Chinese Incursion Leaves India On Verge Of Crisis

[ExpatOilWorker]

If the balloon ever goes up, China has 3,000 km of underground tunnels that can take a nuclear impact, making the Cold War Mutual Assured Destruction (MAD) doctrine invalid.

http://m.ceip.org/2013/04/01/great-strategic-triangle/fvcf〈=en

[simple1]

^ more than a bit OTT in my opinion

Pub guy I mean

Recommended reading:

http://en.epochtimes...-8-8/31055.html

Is this article not just Falun Gong (owners of Epoch Times) anti CPC misinformation?

[Publicus]

If the balloon ever goes up, China has 3,000 km of underground tunnels that can take a nuclear impact, making the Cold War Mutual Assured Destruction (MAD) doctrine invalid.

http://m.ceip.org/2013/04/01/great-strategic-triangle/fvcf〈=en

Yes, the CCP absolutely is preparing for the big one, WW Z, and they mean to start it. However, what is the point of saving the elites of the country when it will have no population to rule and lord over? The CCP itself is mad.

^ more than a bit OTT in my opinion

Pub guy I mean

Recommended reading:

http://en.epochtimes...-8-8/31055.html

Is this article not just Falun Gong (owners of Epoch Times) anti CPC misinformation?

No.

It's startling how willing the PRChinese are to tell you their Grand Plan to lord over the world. The have to get to know you first, but are absolutely eager to let you know what they have in store for you/us. They can barely contain themselves in this regard. The PRChinese will also tell you Falun Gong originated as a part of the U.S. plot and conspiracy against the CCP and the PRChina. I'd say the Falun Gong are weird people, but I'm not Chinese so I don't really try to judge Falun Gong.

The Epoch Times is a general interest newspaper published in 17 languages in 26 free countries. The CCP hates the Epoch Times, which is censored out of the PRChina.

Is the U.S. and Falun Gong as a part of the U.S. plot and conspiracy your view too?

[doggie888888]

If you guys think China wants to invade and conquer India (and vice versa), you are mad. There are some border issues but that is the extent of the matter. No more, no less.

[Payboy]

Some border issues as in PRC want to move their border over to the other side of the Himalayas to control all the fresh water.

[hagler]

^ more than a bit OTT in my opinion

Pub guy I mean

Recommended reading:

http://en.epochtimes...-8-8/31055.html

Is this article not just Falun Gong (owners of Epoch Times) anti CPC misinformation?

There is more longwinded BS in that "publication" and in this thread than at a rodeo.

[Publicus]

^ more than a bit OTT in my opinion

Pub guy I mean

Recommended reading:

http://en.epochtimes...-8-8/31055.html

Is this article not just Falun Gong (owners of Epoch Times) anti CPC misinformation?

There is more longwinded BS in that "publication" and in this thread than at a rodeo.

You couple of guys seem to have read "that publication" regularly in order to make your comments, opinions, about it. It has superb sources inside the PRC, which upsets and aggravates the CCP, the censoring, punishing, fascist Beijing dictatorship, to no end. The Epoch Times is "PROHIBITED" in the PRC by the CCP, which sounds to me like a strong recommendation to people in the West.

Now tell us about Xinhua, the Global Times, the China Daily et al. All are mouthpieces of the completely state owned and controlled media of the CCP-PRC. Then there's the 44 channel CCTV (Central China Television) that says the same thing in 44 different ways. I guess one could say the CCP is creative.

Never been to rodeo.

[Publicus]

Some border issues as in PRC want to move their border over to the other side of the Himalayas to control all the fresh water.

This is one of the first pieces of analysis that has emerged concerning the PLA's incursion and encampment 20 miles into northern India. The PLA small unit withdrew the other day, but the Beijing and New Deli relationship remains tense, as each government got loud emotional support from its population during the fiasco.

The piece is by Dr James Holmes, who is U.S., PRChina & India analyst and professor at the U.S. Naval War College - also a former Navy task force commander. Holmes says Beijing's actions were foolish and counter productive both strategically and tactically. I think Holmes' analysis is generous and overlooks an important point.

I've heard from PRChinese friends that the incursion was a set up job against new leader Xi Jinping. Hard liners in the CCP and the PLA slipped the small PLA unit across the Line of Actual Control while Xi wasn't looking, which isn't hard to do. CCP and PLA hard liners wanted to sabotage relations between Beijing and New Delhi. Both need as many foreign devil enemies as they can present to the PRChinese sheeple.

Indeed, the Indian foreign minister had said he would cancel altogether his long scheduled May 9th visit to Beijing, which, with the PLA having been pulled out, is now cleared to go ahead. Also, Prime Minister Li Keqiang, chairman of the Chinese Council of State, is scheduled to visit India next month.

Both visits were on the verge of being called off by New Deli until the PLA slipped back across the LOAC, tails between their legs. The LOAC is a left over from the Sino-India border war of 1962 In which the PLA launched a massive surprise attack along the PRChina-India border and grabbed land from India.

So in one way or the other, Beijing continues to try its hardest to upset the status quo in NE Asia, East Asia, SE Asia and in South Asia - in short, the Indo-Pacific region. With Abhisit hollering that the U.S. is trying to contain the CCP-PRC, it's hard to see where Thailand is going in all of this. Thailand is a U.S. non-NATO treaty ally so Abhisit is definitely shooting water into the wind.

China’s Great India Folly

http://thediplomat.com/the-naval-diplomat/2013/05/07/chinas-great-india-folly/

[maidu]

There are also border disputes between India and China at the northeast parts of India, near Sikkim. China has disputes about territory and/or borders with nearly all its neighboring countries, and all over the S.China Sea. As mentioned above, Laos could be a take-over candidate in upcoming years. It's already Commie, has a relatively low population density, resource rich, and has many attractive females (marriage age and younger). China could take it with a phone call.

[folium]

There are also border disputes between India and China at the northeast parts of India, near Sikkim. China has disputes about territory and/or borders with nearly all its neighboring countries, and all over the S.China Sea. As mentioned above, Laos could be a take-over candidate in upcoming years. It's already Commie, has a relatively low population density, resource rich, and has many attractive females (marriage age and younger). China could take it with a phone call.

Given the degree of power held by ethnic Chinese-Thais in the political and particularly business spheres, the same could be said for LOS being a future bride for China (in more ways than one!)

[Publicus]

The Asean countries are identified as member states of Asean. They don't want to be dominated by anyone, not the CCP-PRC nor the U.S. They like their own identity and they have an important self-identity as peoples who balance the great powers off each other. Having a common Asean identity only strengthens this SE Asian conceit.

Beijing's original view of Asean was to incorporate the whole bloc into the direct sphere of Beijing using economics and trade. Then Beijing discovered the maritime Asean states have no intention of complying. The Philippines is a U.S. treaty ally and wants nothing to do with being incorporated into Beijing's sphere. Indonesia's GDP last year hit $1 trillion so they are doing fine on their own, thank you. Malaysia, Singapore and Brunei are absolutely not interested.

Back on mainland Asean, Thailand is a formal treaty ally of the U.S. and wants to belong to neither. Cambodia and Hun Sen are Beijing's only Asean lap dog. In all of this, Laos gains nothing from aligning with Beijing. Both Vietnam - which has a historical hate of China - and Thailand would rather insist on a U.S. troop presence along each country's border with Laos were Laos to become another lapdog of Beijing. Thailand and Vietnam probably would also ask India to contribute to a U.S. troop presence along the respective borders. Beijing never would cause such a development, i.e., U.S and/or Indian troops at its southern border - or at any point of its border.

So one of Beijing's purposes in saying the South China Sea is a PRChinese lake is to divide Asean between the mainland member states and the maritime member states. In the process, however, Beijing currently is busy digging its own grave. Worse, Beijing hasn't ever heard of the principle that when you find yourself in a hole, the first thing to do is to stop digging.

Edited May 9, 2013 by Publicus

[NeverSure]

China is a nobody. India could kick its butt right up between its shoulder blades. China doesn't have decent hardware, and it doesn't have nearly enough of it. Right or wrong, China stumbles along with its second class crap while India is one of the US's best customers for first class military hardware.

With all of China's sabre rattling, the US has been moving most of its naval forces into Asian waters. The US has enough nuclear ICBM's with multiple warheads in subs alone in Asian waters right now to take care of China. The US just renewed its pact with The Philippines to use the military bases including Clark AFB and Subic Bay, and is moving back into the former bases there. The harbor is already capable of handling the US Nimitz-class carrier groups, most of which are in Asian waters right now. Guam is completely stocked.

The US is letting China know in no uncertain terms not to mess with Japan or The Philippines or S. Korea (and as a byproduct saying the same to N. Korea) as we speak.

China is a nobody except on its own soil, or except against a small adversary.

[metisdead]

Off topic posts have been removed.

[maidu]

If they tried anything the whole world would turn on them. I don't think they have the resources to fight everyone.

I don't think so. Where was 'the whole world' when Chinese troops marched in to Tibet and took over Lhasa? Not even the Brits or Americans made a fuss at the time.

Much of the world is too eager to kiss China's butt, thinking it's a mighty economic locomotive (it's more of a hot air balloon).

It would be interesting to see a list of resources in those, and other parts of the Himalayas. It would seem there would be gold and other valuable metals - possibly even U. Of course water is valuable, as is space to build endless block buildings for people and shops.

[ExpatOilWorker]

China is a nobody. India could kick its butt right up between its shoulder blades. China doesn't have decent hardware, and it doesn't have nearly enough of it. Right or wrong, China stumbles along with its second class crap while India is one of the US's best customers for first class military hardware.

With all of China's sabre rattling, the US has been moving most of its naval forces into Asian waters. The US has enough nuclear ICBM's with multiple warheads in subs alone in Asian waters right now to take care of China. The US just renewed its pact with The Philippines to use the military bases including Clark AFB and Subic Bay, and is moving back into the former bases there. The harbor is already capable of handling the US Nimitz-class carrier groups, most of which are in Asian waters right now. Guam is completely stocked.

The US is letting China know in no uncertain terms not to mess with Japan or The Philippines or S. Korea (and as a byproduct saying the same to N. Korea) as we speak.

China is a nobody except on its own soil, or except against a small adversary.

Your chart is a bit misleading. China has the World’s second biggest military budget and it is twice as big as number 3.

China is spending nearly 4 times as much on military as India, so China is hardly a nobody when it comes to firepower.

[NeverSure]

Some countries chose to align with Russia, some with China, and some with the US. The US has treaties to defend Australia and NZ, Thailand, The Philippines, Japan, of course Guam, S. Korea and I'm not sure who else in the general Asian area. The US came running when Australia was in trouble with Japan in WWII. Now Japan is an ally.

The US will keep those treaties and China should know that. All of this bluster from China about rightfully owning parts of these different countries will go no where. That's why the US has most of its navy in the greater Asian area right now. That's part of why it flew two stealth bombers from Kentucky to S. Korea and back, dropping some practice bombs on S. Korea - just to show they could. Good Lord, how far is that, non-stop round trip at supersonic speeds and being undetected until they dropped the bombs. It was a show of force. They can carry all kinds of bombs from the newest bunker buster to nukes.

China is just now testing it's first cargo carrier plane, which with wings removed would absolutely fit into and could be carried by a US cargo carrier. They have a long ways to go. "Made in China."

[NeverSure]

China is a nobody. India could kick its butt right up between its shoulder blades. China doesn't have decent hardware, and it doesn't have nearly enough of it. Right or wrong, China stumbles along with its second class crap while India is one of the US's best customers for first class military hardware.

With all of China's sabre rattling, the US has been moving most of its naval forces into Asian waters. The US has enough nuclear ICBM's with multiple warheads in subs alone in Asian waters right now to take care of China. The US just renewed its pact with The Philippines to use the military bases including Clark AFB and Subic Bay, and is moving back into the former bases there. The harbor is already capable of handling the US Nimitz-class carrier groups, most of which are in Asian waters right now. Guam is completely stocked.

The US is letting China know in no uncertain terms not to mess with Japan or The Philippines or S. Korea (and as a byproduct saying the same to N. Korea) as we speak.

China is a nobody except on its own soil, or except against a small adversary.

Your chart is a bit misleading. China has the World’s second biggest military budget and it is twice as big as number 3.

China is spending nearly 4 times as much on military as India, so China is hardly a nobody when it comes to firepower.

My chart shows China spending 7% of the world's total and this chart show 9.5% - not a world of difference.

The US arms India. India has awesome equipment in a world where size isn't everything.

Look at the charts again. What China doesn't build for itself, it buys from (urp) Russia. Fighters that can't even see US stealth fighters, but that can be seen and shot down with precision guided missiles...

[NeverSure]

Speaking of India, let's compare Europe. Look at the military budgets there, and Australia and Japan and Canada. Look at Germany or the UK.

How do they get by with so little spending? Figure it out. Look at the massive US resources in Germany.

Look at the Arabian Sea and the Persian Gulf and you'll know why some of these countries including India don't lose much sleep.

Edited May 10, 2013 by NeverSure

[ExpatOilWorker]

China is a nobody. India could kick its butt right up between its shoulder blades. China doesn't have decent hardware, and it doesn't have nearly enough of it. Right or wrong, China stumbles along with its second class crap while India is one of the US's best customers for first class military hardware.

With all of China's sabre rattling, the US has been moving most of its naval forces into Asian waters. The US has enough nuclear ICBM's with multiple warheads in subs alone in Asian waters right now to take care of China. The US just renewed its pact with The Philippines to use the military bases including Clark AFB and Subic Bay, and is moving back into the former bases there. The harbor is already capable of handling the US Nimitz-class carrier groups, most of which are in Asian waters right now. Guam is completely stocked.

The US is letting China know in no uncertain terms not to mess with Japan or The Philippines or S. Korea (and as a byproduct saying the same to N. Korea) as we speak.

China is a nobody except on its own soil, or except against a small adversary.

Your chart is a bit misleading. China has the World’s second biggest military budget and it is twice as big as number 3.

China is spending nearly 4 times as much on military as India, so China is hardly a nobody when it comes to firepower.

My chart shows China spending 7% of the world's total and this chart show 9.5% - not a world of difference.

The US arms India. India has awesome equipment in a world where size isn't everything.

Look at the charts again. What China doesn't build for itself, it buys from (urp) Russia. Fighters that can't even see US stealth fighters, but that can be seen and shot down with precision guided missiles...

Size, as in numbers isn't everything????

The Germans seem to think different when large numbers of relative simple Russian made T34 tanks sent the mighty German Panser and its Tiger Tanks home.

[maidu]

China is building its 2nd aircraft carrier. First one will go to S.China Sea. Will the 2nd one go off the coast of India?

[geriatrickid]

China is building its 2nd aircraft carrier. First one will go to S.China Sea. Will the 2nd one go off the coast of India?

Assuming they are operational.

[NeverSure]

China has one fairly new one. We have no idea what its capabilities are, but we do know what they don't have for aircraft or precision missiles and bombs.

The US just parked one off the coast of Libya and devastated gud-daffy.

I'm truly not trying to just build up the US. But realistically, China is way behind.

Edited May 10, 2013 by NeverSure

[NeverSure]

Publicus, the Chinese plane is on the left and is a Chengdu J-10. It's their best fighter, a poor copy of the NATO F-16 and/or the Israeli IAI Lavi, first flown by China in 1998. It is sorely lacking in the technology or the firepower of even the F-15. It has Russian engines. Development began in 1986.

In the game of leapfrog, China has a goal of having what NATO now has in another 4 or 5 years, but by then NATO will have new things. Smart bombs get smarter, rockets get better, stealth gets better, etc.

[ExpatOilWorker]

China has one fairly new one. We have no idea what its capabilities are, but we do know what they don't have for aircraft or precision missiles and bombs.

The US just parked one off the coast of Libya and devastated gud-daffy.

I'm truly not trying to just build up the US. But realistically, China is way behind.

You just pointed out that China have the World's second biggest military budget, second biggest aircraft carrier and a building more. They are a huge thread to whoever will be at the receiving end of all that firepower.

[Publicus]

Sorry to disappoint some, but the rise of the CCP-PRC Navy is real. The weight of naval power still rests heavily with the United States, its boomer submarines and all. However, the U.S. knows it needs to be careful in respect to its aircraft carrier strike forces in the Western Pacific due to the PRC's new "aircraft killer" ballistic missile designed specifically to try to neutralize the U.S. Navy's 11 carrier strike forces. Beijing's great weakness however is the great weakness of all enemies of the United States, i.e., that it overestimates itself while underestimating the United States.

http://www.manilatimes.net/index.php/opinion/columnist1/25792-chinas-naval-rise

So is India's naval buildup real, much to the chagrin of the CCP-PRC. India's naval buildup In direct response to that of the CCP is super real.

India is constructing a massive naval base at the Andaman Islands and Nicobar, which are at the northern head of the vital Strait of Malacca through which almost all of China's oil shipping passes. This is in direct response to Beijing's claims that it owns almost the entire South China Sea, right down south to Brunei and Eastern Malaysia.

Malaysia consequently has in the past few years entered into new military cooperation with the U.S, our Navy especially. Singapore, while not yet a U.S. treaty ally, already has one of the strongest military relationships with the U.S. of all countries in Asia, having recently built new port facilities to receive U.S. aircraft carriers. Singapore is of course the key to accessing the Indo-Pacific sea lanes.

India's plans to develop andaman as Major Military Base - New Military Hub

India extends Malacca Strait reach

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/NH08Df01.html

The unified term the Indo-Pacific Ocean has now entered the lexicon of Naval strategists from Washington to Tokyo to New Delhi.

The Indian and Japanese navies recently conducted exercises off the Japanese coast:

.

As China Eyes Indian Ocean, Japan and India Pair Up on Defense

http://india.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/07/27/as-china-eyes-indian-ocean-japan-and-india-pair-up-on-defense/

[Publicus]

Publicus, the Chinese plane is on the left and is a Chengdu J-10. It's their best fighter, a poor copy of the NATO F-16 and/or the Israeli IAI Lavi, first flown by China in 1998. It is sorely lacking in the technology or the firepower of even the F-15. It has Russian engines. Development began in 1986.

In the game of leapfrog, China has a goal of having what NATO now has in another 4 or 5 years, but by then NATO will have new things. Smart bombs get smarter, rockets get better, stealth gets better, etc.

Thanks about the airplanes as I wasn't quite sure in that regard. So don't I feel stupid. But someone getting it right is the important thing.

Most of my effort went into trying to figure out the Chinese characters in the poster. I only figured out some of the characters, but I think enough to make a statement about them. (There's a huge difference between the CCP's dumbed-down Simplified Chinese and the Classical Chinese, the latter still used by the Taiwanese Chinese. Cantonese, which is neither, is common in Hong Kong and Singapore.)

[NeverSure]

China has one fairly new one. We have no idea what its capabilities are, but we do know what they don't have for aircraft or precision missiles and bombs.

The US just parked one off the coast of Libya and devastated gud-daffy.

I'm truly not trying to just build up the US. But realistically, China is way behind.

You just pointed out that China have the World's second biggest military budget, second biggest aircraft carrier and a building more. They are a huge thread to whoever will be at the receiving end of all that firepower.

I don't think you understand. China has one of those and no one knows how good its technology is. We do have an idea of the technology in the US carriers, not just the ships but the munitions on them including the aircraft superiority.

The US has eleven, and they travel in what's called a carrier group. In addition to what you see in the picture, there are subs on patrol. It's a massive weapon. Eleven of them.

[Publicus]

That's a fantastic presentation, thx.

It gives a clear picture of how far behind the PRC navy is in this respect. They just made their first landing on their one and only carrier.

Of course from Deng Xiaoping's time until only recently, Deng's maxim was not to bother with aircraft carrier strike groups, and his dictum was fastidiously observed by the CCP and its PLA. However, now that Beijing is making its moves throughout the Indo-Pacific region, the Boyz in Beijing are finding the idea of carriers appealing. Carriers and their strike groups do possess and project power and strength, not to mention a great deal of highly sophisticated naval expertise.

It will take the PLA Navy a decade at least to be able to amass this kind of strike group and to learn to utilize its capabilities. A captain of any warship has his hands full to command it, but commanding this force is a massive undertaking even for a rear admiral. All the personnel, from pilots to cooks have to learn respective stills and timing, and to coordinate the complex functioning of this near armada

Beijing also has interests now to service in Africa and in South America, so it needs a mobile and blue ocean navy, but that will be a long time in coming. Still, the U.S. recently reactivated its 4th Naval Fleet, its South American naval armada, precisely because Beijing is hacking down rainforests there and buddying up to leftist governments in Venezuela, Peru, Ecuador, Guatemala and the like.

CCP cadre are being assigned to Panama so Beijing can get closer to the Panama Canal. I keep running into PRChinese who are learning Latino Spanish expressly for these reasons (some of 'em screw up and learn the king's Spanish, as spoken more strictly and differently in Spain .) Beijing finances the CCP cadres to enter Latin America to set up small businesses to become a part of the communities in the various countries, Panama especially. The U.S. is well aware of this and has intelligence assets on the ground throughout the region, for when the time comes.

.

[maidu]

Reminds me of the protracted tensions between US and USSR. An article came out (in Penthouse!), in the early 1970's which disputed the (US hyped) notion that there was parity between the cold war protagonists. It claimed that all the data showing the US and USSR neck and neck with arms development was balderdash, and that the US was actually miles ahead. It wasn't until two decades later, after the fall of the Soviet empire, that the truth of the article was borne out.

I think a similar dynamic is at play here. China is seen to be fast emerging as a world military power, but (in my humble opinion), it's still far behind the curve. Of course, other countries need to assume that China is as powerful as it appears to be.

China has hordes of young folks, most employed by the PLA, whose sole job is to try and breach computers of western powers, mostly those in the US. the amount of technical data the Chinese have purloined is vast. Prime objective: to get abreast of US and Nato technical innovations. I have a personal theory: if the Chinese ever waxed responsible, and chose to pay royalties for all the tech data they've stolen over the decades, the balance of payments (with the US) would even out.

[maidu]

is it just me, or does it look like all those support ships are much too close to the carrier? I can understand (dare I say 'get behind') the two ships leading the carrier, as they would sweep for mines. With ships that close, one modest sized nuke bomb would take 'em all out - kaboomumumum.

Also, if there was just one bad boy on the carrier, with a single grenade, he could render it somewhat useless - by dropping the bomb anywhere in the steam-powered 'sling' (or whatever they call it) - which propels the planes out. One of my sources told me, in utmost confidence, that the Chinese have plans to develop a submarine carrier-like vessel.