Should We Learn The Language?

[SteeleJoe]

Thought it was called Mandarin for the masses. Many other dialects called Chinese, not one.

There are obviously many dialects and indeed they are commonly - though perhaps not precisely - called "Chinese" as a group. But Standard Chinese is a specific standardized language also known as Putonghua, Guoyu, or Mandarin.

But "Mandarin" is not a Chinese word. It is also, I believe commonly used to refer to a particular set of dialects and not always standard Chinese so to me it is potentially misleading to call Standard Chinese "Mandarin".

EDIT: I want to make clear I am no expert on Chinese language(s) but I have some knowledge of the country's history and most of what I know about the language derives from that.

Edited April 23, 2013 by SteeleJoe

[transam]

so you speak some Chinese Blether? hats off! that's an extraordinary achievement because Chinese is a language that does not exist.

It definitely exists. And not just as a written language. Also known as "Standard Chinese" or "Modern Standard Chinese" it is the official language of...wait for it...China!

Thought it was called Mandarin for the masses. Many other dialects called Chinese, not one.

There are obviously many dialects and indeed they are commonly - though perhaps not precisely - called "Chinese" as a group. But Standard Chinese is a specific standardized language also known as Putonghua, Guoyu, or Mandarin.

But "Mandarin" is not a Chinese word. It is also, I believe commonly used to refer to a particular set of dialects and not always standard Chinese so to me it is potentially misleading to call Standard Chinese "Mandarin".

Hmmmmmmmmm, there are quotes up there under my name that don't belong to me.

[SteeleJoe]

Hmmmmmmmmm, there are quotes up there under my name that don't belong to me.

Hmmmmmmmmm...that's not my fault. Check with the mods, they are aware of this problem and have posted about it.

I went to the trouble of manually cleaning it up - is it right, now?

[metisdead]

A post with an overly derogatory comment toward Thai has been removed.

[transam]

Hmmmmmmmmm, there are quotes up there under my name that don't belong to me.

Hmmmmmmmmm...that's not my fault. Check with the mods, they are aware of this problem and have posted about it.

I went to the trouble of manually cleaning it up - is it right, now?

No, but folk now understand.

[SteeleJoe]

It's NOT right? So you didn't say, "Thought it was called Mandarin for the masses. Many other dialects called Chinese, not one."

Because that's what it says on my screen (and I'd like to know if this thing is even more messed up than I thought possible).

[onionluke]

The Thai numerical sounds , 1 to 10 are similar to Cantonese . In fact the Cantonese numbers sound closer to the Thai numbers than they do to the Putonghua numbers .

[transam]

It's NOT right? So you didn't say, "Thought it was called Mandarin for the masses. Many other dialects called Chinese, not one." Because that's what it says on my screen (and I'd like to know if this thing is even more messed up than I thought possible).

Post 152 is the same. Not cleaned up, I did NOT refer to blether. . Don't worry.

[StreetCowboy]

Thought it was called Mandarin for the masses. Many other dialects called Chinese, not one.

There are obviously many dialects and indeed they are commonly - though perhaps not precisely - called "Chinese" as a group. But Standard Chinese is a specific standardized language also known as Putonghua, Guoyu, or Mandarin.

But "Mandarin" is not a Chinese word. It is also, I believe commonly used to refer to a particular set of dialects and not always standard Chinese so to me it is potentially misleading to call Standard Chinese "Mandarin".

EDIT: I want to make clear I am no expert on Chinese language(s) but I have some knowledge of the country's history and most of what I know about the language derives from that.

I think "Mandarin" is derived from the Cantonese for Big Nob. Most British Anglicisation (?) of Chinese is.

I wouldn't recommend learning Cantonese unless you are planning on doing a lot of whinging, and shouting in restaurants.

SC

[Naam]

Au contraire. Chinese does exist: It is a written language. There are many dialects which is why movies made and shown in China still have captions in Chinese writing at the bottom of the TV screen.

there are not only many dialects but many actual and completely different languages spoken in China which cannot be expressed/written with what is commonly called "Chinese characters". the latter can't be called a language and neither can icons depicting "toilet, wheelchair access, danger, deer crossing, etc." be called a language.

[SteeleJoe]

Thought it was called Mandarin for the masses. Many other dialects called Chinese, not one.

There are obviously many dialects and indeed they are commonly - though perhaps not precisely - called "Chinese" as a group. But Standard Chinese is a specific standardized language also known as Putonghua, Guoyu, or Mandarin.

But "Mandarin" is not a Chinese word. It is also, I believe commonly used to refer to a particular set of dialects and not always standard Chinese so to me it is potentially misleading to call Standard Chinese "Mandarin".

EDIT: I want to make clear I am no expert on Chinese language(s) but I have some knowledge of the country's history and most of what I know about the language derives from that.

I think "Mandarin" is derived from the Cantonese for Big Nob. Most British Anglicisation (?) of Chinese is.

I wouldn't recommend learning Cantonese unless you are planning on doing a lot of whinging, and shouting in restaurants.

SC

Heh.

Actually if anyone cares it's from Portuguese and Sanskrit (I think) and some other languages that I can't recall and it was originally - as many will be aware - the word for a certain type Chinese official.

[onionluke]

Thought it was called Mandarin for the masses. Many other dialects called Chinese, not one.

There are obviously many dialects and indeed they are commonly - though perhaps not precisely - called "Chinese" as a group. But Standard Chinese is a specific standardized language also known as Putonghua, Guoyu, or Mandarin.

But "Mandarin" is not a Chinese word. It is also, I believe commonly used to refer to a particular set of dialects and not always standard Chinese so to me it is potentially misleading to call Standard Chinese "Mandarin".

EDIT: I want to make clear I am no expert on Chinese language(s) but I have some knowledge of the country's history and most of what I know about the language derives from that.

I think "Mandarin" is derived from the Cantonese for Big Nob. Most British Anglicisation (?) of Chinese is.

I wouldn't recommend learning Cantonese unless you are planning on doing a lot of whinging, and shouting in restaurants.

SC

At the top of my voice . What a release , enjoy the freedom .

OT again , but I used to spend time with a Korean girl in Hong Kong and she would sit quite happily reading a cantonese newspaper without being able to speak cantonese . The chinese characters being understood and having a similar meaning but being relative to a diffrent sound in her native language , Korean .

[ABCer]

Cannot see why I have to make an effort.

Retiree, 6 years here. Why should I?

I'm pretty good at linguistics. Easily communicate in German, Italian, Spanish, Slavic and French.

I refuse to learn Thai because of their weird alphabet. No racist connotations here. The same I can say about

Hebrew, Chinese, Japanese and Arabic. I refuse to 'absorb' their Culture. I think mine is not inferior. The same goes for food.

True, I am here... But luckily this is a free country, the people are nice and friendly, most of them understand me

and I understand them in as little interaction as we have. Those close to me speak English. In case there are

difficulties - hands, fingers, drawings or nearby volunteers help. No problems. Why should I make a great effort to learn this language?

If I did, what GREAT piece of WORLD CULTURE would I be able to read in original? Bible? Ramayana? Krishna? Bhagavad-Gita?

Or maybe I am missing a great work of literature?

Let us be honest, if I did make a huge effort and learn Thai language - I would still always be a freak - farang here. So?

[JLCrab]

OK. There are many ethnic groups within PR China particularly in Islamic regions that do not read or write any Chinese language nor speak any Chinese dialect as well as the Tibetan, Mongolian, or Korean ethnic regions.

But that's a bit like saying there are populations in Germany who only speak Turkish.

[SteeleJoe]

Cannot see why I have to make an effort.

Retiree, 6 years here. Why should I?

I'm pretty good at linguistics. Easily communicate in German, Italian, Spanish, Slavic and French.

I refuse to learn Thai because of their weird alphabet. No racist connotations here. The same I can say about

Hebrew, Chinese, Japanese and Arabic. I refuse to 'absorb' their Culture. I think mine is not inferior. The same goes for food.

True, I am here... But luckily this is a free country, the people are nice and friendly, most of them understand me

and I understand them in as little interaction as we have. Those close to me speak English. In case there are

difficulties - hands, fingers, drawings or nearby volunteers help. No problems. Why should I make a great effort to learn this language?

If I did, what GREAT piece of WORLD CULTURE would I be able to read in original? Bible? Ramayana? Krishna? Bhagavad-Gita?

Or maybe I am missing a great work of literature?

Let us be honest, if I did make a huge effort and learn Thai language - I would still always be a freak - farang here. So?

Why should you? Well, I gave my opinion earlier in the thread - and have done so elsewhere on this forum on occasion - as have others. In short it changes one's experience here a great deal - for the better and well beyond mere convenience or practicalities. But that doesn't mean you "should".

"Weird alphabet"? Are you being ironic? Are you honestly suggesting that their written language (or Hebrew, Chinese, Japanese and Arabic) are any more weird than the one we are using here? If you are joking it's kind of funny. If you are serious it's VERY funny.

Great piece of world culture (sic)? None. Is that the only reason to learn a language? Have you learned Chinese or Sanskrit or Latin or Arabic any number of languages in which you could read "great pieces of world culture in original"?

A freak? Perhaps. I haven't met you. But not every foreigner who lives here is a freak, regardless of any language skills or lack thereof.

[CaptHaddock]

The discussion was about the verb length of the word jeut, plus the tone.

Everyone in the conversation knew what was being spoken about, however due to the Thai rote learning system no one could explain it.

The Thai education system is indeed not exemplary, but that's not the reason that native speakers of Thai are generally unable to articulate the tones rules derived from spelling. Everyone learns his mother language differently from a second language. We learn the mother language by trial and error with many corrections from mothers and others. But learning a second language that way would be inefficient even if we could find a mother to correct us all day long, which we can't. So the foreigner must learn how to determine the correct tone from the spelling rules. Thais have simply memorized the tones for their entire vocabulary long since and don't have to rely on the spelling rules. Similarly, any native English speaker can generate the sentences "seeing is believing" and "seeing his cup was empty, the customer called for a refill" although very few Americans would be able to explain the difference between a gerund and a present participle.

[Neeranam]

Cannot see why I have to make an effort.

Retiree, 6 years here. Why should I?

I'm pretty good at linguistics. Easily communicate in German, Italian, Spanish, Slavic and French.

I refuse to learn Thai because of their weird alphabet. No racist connotations here. The same I can say about

Hebrew, Chinese, Japanese and Arabic. I refuse to 'absorb' their Culture. I think mine is not inferior. The same goes for food.

True, I am here... But luckily this is a free country, the people are nice and friendly, most of them understand me

and I understand them in as little interaction as we have. Those close to me speak English. In case there are

difficulties - hands, fingers, drawings or nearby volunteers help. No problems. Why should I make a great effort to learn this language?

If I did, what GREAT piece of WORLD CULTURE would I be able to read in original? Bible? Ramayana? Krishna? Bhagavad-Gita?

Or maybe I am missing a great work of literature?

Let us be honest, if I did make a huge effort and learn Thai language - I would still always be a freak - farang here. So?

Good point. If I were 65 years old I might not learn. But then again, I could still live until say 75 and I think I'd be looking for things to do, surrounded by people that speak a language I don't understand. Learning a new language would keep my brain active. I know too many old guys who have gone out to pasture in Isarn to die in their 50s!

If you are retired can't you find say 1/2 an hour a day to learn Thai? Would it be too hard to learn 1 word a day? What are you scared of - failure, making a fool of yourself? If it's not fear, it must be something else.

Edited April 23, 2013 by Neeranam

[SteeleJoe]

If I were 65 years old I might not learn. But then again, I could still live until say 75 and I think I'd be looking for things to do, surrounded by people that speak a language I don't understand. Learning a new language would keep my brain active.

I am not at all sure that if I had come here 6 years ago - at the age of 43 - whether I would have stayed but if I had, I may not have been as keen to learn as I was at 19. However, I can't imagine I wouldn't have put SOME effort into it - for the reasons you mention, intellectual curiosity, convenience and a desire to have a greater understanding of the culture - in other words an improved understanding of not only of what was being said but WHY.

[EveryDayTheSame]

Should We Learn The Language?..Of course! Also learn the English language, and don't start a sentence with: ok,so......

[transam]

Cannot see why I have to make an effort.

Retiree, 6 years here. Why should I?

I'm pretty good at linguistics. Easily communicate in German, Italian, Spanish, Slavic and French.

I refuse to learn Thai because of their weird alphabet. No racist connotations here. The same I can say about

Hebrew, Chinese, Japanese and Arabic. I refuse to 'absorb' their Culture. I think mine is not inferior. The same goes for food.

True, I am here... But luckily this is a free country, the people are nice and friendly, most of them understand me

and I understand them in as little interaction as we have. Those close to me speak English. In case there are

difficulties - hands, fingers, drawings or nearby volunteers help. No problems. Why should I make a great effort to learn this language?

If I did, what GREAT piece of WORLD CULTURE would I be able to read in original? Bible? Ramayana? Krishna? Bhagavad-Gita?

Or maybe I am missing a great work of literature?

Let us be honest, if I did make a huge effort and learn Thai language - I would still always be a freak - farang here. So?

Good point. If I were 65 years old I might not learn. But then again, I could still live until say 75 and I think I'd be looking for things to do, surrounded by people that speak a language I don't understand. Learning a new language would keep my brain active. I know too many old guys who have gone out to pasture in Isarn to die in their 50s!

If you are retired can't you find say 1/2 an hour a day to learn Thai? Would it be too hard to learn 1 word a day? What are you scared of - failure, making a fool of yourself? If it's not fear, it must be something else.

Sorry, I am in my seventh decade and go weight lifting . My head has NEVER been able to deal with another language. A fact. Sure many will be different but please don't put us older guys in a bracket.

[Morakot]

Now here we have a poll about how many languages members speak.

[Neeranam]

My retired parents who have full lives playing golf, cookery classes, history club, charity work, religious stuff, bowling, visiting friends, dinners out, opera, movies, bingo, etc. They couldn't of course do this if they couldn't speak the language.

When I retire I want a similar full life and speaking the language of the country I choose to retire in is essential. I wouldn't choose a country where I couldn't or wouldn't learn. Sounds like a nightmare.

Edited April 23, 2013 by Neeranam

[Neeranam]

Cannot see why I have to make an effort.

Retiree, 6 years here. Why should I?

I'm pretty good at linguistics. Easily communicate in German, Italian, Spanish, Slavic and French.

I refuse to learn Thai because of their weird alphabet. No racist connotations here. The same I can say about

Hebrew, Chinese, Japanese and Arabic. I refuse to 'absorb' their Culture. I think mine is not inferior. The same goes for food.

True, I am here... But luckily this is a free country, the people are nice and friendly, most of them understand me

and I understand them in as little interaction as we have. Those close to me speak English. In case there are

difficulties - hands, fingers, drawings or nearby volunteers help. No problems. Why should I make a great effort to learn this language?

If I did, what GREAT piece of WORLD CULTURE would I be able to read in original? Bible? Ramayana? Krishna? Bhagavad-Gita?

Or maybe I am missing a great work of literature?

Let us be honest, if I did make a huge effort and learn Thai language - I would still always be a freak - farang here. So?

Good point. If I were 65 years old I might not learn. But then again, I could still live until say 75 and I think I'd be looking for things to do, surrounded by people that speak a language I don't understand. Learning a new language would keep my brain active. I know too many old guys who have gone out to pasture in Isarn to die in their 50s!

If you are retired can't you find say 1/2 an hour a day to learn Thai? Would it be too hard to learn 1 word a day? What are you scared of - failure, making a fool of yourself? If it's not fear, it must be something else.

Sorry, I am in my seventh decade and go weight lifting . My head has NEVER been able to deal with another language. A fact. Sure many will be different but please don't put us older guys in a bracket.

Why so cryptic, you could be 61 and in your seventh decade - not that old. Can't say I've ever seen a pensioner at any of the gyms I've belonged to doing weights but walking/running on the treadmill, sure. I say well done.

[SteeleJoe]

My retired parents who have full lives playing golf, cookery classes, history club, charity work, religious stuff, bowling, visiting friends, dinners out, opera, movies, bingo, etc. They couldn't of course do this if they couldn't speak the language.When I retire I want a similar full life and speaking the language of the country I choose to retire in is essential. I wouldn't choose a country where I couldn't or wouldn't learn. Sounds like a nightmare.

My mother and stepfather (75 and 84) live full lives as well, and about 7 months a year in their home in Mexico where they are surrounded by fellow Gringos and Mexicanos who can speak English - yet they take Spanish classes a few times a week.

However, I want to emphasize as I have said more than once on this forum (and elsewhere), it's none of my business if someone doesn't want to learn a language or feels they can't. I just have never heard a sensible reason not to, beyond, "I can't be bothered" or "I can't do it". The guys who make excuses - invariably ones that require them to claim or imply that Thai is beneath them or of no use or even somehow detrimental to one's experience - are frankly full of s*^t.

[SteeleJoe]

Cannot see why I have to make an effort. Retiree, 6 years here. Can't say I've ever seen a pensioner at any of the gyms I've belonged to doing weights but walking/running on the treadmill, sure. I say well done.

My dad is 80. Been going to the gym 5 days a week rain, snow or shine for 50 years. Still does some weight training. Surely he's not the only one in the world!

But Transam, is not my father (I don't think).

[transam]

Cannot see why I have to make an effort.

Retiree, 6 years here. Why should I?

I'm pretty good at linguistics. Easily communicate in German, Italian, Spanish, Slavic and French.

I refuse to learn Thai because of their weird alphabet. No racist connotations here. The same I can say about

Hebrew, Chinese, Japanese and Arabic. I refuse to 'absorb' their Culture. I think mine is not inferior. The same goes for food.

True, I am here... But luckily this is a free country, the people are nice and friendly, most of them understand me

and I understand them in as little interaction as we have. Those close to me speak English. In case there are

difficulties - hands, fingers, drawings or nearby volunteers help. No problems. Why should I make a great effort to learn this language?

If I did, what GREAT piece of WORLD CULTURE would I be able to read in original? Bible? Ramayana? Krishna? Bhagavad-Gita?

Or maybe I am missing a great work of literature?

Let us be honest, if I did make a huge effort and learn Thai language - I would still always be a freak - farang here. So?

Good point. If I were 65 years old I might not learn. But then again, I could still live until say 75 and I think I'd be looking for things to do, surrounded by people that speak a language I don't understand. Learning a new language would keep my brain active. I know too many old guys who have gone out to pasture in Isarn to die in their 50s!

If you are retired can't you find say 1/2 an hour a day to learn Thai? Would it be too hard to learn 1 word a day? What are you scared of - failure, making a fool of yourself? If it's not fear, it must be something else.

Sorry, I am in my seventh decade and go weight lifting . My head has NEVER been able to deal with another language. A fact. Sure many will be different but please don't put us older guys in a bracket.

Why so cryptic, you could be 61 and in your seventh decade - not that old. Can't say I've ever seen a pensioner at any of the gyms I've belonged to doing weights but walking/running on the treadmill, sure. I say well done.

I lift weights. Don't need a treadmill as the street costs nothing. Open your eyes to folk who can do what they can do. I cannot learn another language, my head cannot deal with it but you come to the gym and see how we fair together.

[AnotherOneAmerican]

My retired parents who have full lives playing golf, cookery classes, history club, charity work, religious stuff, bowling, visiting friends, dinners out, opera, movies, bingo, etc. They couldn't of course do this if they couldn't speak the language.

When I retire I want a similar full life and speaking the language of the country I choose to retire in is essential. I wouldn't choose a country where I couldn't or wouldn't learn. Sounds like a nightmare.

Italian Opera.

Many of the traditional operas were sung in Neapolitan, so most Italians (and everyone else) can't understand the language, but they still attend.

[SteeleJoe]

Italian Opera.

Many of the traditional operas were sung in Neapolitan, so most Italians (and everyone else) can't understand the language, but they still attend.

I assume you are joking and not comparing watching or listening to an opera for a couple hours - and passively enjoying the way it sounds plus knowing the story from copious amounts of available summaries etc - to living much of one's daily life surrounded by people speaking a language you don't understand and with whom your interaction would very often be to one degree or another limited.

It would be a ridiculous analogy if you were serious.

Edited April 23, 2013 by SteeleJoe

[Eesat]

Italian Opera.

Many of the traditional operas were sung in Neapolitan, so most Italians (and everyone else) can't understand the language, but they still attend.

I assume you are joking and not comparing watching or listening to an opera for a couple hours - and passively enjoying the way it sounds plus knowing the story from copious amounts of available summaries etc - to living much of one's daily life surrounded by people speaking a language you don't understand and with whom your interaction would very often be to one degree or another limited.

It would be a ridiculous analogy if you were serious.

There are plenty of Brits living in Spain for example,who don't speak a word of Spanish!

[Baerboxer]

I think to get a non-imm visa one should be made pass a test, like all civilized countries.

Which country has such a test for a non-imm visa?

Don't know off-hand but would have thought most of them.

I don't know any that do. However, many countries, including Thailand do have language ability requirements for residency or citizenship statuts. But not for non-imm visas.