is to: (well, I guess to everyone - but since hellodolly responds to nearly 100% of threads...)

- not respond to every single thread for sake of it only - only respond if you have something truly useful/positive to say

- only respond if he has something positive to say (just because someone has a different lifestyle than you does not mean they need a scolding...)

- respect other people's different lifestyles

- realize you are not the 'fully thai' integrated person you think you are and don't disrespect people for same reason (yes you have disrespected people for this but you have shown you don't have clue in many cases)

To be honest I am very impressed at the number of people who simply ignore his comments instead of creating issues... yes better to ignore someone than create an issue... although quite a few people have given hellodolly this kind of feedback so I think I should finally do same as it is tiring to simply be the better person and just observe this..

I didn't realize I had this big a fan following. Thanks fellows.

I do recognize some of the posters and notice any thing that some one posts as negative towards me they tend to like it.

I still stand behind my original post to the OP I later put it in simpler terms for those of you who had a different idea. Post 22 or 23 As to making into a Pattaya not a chance even the original poster said he would not go down to the Thai boxing ring and it is not a road.

Some times my response is just a I Like this. I doubt very seriously I even open half of them.

I suppose if you went to my profile and only opened up the ones I have posted on it would be 100%. Do you think I should start a blog and save you all that time seeking them out as it is obvious to me you read every one of them.

[wholetthedogout]

If you want a good night then check out the 100s of bars in santitham chang puek. nice people the most.

[heybruce]

If you want a good night then check out the 100s of bars in santitham chang puek. nice people the most.

It's been a while, but the last time I checked there were very few English speakers there, and if you're in the second half of life you will feel quite old in Santitham..

[Mapguy]

Well, hello, "heybruce!" Sorry to hear you might only getting by with a cane, but you are certainly bang on that people should always be aware of how old they are when bar hopping, be it droopy boobs or big bellies regardless of gender. Language can be quite incidental.

Have you been to places in that neighborhood like the ones where the bargirls after work go to get their jollies and hire "short time" guys after having spent the evening unsatisfied humping one or more over-age, overweight, Viagra-stimulated farang has-beens ?! There is a lot of variety in that neighborhood. If you have the figure for it, maybe language is not an obstacle!