Liverpool F.c.

[Abrak]

i wouldn't go so far as to say that thatcher was racially prejudiced against liverpudlians. culturally and societally prejudiced against northerners in general and poor people by default, yes. the evil piss-stained old witch. going to be one hell of a street party in liverpool when she finally pushes up the daisies.

Ooooo.... politics in football.....

All I can say is, a, a, a, stop startin'

Yeah politics and football dont mix anymore. When Liverpool were very good Bill Shankly used to talk about football as a socialist eutopia - tickets 1 quid, players earning 100 quid a week - everyone working together to create a common good. Yesterday Everton fans were protesting with demands that they wanted shareholders that were richer than existing shareholders. That is so uncool. The idea of the 'revolution' is that you shoot the bastards for the money they have stolen from you in the first place not that you worship them on the basis that they may sprinkle a little of their ill-gotten gains in your direction as a pr exercise.

And while Maggie will go to her death with a grin on her face that the moral evil she has sewed into society has proved so infectious, Shankly is turning in his grave and not only at the performance of Liverpool on the pitch.

[alfieconn]

Fancy you to do us a favour and beat the Chavs today.

[StevieH]

Fancy you to do us a favour and beat the Chavs today.

depends how we set up. they've been playing a ridiculously high defence which arsenal took good advantage of. if we can play a tight midfield five and look to get suarez, bellamy and kuyt in behind them we could get some joy yeah.

[Abrak]

By the way, a rather shabby article in the Independent along the lines that Dalglish is no better than Hodgson. While Lawton is entitled to his opinion, it is based on incredibly dodgy statistics.

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/news-and-comment/james-lawton-dalglishs-streetsmart-attitude-cant-disguise-liverpool-shabbiness-6264482.html

Hodgson averaged 1.25 points over 20 Premier League games, Dalglish is running at 1.80 in 29. In all competitions, Hodgson won 13, drew 9, lost 9 with a winning percentage of 0.42. Dalglish emerges only a little to the good with figures of managed 37, won 19, drew 9, lost 9 and a percentage at 0.51.

Both statistics are indeed correct. However they dont prove quite what Lawton would like them to prove. If a team averaged 1.25 points over 38 games in the league (aka Hodgson) you would have made 47.5 points during the season and ended up 10th (2 points less and you would have been 15th). If you had averaged 1.80 points over 38 games (aka Dalglish) you would have had 68.4 points and have come 4th.

As to the winning percentages over all matches while Dalglish's record is not THAT much better than Hodgson, Hodgson's record includes 9 wins from Europa games while Liverpool arent even in the Europa this year. So if you include Europa qualifying and early Europa league results then Hodgson's record is bound to look good because you are not comparing like with like.

As things stand it is probably best to compare Hodgson and Dalglish's league records (although I would expect Dalglish's to be better given the net investment.) Actually Dalglish can lose the next 11 games consecutively (meaning that Liverpool score zero points from the next 11 games) and his PPG (points per game) in the league (or league record) will still be better than Hodgson.

[StevieH]

lawton's a lush old idiot. i don't know what hodgson has on various football journalists but they seem incredibly anxious to kiss his arse.

paul tomkins' response to that load of nonsensical bilge.

http://tomkinstimes.com/2011/11/media-muppet-of-the-month-2/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+TheTomkinsTimes+%28The+Tomkins+Times%29

It’s funny how some of the more lauded older generation of football writers can be so wrong about modern Liverpool FC. Sometimes it takes supporting a club, and following its fortunes closely, to know what you’re talking about. Dipping in and out when it suits tells you little, no matter how much you dress up your conclusions in fancy prose.

The amount of articles that James Lawton of the Independent has written laying the boot into Rafa Benítez (who fans, he says, were wrong to admire) and praising Roy Hodgson (who was ‘mugged’ by said fans) has just increased by one, from an already large number. Now, Dalglish joins Benítez as a man to whose failings were are blind, just as we were blind to the greatness of Hodgson.

Look at this garbage (I won’t link to the article, on principle):

“Unfortunately, the unsayable is beginning to be said because for all the signings, all the old excitement of a club on the move, the now unavoidable truth is that the records of Kenny Dalglish and Roy Hodgson are not exactly separated by a chasm that might readily explain the joy with which one was received and the contempt that went into the dispatching of the other.”

Okay, a bold statement. The evidence?

“Hodgson averaged 1.25 points over 20 Premier League games, Dalglish is running at 1.80 in 29. In all competitions, Hodgson won 13, drew 9, lost 9 with a winning percentage of 0.42. Dalglish emerges only a little to the good with figures of managed 37, won 19, drew 9, lost 9 and a percentage at 0.51.”

Okay, the win percentage. The difference between 42% and 51% in all competitions is actually quite a chasm; the former is ‘Souness ballpark’ and the latter is the figure mustered by Evans and Houllier (independent of each other).

It’s funny, but the same people that slated Hodgson’s predecessor over his league record (which was 56% of games won), now throw fairly meaningless cup games into the mix; as if reaching the Europa League semi-final in Benítez’s final season was ever used by these same critics in his defence. Of course it wasn’t. When Benítez was in charge, it was the league, the league, and only the league as far as his snipers were concerned (given that his team made it to four European semis in six seasons). Now Hodgson winning a few games against substandard Euro opposition is grouped in with dire Premier League form, to skew the meaning.

But of course, while league records compare like with like, the cups do no such thing. Hodgson had one domestic cup tie (100% of his domestic cup ties!) at home, against one of the worst teams in all four divisions, which he lost in spectacular fashion; plus the early stages of the Europa League. Dalglish had thelatter stages of the Europa League (better opposition, if hardly the elite), and has faced only away fixtures (100%!) in the domestic cups, including trips to Old Trafford and the Britannia.

Even an imbecile can spot the difference in the challenges faced. Early stages of a competition vs later stages? Home games against rubbish teams vs away games against strong teams?

But what about the points per game? The difference between 1.25 and 1.80 is the difference between 47.5 and 68.4 over the course of a 38 game season.

Or, the difference between Champions League football and scraping out of a relegation battle by seven points.

If that isn’t a chasm, what is? As this site’s Andrew Beasley pointed out, Dalglish could lose the next TWELVE league games and still have a better points per game than Hodgson.

Yes, there were different circumstances, but again, Lawton chooses to ignore context (the kind of opposition faced) when it suits him.

Dalglish has had more money to spend, but virtually no Gerrard, and lost Torres, even though he finally started scoring again (three in five) after the prehistoric football served up by the former Fulham manager; Hodgson had Gerrard and Torres fit every game, even if his use of the latter was embarrassing.

People like Lawton will not stop until they’ve re-written history. He didn’t have to watch Liverpool every week under Hodgson, although anyone could have read or listened to the press conferences, in which bizarre excuses were trotted out, and an air of defeatism thrown over us like a chloroform blanket.

Hodgson is very good at managing small expectations; awful at dealing with any more than that. Throughout his career in major leagues, no matter whether he’s at a big club or a small one, he wins around 33% of league matches; great for a small club, terrible for a big one.

It wasn’t the Liverpool fans who mugged Hodgson; it was Hodgson and his cronies who mugged us.

[Abrak]

Funnily enough.... even Benitez was a bit unlucky to get booted out on his performance in the league (although a bit depends on whether you think he had a league winning team or a team that had lacked investment). Kenny Dalglish has been manager for 29 Premiership games and has scored 52 points and if you take the last 29 games of the other major clubs (Benitez last 29 games before sacking and Hodgsons 20 games pro-rata).

United 64

City 64

Chelsea 55 (Ancellotti/AVB)

Dalglish 52

Spurs 51

Arsenal 48

Benitez 48

Hodgson 36.25 (pro-rata 25 points from 20)

....You can see he was a bit unlucky. He had 48 points from his last 29 which is the same as Wenger (in his last 29) - who has just won 5 on the trot.

To gauge how bad Hodgson's results were if they had been pro-rata for a season (47.5) we would have had far fewer than the 54 points which is the lowest aggregate in the 38 game 3 points 18 year history for Liverpool and we would have been guaranteed to finish below 8th which the club hasnt done in 50 years.

[StevieH]

hodgson would have had us in midtable obscurity or even the threat of a relegation scrap and would have considered it about par. because he's rubbish.

i don't agree that performance in the league was really much to do with why benitez went in the end though.

[StevieH]

wow, interesting XI from us. maxi in, bellamy in, carragher left on bench. villas boas looks to have assumed carroll would play with three big lads at the back. bellamy and suarez at ivanovic and luiz could be good for us. hope to christ it's a 4-2-3-1 though and not a flat 4-4-2.

[Thaddeus]

Nothing to say about the game so far.... we are one up, so yay, but I'm watching it on Fox Soccer, two minutes into half time break and I want to puke, is all American TV like this?

[Thaddeus]

Woo

[smokie36]

Deserved the win overall. Wavered a bit in the second half but held your nerve....well done!

[carmine]

I thought Dalglish was spot on throughout , from his team selection and later on in his substitutions. He clearly realised how slow Chelsea are in certain departments. Is Terry really the best England can muster up for a center back and captain?

At this rate you might be favourites take take fourth spot over them.

[alfieconn]

I thought Dalglish was spot on throughout , from his team selection and later on in his substitutions. He clearly realised how slow Chelsea are in certain departments. Is Terry really the best England can muster up for a center back and captain?

At this rate you might be favourites take take fourth spot over them.

Yes Carms should be interesting with the arse chels and scousers fighting it out for 4th spot, to be fair it looks like 2 groups of 3 up there now

[carmine]

I thought Dalglish was spot on throughout , from his team selection and later on in his substitutions. He clearly realised how slow Chelsea are in certain departments. Is Terry really the best England can muster up for a center back and captain?

At this rate you might be favourites take take fourth spot over them.

Yes Carms should be interesting with the arse chels and scousers fighting it out for 4th spot, to be fair it looks like 2 groups of 3 up there now

Thats right alfredo and i think we'll really step up a gear when we get the likes of Thudd back from his longterm layoff. Whoops, this is the Liverpool thread.

[StevieH]

Deserved the win overall. Wavered a bit in the second half but held your nerve....well done!

yeah well happy with that. thought first half we were outstanding. we do wobble somewhat from 45 mins to 60 though on a pretty regular basis. seems to be a fitness thing which is weird.

[Devil]

Good win and keeps us in sight of fourth still. Gonna be a close battle this year.

Two players who have Had their critics Adam and Skrytel - both had excellent games, Adam covered every inch of grass and was involved for both, but his corners have been wasteful of late which used to be one of his best weapons.

Skrtel at CB and playing alongside Agger makes him look a solid player, thought he has done well past few games to be fair and looks more confident on the ball. Good to see a settled back four now for a few games in a row now.

Well done Maxi, don't know how he keeps popping up on the score sheet when given a chance - brave choice by Kenny. Thought he would of gone for Downing after two good games for England.

Suarez looked a bit leggy to me ... Bellamy made a good impression again.

I mentioned Johnson being like a new signing a few weeks back, made that goal look easy in the end.

Certainly looking like its going to be tricky to fit in Carroll in at this rate! he seems to be getting 10 mins at most and not sure how he can develop. We have looked much more dynamic with Suarez, kuyt, Bellamy up there. Good weapon to have to change a game but not sure he will feature in the starting 11 at this rate. Then there iis still Gerrard to fit into this, I would like to see him do a job behind Suarez if we go with a 5-1 formation instead of 4-2.... will be interesting to see what Kenny does here.

Meireless and Torress -

Edited November 21, 2011 by Devil

[Abrak]

Great win. We looked very good defensively and now have the equal best defensive record in the league. Skrtel has been a revelation in the last few matches and fully deserves to be keeping Carra out of the team.

Awesome save by Reina just when the match looked like getting away from us.

I thought we rode our luck a bit but we were owed at match that went a bit against the run of play.

But Chelsea what can you say? They looked a bit lost and unhappy. It wont be long before they are calling for AVB's head as ridiculous as that may sound. It is hard to see how Chelsea have had the meanest defense record in the league over the last 8 years.

And didnt the Bridge sound quiet - you could here Dalglish whistle and the Liverpool fans singing something like 'John Terry's ma loves scouse c++k'.

This time last year LFC's outfield consisted of little more than Gerrard, Carragher and Torres. Yesterday all three werent playing.

Edited November 21, 2011 by Abrak

[StevieH]

And didnt the Bridge sound quiet - you could here Dalglish whistle and the Liverpool fans singing something like 'John Terry's ma loves scouse c++k'.

has its origins in the england team hotel at the 2006 world cup.

[MrRed]

"has JT shagged your wife"

[Jimjim]

Nothing to say about the game so far.... we are one up, so yay, but I'm watching it on Fox Soccer, two minutes into half time break and I want to puke, is all American TV like this?

Could you clarify about the American TV bit? Perhaps you didn't like the match buildup and halftime team? As for the matches I don't usually watch Fox Soccer but when I have, even this season, they just used the announcers from England? So as for the match itself should be pretty much the same as you'd watch in England or when you watch matches in Thailand but with English commentary.

But generally, yes, I'm American so I'm used to American television but in general, it can often be nauseating, particularly the coverage of soccer.

As for the match, get in Johnson!

I didn't hear any songs about Terry yesterday but I heard one loud and clear from the Arsenal fans during their 5-3 victory.

[Thaddeus]

Nothing to say about the game so far.... we are one up, so yay, but I'm watching it on Fox Soccer, two minutes into half time break and I want to puke, is all American TV like this?

Could you clarify about the American TV bit?

Happy to..... it wasn't the pundits, there was precious little air time for them, it was the nauseating advertising.

[Jimjim]

Nothing to say about the game so far.... we are one up, so yay, but I'm watching it on Fox Soccer, two minutes into half time break and I want to puke, is all American TV like this?

Could you clarify about the American TV bit?

Happy to..... it wasn't the pundits, there was precious little air time for them, it was the nauseating advertising.

Oh, yes, I see. Was it during the match? I do remember them doing that before and it sucked. I thought they had learned their lesson by now and didn't do it anymore. Extremely annoying. You see, American sports broadcasters are used to frequent breaks in the action with sports like basketball, baseball and American football where they can show commercials every 10 minutes but with football they just don't get it and try to fit in ads that devalue the viewing of the match and do little more than to frustrate and annoy viewers. I remember Fox soccer showing big banners on the bottom of the screen every now and then but thought they had stopped it. I watched a couple of matches of foxsoccer.tv (only available in the US) using their free trial earlier this season and I don't remember them having any ads during the match but perhaps they still have them on their TV channel.

ESPN has now "got it" and doesn't do that anymore. I remember 5 years ago or so they made the action tiny in a corner of the screen to try to fit in a 30-second ad for beer. In one game the only goal happened during their impeccable timing.

I've seen these kind of annoying ads on Thai TV though, before, from the broadcast channels during Champions League matches, just a few years ago. Not sure if they still do it, too. And see it in Latin America as well.

But yes, ads that break up the action are stupid and annoying!

[Jimjim]

BREAKING NEWS: Torres and Meireles fined by Chelsea FC after the pair were caught attempting to board bus back to Liverpool.

[smokie36]

I thought Dalglish was spot on throughout , from his team selection and later on in his substitutions. He clearly realised how slow Chelsea are in certain departments. Is Terry really the best England can muster up for a center back and captain?

At this rate you might be favourites take take fourth spot over them.

Yes Carms should be interesting with the arse chels and scousers fighting it out for 4th spot, to be fair it looks like 2 groups of 3 up there now

Its going to be a tough battle for second place. Let's hope Berbatov stays fit!

Oops....

[alfieconn]

Deserved the win overall. Wavered a bit in the second half but held your nerve....well done!

yeah well happy with that. thought first half we were outstanding. we do wobble somewhat from 45 mins to 60 though on a pretty regular basis. seems to be a fitness thing which is weird.

Is that outstanding as in the effort you put in or the quality of football you played

[MrRed]

I thought Dalglish was spot on throughout , from his team selection and later on in his substitutions. He clearly realised how slow Chelsea are in certain departments. Is Terry really the best England can muster up for a center back and captain?

At this rate you might be favourites take take fourth spot over them.

Yes Carms should be interesting with the arse chels and scousers fighting it out for 4th spot, to be fair it looks like 2 groups of 3 up there now

Its going to be a tough battle for second place. Let's hope Berbatov stays fit!

Oops....

We will not be needing him after January

[Thaddeus]

I thought Dalglish was spot on throughout , from his team selection and later on in his substitutions. He clearly realised how slow Chelsea are in certain departments. Is Terry really the best England can muster up for a center back and captain?

At this rate you might be favourites take take fourth spot over them.

Yes Carms should be interesting with the arse chels and scousers fighting it out for 4th spot, to be fair it looks like 2 groups of 3 up there now

Its going to be a tough battle for second place. Let's hope Berbatov stays fit!

Oops....

We will not be needing him after January

Splashing out on a new water cooler then.

[carmine]

Thought i might share this one with you lot at the expense of Chelsea;

The Spurs starting eleven against Villa on monday night cost 2m less than Torres cost them.

[alfieconn]

Thought i might share this one with you lot at the expense of Chelsea;

The Spurs starting eleven against Villa on monday night cost 2m less than Torres cost them.

So that must be 27m less than the scousers paid for Carroll, Henderson and Downing

[alfieconn]

delete

Edited November 23, 2011 by alfieconn