Two Citizenships—Best Way To Change Immigration Status?

[chinthai]

My 33-year-old son has both US and Thai citizenship. He lived

in the US for 15 years and 9 months ago he entered Thailand on his US passport

with a one-year non-immigrant visa. He wants to change his status by leaving

the country and re-entering on his Thai passport

my wife had the same problems some years ago. Entry with German passport and no option to change the status with immigration.

We went to Mae Sai (Burma Boarder) - after she go to the foreigner desk for stamp out - after she go to Burma with her ID-Card and go back also with the

ID-Card as Thai.

[Pib]

re the dual passport thing ( I have NZ and Irish,no probs) My wife was renewing her thai PP here in NZ in Dec and I spoke to the thai embassy boss in person and asked if it was illegal for thais to hold 2 passports, cos I've heard so many opinions. He gave me a knowing kind of look and said "it is not illegal, but we dont encourage it"

Yeap, same in many countries...they don't encourage it, but it's legal. For example, here a link to the U.S. State Dept regarding Dual Nationality: Link. Lot of legalize in the webpage but it gets into more layman speak near the bottom under the paragraph Dual Nationality...below is a quote of that paragraph....please note the sentence were it says, "The U.S. Government does not encourage dual nationality." And in our ever shrinking globe and increasing immigration in many countries, dual nationality will just continue to increase in numbers. And at the bottom of this post is link to a Phuket Gazette Q&A where a Thai Ministry of Foreign Affairs official talks dual citizenship for Thai's.

Dual Nationality

Dual Nationality means that a person is a

citizen of two countries. A person who is a dual national owes allegiance to

both countries. Dual nationality can occur as the result of a variety of

circumstances. The automatic acquisition or retention of a foreign nationality,

acquired, for example, by birth in a foreign country or through an alien parent,

does not affect U.S. citizenship. U.S. law does not require a person to choose

one citizenship over the other. It is prudent, however, to check with

authorities of the other country to see if dual nationality is permissible under

local law. Dual nationality can also occur when a person is naturalized in a

foreign state without intending to relinquish U.S. nationality and is thereafter

found not to have lost U.S. citizenship: the individual consequently may possess

dual nationality. The U.S. Government does not encourage dual nationality. While

recognizing the existence of dual nationality and permitting Americans to have

other nationalities, the U.S. Government also recognizes the problems which it

may cause. Claims of other countries upon dual-national U.S. citizens often

place them in situations where their obligations to one country are in conflict

with the laws of the other. In addition, their dual nationality may hamper

efforts to provide U.S. diplomatic and consular protection to them when they are

abroad, especially when they are in the country of their second nationality.

And here's another quote from some U.S. State Dept document I downloaded years ago regarding dual citizenship relating to the U.S....notice how the document references U.S. Supreme Court Decision that dual citizenship is a status long recongnised in U.S. law, that the U.S. recognized dual citizenship but does not endorse it. Kinda like saying it's legal but we don't encourage it, it can cause problems, etc.

DUAL CITIZENSHIP: RECOGNIZED

Based on the U.S. Department of State regulation on dual citizenship (7 FM 1162), the Supreme

Court of the United States has stated that dual citizenship is a “status long recognized in the law”

and that “a person may have and exercise rights of nationality in two countries and be subject to

the responsibilities of both. The mere fact he asserts the rights of one citizenship does not without

more mean that he renounces the other,” (Kawakita v. U.S., 343 U.S. 717) (1952).

The Immigration and Nationality Act (INA) does not define dual citizenship or take a position for it

or against it. There has been no prohibition against dual citizenship, but some provisions of the

INA and earlier U.S. nationality laws were designed to reduce situations in which dual citizenship

exists.

United States law does not contain any provisions requiring U.S. citizens who are born with dual

citizenship or who acquire a second citizenship at an early age to choose one or the other when

they become adults (Mandeli v. Acheson, 344 U.S. 133) (1952). The current citizenship laws of the

United States do not specifically refer to dual citizenship.

While recognizing the existence of dual citizenship and permitting Americans to have other

citizenships, the U.S. Government does not endorse dual citizenship as a matter of policy because

of the problems that it may cause. Claims of other countries on dual-national U.S. citizens often

place them in situations where their obligations to one country are in conflict with the laws of the

other.

In closing, here's a Phuket Gazette Q&A cut and paste where a Thai Ministry of Foreign Affairs official talks dual citizenship for Thai's to include the 20th birthday decision point.

Edited May 8, 2013 by Pib

[mogoso]

Dual Thai and U.S. citizenship is not illegal in either Thailand or the U.S. I seems many countries try to imply they don't prefer it, but few make it illegal. My wife has dual Thai and U.S. citizenship and she is definitely over 20. When she flies to the U.S. she uses her Thai passport to exit Thailand, U.S. passport to enter and exit the U.S., and then her Thai passport to reenter Thailand. Now, when I say "uses" XYZ passport I mean she only shows the Thai passport or U.S. passport to the Thai and U.S. Immigration officials, respectively. When checking in with the airlines you can show both passports because the airlines need to ensure you have the necessary visa and/or passport to enter the country you are flying to...like when a Thai citizen flies from Thailand to the U.S.---the airlines could care less about dual citizenship....the airlines just need to ensure they don't get stuck with having to return the customer free to the originating country because the customer didn't have the proper visa/passport to enter another country.

This is exactly what my wife does. They may ask to see her other passport, but just glance at it. It is not a problem, not really an inconvience

Edited May 8, 2013 by lopburi3
fix quote

[dighambara]

"My concern is that Immigration officials at the airport in Bangkok will ask why he doesn't have a re-entry visa in his US passport since he has a roundtrip ticket. If they do, he will need to admit that he's returning on his Thai passport. Dual citizenship in Thailand is illegal after age 20. Do officials routinely ignore this contradiction?"

A few years back friend's 28 year old son, born in the USA, came to visit his parents (American Father - hai Mother). He and his Mother carefully followed all the steps and he easily became a Thai Citizen.

Now, the real question is why didn't your son enter Thailand on his Thai passport..??

[Mekong Bob]

"My concern is that Immigration officials at the airport in Bangkok will ask why he doesn't have a re-entry visa in his US passport since he has a roundtrip ticket. If they do, he will need to admit that he's returning on his Thai passport. Dual citizenship in Thailand is illegal after age 20. Do officials routinely ignore this contradiction?"

A few years back friend's 28 year old son, born in the USA, came to visit his parents (American Father - hai Mother). He and his Mother carefully followed all the steps and he easily became a Thai Citizen.

Now, the real question is why didn't your son enter Thailand on his Thai passport..??

Interested to know if this young man's USA birth certificate info had to be translated & transferred to a Thai document before he was registered on his parents' Thai household registration and before he was issued a Thai ID card and Thai passport. If so, do you recall an additional step taken by Thai authorities (District Office?) to note that he was born during years when Order 337 was in effect, but that Order has since been overturned?

[Mario2008]

If born abroad, you always have to register the birth with the Thai embassy or consulate with the help of the original birth certificate. That is logical, as otherwise the Thai government doesn't know a Thai citizen is born.

A Thai national is always registered at the amphur where he is born, in case of born abroad that is the Thai embassy for that country (or general consulate).

Normally that is all that is needed. After registering one gets a Thai birth certificate and the Thai government knows and acknowedges that the person is Thai and one can apply for a Thai passport, be eneterd on a household registraiton book etc.

[Pib]

"My concern is that Immigration officials at the airport in Bangkok will ask why he doesn't have a re-entry visa in his US passport since he has a roundtrip ticket. If they do, he will need to admit that he's returning on his Thai passport. Dual citizenship in Thailand is illegal after age 20. Do officials routinely ignore this contradiction?"

A few years back friend's 28 year old son, born in the USA, came to visit his parents (American Father - hai Mother). He and his Mother carefully followed all the steps and he easily became a Thai Citizen.

Now, the real question is why didn't your son enter Thailand on his Thai passport..??

Do immigration officials looks to see what kind of ticket you have...especially in this day of electronic tickets....you are only carrying a boarding pass to the next stopover location in some cases on the way to final destination. Plus, there is an endless number of posts on ThaiVisa where farangs/US citizens who live in Thailand on one year/long term visa/extensions of stay who go back to their home country on a visit with round trip ticket and didn't know or forget to get a re-entry permit and the extension of stay is voided...they get surprised when they only get a 30 day entry stamp upon arrival vs get stamped into their extension of stay date (which was voided due to no re-entry permit). Then they make posts asking how to recover from the situation. Immigration sure didn't query them or direct them over to the airport immigration office to get a reentry permit. Based on all the posts with quotes from key govt documents and personal experiences saying your son should have zero issues in exiting on his U.S. passport and then reentering on his Thai passport, it seems you are just letting your concern get the best of you.

[ubonjoe]

When leaving the country all that immigration is concerned with is your permit to stay date. And a check to see if you are on list of people that are not allowed to leave the country and/or have an arrest warrant pending.

It is the airlines responsibility to check that you have the proper passport and/or visa to enter the country you are traveling to. If using two passports that can mean showing both. One to show you have been in the country legally and the other for your destination country.

Edited May 9, 2013 by ubonjoe

[Mekong Bob]

Having difficulty identifying a couple of Thai laws pertaining to Thai nationality on the Royal Thai Government Gazette website:

Revolutionary Party Order 337, 1972.

Thai Nationality Act, amended, 2008.

Can you assist?

[ubonjoe]

Nationality Act B.E. 2508 (1965) with amendments until B.E. 2551 (2008) - English translation

[Mekong Bob]

Nationality Act B.E. 2508 (1965) with amendments until B.E. 2551 (2008) - English translation

The English translation is very helpful to me - thank you! I also need the (original) Thai version, as published in the Gazette, to provide to some Thai officials (District Offices, etc.). Any tips on this?

[rct99q]

A little off topic. but does anybody have triple nationality? Have Canadian and Irish and now have Thai Children. Would like to get them a Thai, Canadian and Irish Passport.

Possible? Thanks

[samran]

A little off topic. but does anybody have triple nationality? Have Canadian and Irish and now have Thai Children. Would like to get them a Thai, Canadian and Irish Passport.

Possible? Thanks

You can have as many as you are entitled to. My children have Thai, OZ and NZ citizenship. My cousins have Thai, OZ and UK passports.

[Maestro]

Nationality Act B.E. 2508 (1965) with amendments until B.E. 2551 (2008) - English translation

The English translation is very helpful to me - thank you! I also need the (original) Thai version, as published in the Gazette, to provide to some Thai officials (District Offices, etc.). Any tips on this?

http://www.krisdika.go.th/ appears to be the best website to search for the Thai text of laws.

In the pinned topic there is this:

Nationality Act – Thai text with amendments of B.E. 2535 (1992)

This does not include the amendments made with the Nationality Act (4) B.E. 2551 (2008). If you or anybody else can find the Thai text complete with the amendments made with Nationality Acts (2) and (3) and (4) I should be grateful for the link.

[Mekong Bob]

We have access to the Thai Nationality Act and to all Amendments - and we can read these in the original Thai or an English translation.

Are District Offices (District Officer, Registration Officer, etc.) provided with a Ministry-published handbook which gives specific guidance on how current Thai law is applied to such matters as Thai citizenship? If so, what is the title of this publication? Is it possible to acquire a copy, or perhaps scans of relevant sections?

IMHO, I doubt if the Department of Local Administration (DOLA) would not defer to the hundreds of District Offices to read and interpret the law as they see fit.

Anybody aware of such a manual? Thanks.

[Mario2008]

Yes, there is such manual. At least for marriages. But I don't know if it is also online on a website.

[samran]

From my experience, there is a manual on how registrations of all sorts should be done at the Ampur. I've seen the pull it out when my wife (a foreigner) had to get her yellow tabieen baan and they pulled it out when I as a 30 year old overseas born Thai citizen turned up one day and asked to be registered on the tabieen baan about 29 years and 350 days past when most other Thai's are.

[Arkady]

re the dual passport thing ( I have NZ and Irish,no probs) My wife was renewing her thai PP here in NZ in Dec and I spoke to the thai embassy boss in person and asked if it was illegal for thais to hold 2 passports, cos I've heard so many opinions. He gave me a knowing kind of look and said "it is not illegal, but we dont encourage it"

If they don't encourage it, how come the Foreign Ministry has detailed instructions on how to juggle passports for Thai dual nationals on its website. Perhaps he hasn't looked at his employer's website.

[Arkady]

I think district office staff probably have to pass some exams early in their careers that include details of these manuals. When they become more senior they often seem to rely on their dim memories of this without bothering to study any later amendments or just make up their own rules as they please. DoPA seems to have little control over them apart from its regular stream of directives and PR seminars. Of course many of them are indeed diligent and keep up-to-date, consult manuals or call DoPA HQ for advice but it is astonishing that the dinosaurs are permitted to continue to exist in an era when the old image of the feudal style "karajakarn" forcing villagers who had walked for miles to obtain some piece of bumpf to wait outside in the sun while he took a long lunch, is no longer considered a great vote catcher by central governments.

I had an argument with the head of registrations at a grimy Bangkok district office filled with sloppily dressed, grim faced staff because he tried to insist I had no right as a PR to marry without the silly piece of paper from embassy and then tried to say alien books were only allowed for Chinese aliens and that ID numbers with prefix "8" were reserved for Thai citizens. This led him and his female sidekick to conclude my documents must be forgeries. So I walked out in the middle of the idiot's sentence to avoid any further trouble. Down the road a piece in another district we found the officials all smiles and helpfulness and totally up to speed with all regulations to do with foreigners without having to consult manuals in a bright, freshly painted district office emblazoned with slogans about helping the public. The staff were all dressed in the same T-shirts and seemed to enjoy working in this friendly atmosphere. One group was showing a school study group around. It seems that the atmosphere and working style of district offices is up to the "Nai Amphur" and unfortunately the latter type of district office is far from the norm.

[Arkady]

Thanks, Samran. So, kids born to Thai mothers and non-Thai fathers, were denied Thai citizenship during the period 1975(?) thru 2007 (more than 30-year period). Their birth certificate would show mother's citizenship to be Thai, father's citizenship to be American (or some other), and the child's citizenship to be "not Thai, according to Order 337."

(In Thai: ไม่ได้สัญชาติไทย ตามคำสั่งของคณะปฏิวัติฉบับที่ 337)

The child's mother cannot register the child on her Thai Household Registration because the child is not Thai. Instead, the local District Office adds the child's name to the Homeowner's record as "an individual unlawfully residing in the Kingdom of Thailand, or as a temporary resident."

(In Thai: บุคคลที่อาศัยอยู่ในราชอาณาจักรไทยโดยไม่ชอบด้วยกฎหมายหรือในลักษณะชั่วคราว

Many Thai women during the period from 1972 to 1992 when kids born in Thailand to a foreign father and a Thai mother avoided having the father's nationality recorded on the birth certificate by not having registered their marriages in Thailand and looking the district office official in the eye and telling him they had no idea who the father was. Some were successful in obtaining Thai nationality for their kids by using the clause in the 1965 Act that said the children of Thai women born abroad were entitled Thai nationality, if they were not acknowledged by the father, which meant of course that Thai embassies might be otherwise be troubled by Thai women living in foreign countries with stateless children that the host country considered to be Thai (i.e. the reverse of what happens in Thailand). Since Revolutionary Decree 337 didn't delete this clause, it was illogical to deny the right to Thai citizenship to fatherless children born to Thai mothers in Thailand, when they would have been automatically Thai, if they were born over the border. Brits could get their foreign wives a British passport automatically at the embassy before 1982 by showing their overseas marriage certificate. So the British embassy viewed the child as the mirror image, i.e. born to a British mother overseas without father on the birth certificate and could give British nationality. A similar subterfuge was necessary for the women to buy land prior to 1999. What a hassle things were in those days!

[samran]

^^ and in my case, my Thai birth certificate wasn't even issued by the RTE in Canberra until 1992, post the law changes. A decade or two after the fact, but nonethless records both my parents and my nationality as 'Thai'.

[Mekong Bob]

We have access to the Thai Nationality Act and to all Amendments - and we can read these in the original Thai or an English translation.

Are District Offices (District Officer, Registration Officer, etc.) provided with a Ministry-published handbook which gives specific guidance on how current Thai law is applied to such matters as Thai citizenship? If so, what is the title of this publication? Is it possible to acquire a copy, or perhaps scans of relevant sections?

IMHO, I doubt if the Department of Local Administration (DOLA) would not defer to the hundreds of District Offices to read and interpret the law as they see fit.

Anybody aware of such a manual? Thanks.

The Ministry of Interior's Department of Provincial Administration has published dozens of such manuals/handbooks which provide specific guidance to the provincial district offices. These operations manuals, known as คู่มือปฏิบัติการทะเบียนราษฎร , include this one (attachment).

Registration of Persons and Nationality, published in 2011.

The DOPA publications (all in Thai, of course) can be downloaded at website http://www.dopabook.com:8085/ebook/

[samran]

please take a photo of it for me as you are sticking it in the face of various recalcitrant officals...