"Here, you better give me some free food or I wont say a magic spell and bad things will happen to you".

Its criminal.

What law books have you been reading to make this assertion?

Religion and Morality by Avi Sagi and Daniel Statman. Its criminal from a moral standpoint.

That's rather funny you refer to a work in moral philosophy on the the relationship between ethics and divinity. Btw, making "magic spell" is hardly related to a meaningful theological frame that would provide any base for such a discussion.

If you think that giving alms to monks is immoral than you should definitely not do this.

Why is it rather funny?

What law books have you been reading to make this assertion?

Religion and Morality by Avi Sagi and Daniel Statman. Its criminal from a moral standpoint.

That's rather funny you refer to a work in moral philosophy on the the relationship between ethics and divinity. Btw, making "magic spell" is hardly related to a meaningful theological frame that would provide any base for such a discussion.

If you think that giving alms to monks is immoral than you should definitely not do this.

Why is it rather funny?

Because nobody uses the word "criminal" to mean against "the law" (of e.g. the Torah), especially totally out of context, hinged on an off-the-cuff remark that is supposed to look like a jurisprudence argument. I.e. "Your" book is about philosophy and theology, but the point you were making would be about philosophy and law.

I look forward to your detailed summary of Sagi and co. Better to open a new topic, because this one is about imposture .

Getting up before dawn could be a stumbling block.

Fact:: Most Thais no nothing of the true teachings of Buddhism either.

Well now that may or may not be true. But the one fact that is for sure is most foreigners know nothing about the monks life's.

They have no idea of what you can receive in a Temple from the monks. They just transfer there dislike of religion in general and put it on a personal basis based on one point in the life's of monks.

I highly doubt on one of the nay sayers here could survive one week living like a monk.

Getting up before dawn could be a stumbling block.

They only do that so they can get out and get the rich pickings off the poor deluded public. I'm up at 5:30 every day for a brisk jog round Lumpini and there are lots of people up and out at that time. Mostly the Thai Chinese I grant you as they seem to be the only people in the country who get any exercise, but there are a lot of people up before dawn who then go on to do a full day's work, raise a family etc...

Sure. I like an early rise too. Also I think my tummy would be putting in a early morning alarm if I hadn't had a morsel since noon the previous day.

Mr Phronesis

Obviously you have not been in Thailand long and to ridicule the Bhikkhu Sangha with words like "other freeloading monks"

And as the story said "they could not verify if Mr Sawaeng was a real monk". (or not)

They are freeloading. All of them. Take food off the poor so they can sit in the shade all day reading books under the pretence that the poor hardworking public will come back to the next life as a slug or a sewer rat if they don't. Its a despicable practice.

Ahh, ignorance is a bliss.

What law books have you been reading to make this assertion?

Religion and Morality by Avi Sagi and Daniel Statman. Its criminal from a moral standpoint.

That's rather funny you refer to a work in moral philosophy on the the relationship between ethics and divinity. Btw, making "magic spell" is hardly related to a meaningful theological frame that would provide any base for such a discussion.

If you think that giving alms to monks is immoral than you should definitely not do this.

Why is it rather funny?

Because nobody uses the word "criminal" to mean against "the law" (of e.g. the Torah), especially totally out of context, hinged on an off-the-cuff remark that is supposed to look like a jurisprudence argument. I.e. "Your" book is about philosophy and theology, but the point you were making would be about philosophy and law.

I look forward to your detailed summary of Sagi and co. Better to open a new topic, because this one is about imposture .

My use of the word 'criminal' is often used in a context to describe something that is wrong. It does not necessarily mean something that is criminal in the legal sense.

For example, You could say "Did you hear that tuk tuk driver with the massive amulet wanted to charge a tourist 500 baht to go 500 metres down the road?" and I would reply "Yeah, it was criminal."

Now we both know that it is not illegal to quote whatever you want as a tuk tuk driver, but to charge 500 baht would be a morally unjust thing to do. English people often use the word criminal in this context. Perhaps you didn't understand that, I'm sure you do now.

Hopefully your insistence on hanging onto the literal meaning of the word wasn't because you had no other avenues to use in this debate. Especially as you are now very much aware of the context I used the word in.

BTW be careful on the road from Chiangmai to Chiangrai.

We (kindly) gave a lift to a couple of monks.

My gf was wai-ing when they left and got out a little contribution.

I didn't say anything as it could have been nasty for me.

They then apparently told her they needed some special shelter and asked for more......500baht.....and she paid.

I didn't hear this at the time.

I was well pissed off that my gf now wife who works long hours should be ripped off like this and we later learned that fake monks are well known on this route.

If you get asked like this give him a hard slap.

BTW be careful on the road from Chiangmai to Chiangrai.

We (kindly) gave a lift to a couple of monks.

My gf was wai-ing when they left and got out a little contribution.

I didn't say anything as it could have been nasty for me.

They then apparently told her they needed some special shelter and asked for more......500baht.....and she paid.

I didn't hear this at the time.

I was well pissed off that my gf now wife who works long hours should be ripped off like this and we later learned that fake monks are well known on this route.

If you get asked like this give him a hard slap.

They're everywhere. The longer you have been here the easier some of them are to spot too. Easier just to give nothing to any of them. There are plenty of jobs that need doing if people want to eat.

BTW be careful on the road from Chiangmai to Chiangrai.

We (kindly) gave a lift to a couple of monks.

My gf was wai-ing when they left and got out a little contribution.

I didn't say anything as it could have been nasty for me.

They then apparently told her they needed some special shelter and asked for more......500baht.....and she paid.

I didn't hear this at the time.

It's a fairly widespread scam and it happens all over the country, not just on the road from Chiangmai to Chiangrai (of the several Thais I have known who have experienced this, the latest two were going from BKK to Hua Hin).

BTW be careful on the road from Chiangmai to Chiangrai.

We (kindly) gave a lift to a couple of monks.

My gf was wai-ing when they left and got out a little contribution.

I didn't say anything as it could have been nasty for me.

They then apparently told her they needed some special shelter and asked for more......500baht.....and she paid.

I didn't hear this at the time.

I was well pissed off that my gf now wife who works long hours should be ripped off like this and we later learned that fake monks are well known on this route.

If you get asked like this give him a hard slap.

Why could it have become nasty for you?

Where they Kung <deleted> monks of some sort?

Hopefully your insistence on hanging onto the literal meaning of the

word wasn't because you had no other avenues to use in this debate.

So when will we hear about how Sagi's discussion about the relationship between philosophy and theology will help us in determining whether it is morally wrong to give food to (real or fake) monks? What is your "wrongness" based on? Square one.

BTW be careful on the road from Chiangmai to Chiangrai.

We (kindly) gave a lift to a couple of monks.

My gf was wai-ing when they left and got out a little contribution.

I didn't say anything as it could have been nasty for me.

They then apparently told her they needed some special shelter and asked for more......500baht.....and she paid.

I didn't hear this at the time.

I was well pissed off that my gf now wife who works long hours should be ripped off like this and we later learned that fake monks are well known on this route.

If you get asked like this give him a hard slap.

Why could it have become nasty for you?

Where they Kung <deleted> monks of some sort?

A wife who is (arguably) too ready to give credence and respect to people wearing the right robe could be more dangerous to her husband than a graduate of Shao Lin if he were to balk at her obeisance...

Hopefully your insistence on hanging onto the literal meaning of the

word wasn't because you had no other avenues to use in this debate.

So when will we hear about how Sagi's discussion about the relationship between philosophy and theology will help us in determining whether it is morally wrong to give food to (real or fake) monks? What is your "wrongness" based on? Square one.

First of all... No one, not even yourself has asked for my opinion on how Sagi's discussion is relevant and secondly you also dismissed it as not being relevant and asked that I start up a new discussion if it is to be discussed, so based on your own lack of a formal request (more of an assumption in an attempt to unnerve me) and subsequent dismissal you wont be reading about it on this post. And I quote I look forward to your detailed summary of Sagi and co. Better to open a new topic, because this one is about imposture .

So you look forward to receiving something you didnt actually ask for, and I didnt offer and also suggested I then didnt share on this post, and then yet start commenting again on how you are still waiting to read it??? Umm, ok.

As for what is my 'wrongness' based on. Its based on the fact that people are misled into thinking that by giving their material possessions to these freeloaders they will get something in return, when in fact they just get to hurt their knees for 5 minutes while the freeloaders chant some mumbo jumbo that will have absolutely no positive impact on their lives at all. No good luck, no points for reincarnation, nothing.

So, other than hanging onto the literal use of the word criminal and some wishy washy talk about Sagi's thologies, do you have any other avenues to pursue?

As for what is my 'wrongness' based on. Its based on the fact that people are misled into thinking that by giving their material possessions to these freeloaders they will get something in return, when in fact they just get to hurt their knees for 5 minutes while the freeloaders chant some mumbo jumbo that will have absolutely no positive impact on their lives at all. No good luck, no points for reincarnation, nothing.

I usually don't give alms. But for most people who do, giving alms to real monks has a positive impact. They feel very positive about it and many Thai people who do this have some rudimentary understanding of Pali and know what the blessing mean.

I agree giving food to someone impersonating a monk is not good and immoral on the part of the taker.

As for what is my 'wrongness' based on. Its based on the fact that people are misled into thinking that by giving their material possessions to these freeloaders they will get something in return, when in fact they just get to hurt their knees for 5 minutes while the freeloaders chant some mumbo jumbo that will have absolutely no positive impact on their lives at all. No good luck, no points for reincarnation, nothing.

I usually don't give alms. But for most people who do, giving alms to real monks has a positive impact. They feel very positive about it and many Thai people who do this have some rudimentary understanding of Pali and know what the blessing mean.

I agree giving food to someone impersonating a monk is not good and immoral on the part of the taker.

My point is they feel good because they have been misled into thinking they will be getting something in return but this is actually a form of deception. You may think its ok to trick someone into thinking they are getting something in return and are none the wiser. I would prefer people to know the truth and then make a decision based on that, not what they have been told to believe.

As for what is my 'wrongness' based on. Its based on the fact that people are misled into thinking that by giving their material possessions to these freeloaders they will get something in return, when in fact they just get to hurt their knees for 5 minutes while the freeloaders chant some mumbo jumbo that will have absolutely no positive impact on their lives at all. No good luck, no points for reincarnation, nothing.

I usually don't give alms. But for most people who do, giving alms to real monks has a positive impact. They feel very positive about it and many Thai people who do this have some rudimentary understanding of Pali and know what the blessing mean.

I agree giving food to someone impersonating a monk is not good and immoral on the part of the taker.

My point is they feel good because they have been misled into thinking they will be getting something in return but this is actually a form of deception. You may think its ok to trick someone into thinking they are getting something in return and are none the wiser. I would prefer people to know the truth and then make a decision based on that, not what they have been told to believe.

But where is the trick? People apparently really feel better, so it worked and nobody is mislead. If they would give food and get a blessing, but don't feel better that would be trickery and misleading or deceiving.

The impersonating monk got removed because people complained, as the articles said. I guess it didn't work; it was indeed trickery in this case. It didn't do as it said on the tin.

As for what is my 'wrongness' based on. Its based on the fact that people are misled into thinking that by giving their material possessions to these freeloaders they will get something in return, when in fact they just get to hurt their knees for 5 minutes while the freeloaders chant some mumbo jumbo that will have absolutely no positive impact on their lives at all. No good luck, no points for reincarnation, nothing.

I usually don't give alms. But for most people who do, giving alms to real monks has a positive impact. They feel very positive about it and many Thai people who do this have some rudimentary understanding of Pali and know what the blessing mean.

I agree giving food to someone impersonating a monk is not good and immoral on the part of the taker.

My point is they feel good because they have been misled into thinking they will be getting something in return but this is actually a form of deception. You may think its ok to trick someone into thinking they are getting something in return and are none the wiser. I would prefer people to know the truth and then make a decision based on that, not what they have been told to believe.

But where is the trick? People apparently really feel better, so it worked and nobody is mislead. If they would give food and get a blessing, but don't feel better that would be trickery and misleading or deceiving.

The impersonating monk got removed because people complained, as the articles said. I guess it didn't work; it was indeed trickery in this case. It didn't do as it said on the tin.

Where's the trick? Are you serious? The trick is that reincarnation, merit making and all the wonderful things the poor public think they are getting in return for their generosity is all make believe. They've been sold down the river. People only feel better because they think they have gained something. But they havent, there is no luck coming their way, no merit to be had. They've been conned. And people don't usually feel better anyway, they just feel relieved they've done something to save them from a terrible fate which they shouldnt be made to feel scared of in the first place.

You seem to think its acceptable for people to be lied to, to believe in something they have been told that isnt true if it brings them some fort of deluded happiness. I dont. A lie is a lie, deception is deception and giving food and money to people who dont work for things in return that dont happen is wrong on many levels.

I'd rather give any extra food I had to a homeless person than a 250lb monk with an umbrella, fan and mobile phone any day of the week.

They've been sold down the river. People only feel better because they

think they have gained something. But they havent, there is no luck

coming their way, no merit to be had.

How do you know all this? How do you know what's to come?

You must know more than most people! I hope your foresight is genuine. You know there are many religious imposters in Thailand who claim all sorts of stuff about the future.

I am getting a little suspicious.

They've been sold down the river. People only feel better because they

think they have gained something. But they havent, there is no luck

coming their way, no merit to be had.

How do you know all this? How do you know what's to come?

You must know more than most people! I hope your foresight is genuine. You know there are many religious imposters in Thailand who claim all sorts of stuff about the future.

I am getting a little suspicious.

Ok, you've got me. You're right. I'm sure that if I gave a bald man who doesn't work a bowl of rice and some dead cow and he sings a little song over my head in return I'll not only come back to the world again after I die, I'll be the next Wimbledon tennis champion.

They've been sold down the river. People only feel better because they

think they have gained something. But they havent, there is no luck

coming their way, no merit to be had.

How do you know all this? How do you know what's to come?

You must know more than most people! I hope your foresight is genuine. You know there are many religious imposters in Thailand who claim all sorts of stuff about the future.

I am getting a little suspicious.

Ok, you've got me. You're right. I'm sure that if I gave a bald man who doesn't work a bowl of rice and some dead cow and he sings a little song over my head in return I'll not only come back to the world again after I die, I'll be the next Wimbledon tennis champion.

Hail! You are the Messiah! Only the true Messiah denies His divinity. I say you are Lord, and I should know. I've followed a few.

They've been sold down the river. People only feel better because they

think they have gained something. But they havent, there is no luck

coming their way, no merit to be had.

How do you know all this? How do you know what's to come?

You must know more than most people! I hope your foresight is genuine. You know there are many religious imposters in Thailand who claim all sorts of stuff about the future.

I am getting a little suspicious.

Ok, you've got me. You're right. I'm sure that if I gave a bald man who doesn't work a bowl of rice and some dead cow and he sings a little song over my head in return I'll not only come back to the world again after I die, I'll be the next Wimbledon tennis champion.

Hail! You are the Messiah! Only the true Messiah denies His divinity. I say you are Lord, and I should know. I've followed a few.

I'm not the messiah. I'm a very naughty boy.

Morakot, your beating a dead horse. Like the Buddha said, there are some people who will listen with an open mind, and there are some who have mud in the ears and can't hear a damn thing. (Well something like that). Sadhu..

BTW be careful on the road from Chiangmai to Chiangrai.

We (kindly) gave a lift to a couple of monks.

My gf was wai-ing when they left and got out a little contribution.

I didn't say anything as it could have been nasty for me.

They then apparently told her they needed some special shelter and asked for more......500baht.....and she paid.

I didn't hear this at the time.

I was well pissed off that my gf now wife who works long hours should be ripped off like this and we later learned that fake monks are well known on this route.

If you get asked like this give him a hard slap.

Why could it have become nasty for you?

Where they Kung <deleted> monks of some sort?

A wife who is (arguably) too ready to give credence and respect to people wearing the right robe could be more dangerous to her husband than a graduate of Shao Lin if he were to balk at her obeisance...

The word pussy (as in cat) springs to mind

They are only given food because people have been told they won't 'gain merit' if they don't. It's manipulation of the uneducated masses and has no place in the 21st century. As for intolerance of religion I am intolerant to all religions as they are all bullshit. As for promoting pease does Thailand appear to be a peaceful, crime free utopia to you? Daily news reports of corruption, murder, violence, rape and theft would lead one to believe otherwise. In fact the top 5 countries in the world for quality of life, rule of law have the highest number of atheist and agnostics among ther population.

And two of them have the highest number of people per capita behind bars in jails.

Which two would that be?

Well part of me says ignore you. After that sad attempt at avoiding finding out about Enlightenment.

I thought to myself a man with that much knowledge would surely know the answer to such a simple statement.

Then I thought well he really knows nothing so I better help him.

Then I thought I will make him think about it I will give him a clue.

So here it is they are both in North America.

Your welcome.

As for what is my 'wrongness' based on. Its based on the fact that people are misled into thinking that by giving their material possessions to these freeloaders they will get something in return, when in fact they just get to hurt their knees for 5 minutes while the freeloaders chant some mumbo jumbo that will have absolutely no positive impact on their lives at all. No good luck, no points for reincarnation, nothing.

I usually don't give alms. But for most people who do, giving alms to real monks has a positive impact. They feel very positive about it and many Thai people who do this have some rudimentary understanding of Pali and know what the blessing mean.

I agree giving food to someone impersonating a monk is not good and immoral on the part of the taker.

It is to bad he can not experience the joy of giving. It is truly an experience that will show in their outlook on life. Have not got a clue what will happen to the wife when she dies but I know that here and now it gives her Joy and it makes me happy to see her happy. A win win for me and I am not a Buddhist.

He obviously does not have a good outlook on life.

There is an old saying misery loves company.

"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

-- Stephen Roberts

Athiests must be the most intelligent, all knowing people in the world because they portray to 'know' there is no God. Whereas the rest of us don't say there 'is' a God but we just believe there is one.

Then of course there are just some ***holes that like to denigrate things that people believe in because they don't understand it and would rather put people down for their beliefs. Must be a hoot in their cynical and miserable world.

"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."-- Stephen RobertsAthiests must be the most intelligent, all knowing people in the world because they portray to 'know' there is no God. Whereas the rest of us don't say there 'is' a God but we just believe there is one.Then of course there are just some ***holes that like to denigrate things that people believe in because they don't understand it and would rather put people down for their beliefs. Must be a hoot in their cynical and miserable world.

I'm not sure you understand that quote at all. (Did you happen to copy that from a recent post of mine?)

By the way, what difference does it possibly make if you don't say there is a god if you believe there is one? How is that any les arrogant than those who say they know there isn't one? Especially given a total lack of evidence or logical reason to believe (at least atheists have that). Not to mention that the vast majority of believers DO say there is a god.

One more thing: look up "agnostic". You've left them out.

It is to bad he can not experience the joy of giving.

One need not be a Buddhist nor a believer in any other religion to know the joy of giving or - more important and noble - recognize that it is good and just to give...but there are many worthy causes and people which one can give to. It needn't be monks or anything related to an organized religion.

They are only given food because people have been told they won't 'gain merit' if they don't. It's manipulation of the uneducated masses and has no place in the 21st century. As for intolerance of religion I am intolerant to all religions as they are all bullshit. As for promoting pease does Thailand appear to be a peaceful, crime free utopia to you? Daily news reports of corruption, murder, violence, rape and theft would lead one to believe otherwise. In fact the top 5 countries in the world for quality of life, rule of law have the highest number of atheist and agnostics among ther population.

And two of them have the highest number of people per capita behind bars in jails.

Which two would that be?

Well part of me says ignore you. After that sad attempt at avoiding finding out about Enlightenment.

I thought to myself a man with that much knowledge would surely know the answer to such a simple statement.

Then I thought well he really knows nothing so I better help him.

Then I thought I will make him think about it I will give him a clue.

So here it is they are both in North America.

Your welcome.

A sad attempt at avoiding finding out about enlightenment? What on earth are you talking about. I havent avoided anything.

As for your two countries, well you are wrong. Well partly as Canada is actually one of the highest countries ranked for a human development index taking into account life expectancy, literacy rates, educational attainment etc. The top 5 are actually Norway, Sweden, Australia, then Canada and then the Netherlands. However, you were completely wrong about Canada having one of the highest number of people per capita behind bars as it ranks 132 in the world. So you guessed one of the countries, but were completely wrong about the point you were attempting to make.

Next time you plan on sharing some of your pearls of wisdom I suggest researching a little of your guesswork first as it is quite clear you have a habit of making stuff up and are therefore a not particularly credible source of information.

Game, set and match.

It is to bad he can not experience the joy of giving.

One need not be a Buddhist nor a believer in any other religion to know the joy of giving or - more important and noble - recognize that it is good and just to give...but there are many worthy causes and people which one can give to. It needn't be monks or anything related to an organized religion.

Exactly. In fact it is those of us that do give without needing to adhere to religious doctrines or fears that actually appreciate the true joy of giving as we do it for that reason, and that reason alone. Not for selfish reasons like gaining merit, or expecting some hocus pocus chanting to bring us good luck.

It makes me laugh that the religious seem to think they have the authority on virtue or morality when they often only do good deeds because of the doctrine they feel they have to follow for their own spiritual benefit. In my eyes the deeds then cease to be good as they are done for personal gain. Take away the self serving motivation and you take away their desire to be good and their willingness to do good deeds.

When an atheist does a good deed you know there isnt an ulterior motive.

"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

-- Stephen Roberts

Athiests must be the most intelligent, all knowing people in the world because they portray to 'know' there is no God. Whereas the rest of us don't say there 'is' a God but we just believe there is one.

Then of course there are just some ***holes that like to denigrate things that people believe in because they don't understand it and would rather put people down for their beliefs. Must be a hoot in their cynical and miserable world.

Hold on. You just said there are just some ***holes that like to denigrate things that people believe in because they don't understand it and would rather put people down for their beliefs. Must be a hoot in their cynical and miserable world.

immediately after writing Athiests must be the most intelligent, all knowing people in the world because they portray to 'know' there is no God.

Talk about cynical and miserable! umm fail!