Phuket German Expat Loses Bt600K To Skimmers

[HarryMilton]

The kasikorn bank, who used to be the thai farmers bank and seem to change their name quite regularly, for obvious reasons, is the one bank I would have nothing to do with after they half emptied my account, completely emptied the account of a friend, both because we were not using the account often enough ! They were also the first bank to say "You farang ! Zero interest" ! I would steer clear of them like the plague and check out Bangkok Bank, Thai Military Bank, or Siam Commercial, who all seem to be reliable and fair.

What's the "obvious" reason that the bank changes it's name "quite regularly" (once?).

[HarryMilton]

I feel for the guy, but really 200,000 baht a day limit? Seriously, what could you possibly need that much in one day that couldn't wait for you to go to the bank. Also, really, you keep 600,000 in an account that is accessible by ATM?!

I've got well over a million in my ATM account. No worries as I get an SMS message when money is withdrawn.

I've actually lost my ATM card twice - left it in the machines, I think. One was in Makro - they had a drawer full of cards, but not mine. So I called the bank and stopped the card. Cost me 150 baht for a new one each time.

Since when does Makro have access to cards retained by ATMs, Mr "I've-got -well-over-a-million-in-my-atm-account"? And then keep them in a drawer?

Retained cards are recovered by that ATM's personnel and returned to that bank, where they are destroyed. You'll never get your original card back if it's retained by a machine, even if you have got well over a million in the bank.

[HarryMilton]

I had an ATM card cloned on Phuket at the end of last year. Fortunately HSBC sophisticated security picked up suspicious activity and cancelled the card so I lost nothing.

The difference here is based on the location of the home bank:

Thai-based banks basically operate from the principle that the cardholder is responsible for any fraud on losses on the card that occur prior to the cardholder notifying the bank to freeze the card (which can be kind of troublesome in that the cardholder often doesn't KNOW fraud has occurred until AFTER it's happened).

On the other hand, U.S. based banks and those in many other countries have national laws/regulations (unlike Thailand) that protect cardholders against liability for bankcard fraud, assuming there's no indication the cardholder was involved or negligent or failed to report in a timely way.

Thailand basically has no legal consumer protection laws for Thai bank card holders. Not if someone clones or steals your Thai bank card. Not if someone at the bank steals money from your account, etc etc.

Pretty much the only thing Thailand does have is a national bank deposit insurance plan that protects bank deposits, up to a certain limit per bank, in the event the bank goes bankrupt or otherwise fails.

Understood but I was more talking about the sophistication in the banks systems software that can detect suspicious activity and flag it. A case that highlights this was a reported incident on Phuket. A man used his Thai bank ATM card on Phuket and hours later a clone of the card was used somewhere in Issan to fraudulently withdraw money. Now it would be physical impossible to travel the distance in the elapsed time between withdrawals. A good system would see that and flag it as suspicious.

You can get from Phuket to Issan, Khon Kaen for example, in less than an hour. Think they're called planes.

[tropo]

Kasikorn bank response to this is unacceptable!

Banking in Thailand is a JOKE.

He should sue the bank, but he wont be able since he has only 125K baht left.

edit: I can already see it coming the "good luck suing in thailand" replies. LOL

125 BAHT left!!! NOT 125K BAHT!!! Hence the '... the thieves had drained his account to the dregs.' tag-line!! You think the thieves would not have taken another 1000K baht plus if it was there??? (personally, I always eye every ATM machine I ever use suspiciously, whether outside a bank or stand-alone.. 'looks new?.. funny little add-on plastic bit (housing a scanner/ camera?) at the top?.. check.. check.. check.. never used a machine I didn't scrutinise first!.. paranoia?.. does help sometimes! - never been skimmed!!!')...

The absolutely most important thing to check is the keypad. Even if they managed to scan your card they still need a pin.

[HarryMilton]

On December 17, he put his ATM card into a machine in Patong, and it didn’t recognise his pin. A person came up behind him and offered to help, but Mr Schmidt told him to go away. When he tried a second time, the pin code was accepted, and he was able to withdrawal his money..

Don't you think that the 'person' behind him had installed a second device to get all needed information to empty his bank account?

When he typed his pin the second time, he made sure they'd gotten his details. Why would you tell your German bank to have a 200K limit here?

Somebody else from Germany could have sent him the money on his account, without any problems to buy a car.

Or did he stay with a local woman/man, who found out that he had that amount of money? Land of WHY'S.-

"Somebody else from Germany could have sent him the money on his account". And where would that money be when it was sent? In his account! That really would have helped.

[tropo]

You can get from Phuket to Issan, Khon Kaen for example, in less than an hour. Think they're called planes.

How did you manage that? It's about 1:15 from Phuket to Bangkok.

[stevenl]

I feel for the guy, but really 200,000 baht a day limit? Seriously, what could you possibly need that much in one day that couldn't wait for you to go to the bank. Also, really, you keep 600,000 in an account that is accessible by ATM?!

I've got well over a million in my ATM account. No worries as I get an SMS message when money is withdrawn.

I've actually lost my ATM card twice - left it in the machines, I think. One was in Makro - they had a drawer full of cards, but not mine. So I called the bank and stopped the card. Cost me 150 baht for a new one each time.

Since when does Makro have access to cards retained by ATMs, Mr "I've-got -well-over-a-million-in-my-atm-account"? And then keep them in a drawer?

Retained cards are recovered by that ATM's personnel and returned to that bank, where they are destroyed. You'll never get your original card back if it's retained by a machine, even if you have got well over a million in the bank.

Hmm, I did get my card back after it was swallowed by an ATM.

[OldChinaHam]

How can people live with themselves

After they have stolen what belongs to others?

[JetsetBkk]

I feel for the guy, but really 200,000 baht a day limit? Seriously, what could you possibly need that much in one day that couldn't wait for you to go to the bank. Also, really, you keep 600,000 in an account that is accessible by ATM?!

I've got well over a million in my ATM account. No worries as I get an SMS message when money is withdrawn.

I've actually lost my ATM card twice - left it in the machines, I think. One was in Makro - they had a drawer full of cards, but not mine. So I called the bank and stopped the card. Cost me 150 baht for a new one each time.

Since when does Makro have access to cards retained by ATMs, Mr "I've-got -well-over-a-million-in-my-atm-account"? And then keep them in a drawer?

Retained cards are recovered by that ATM's personnel and returned to that bank, where they are destroyed. You'll never get your original card back if it's retained by a machine, even if you have got well over a million in the bank.

Good grief! Who yanked your chain?

I said that I left the cards in the machines. Anyone could remove them from the machine - they just sit there in the slot. Clearly some people did at Makro and handed them in. But not my one.

One of the retirement requirement options is to have 800,000 in the bank each year. So not a great leap to have over a million.

[Billy The Kid]

Great thing about SCB, Only started two or three weeks ago, everytime i log in online, i get email informing me that someone had log in my bank account, which was me. That is a good thing. Much be a awareness of ATM frauds.

[tropo]

I feel for the guy, but really 200,000 baht a day limit? Seriously, what could you possibly need that much in one day that couldn't wait for you to go to the bank. Also, really, you keep 600,000 in an account that is accessible by ATM?!

I've got well over a million in my ATM account. No worries as I get an SMS message when money is withdrawn.

I've actually lost my ATM card twice - left it in the machines, I think. One was in Makro - they had a drawer full of cards, but not mine. So I called the bank and stopped the card. Cost me 150 baht for a new one each time.

Since when does Makro have access to cards retained by ATMs, Mr "I've-got -well-over-a-million-in-my-atm-account"? And then keep them in a drawer?

Retained cards are recovered by that ATM's personnel and returned to that bank, where they are destroyed. You'll never get your original card back if it's retained by a machine, even if you have got well over a million in the bank.

Hmm, I did get my card back after it was swallowed by an ATM.

He's saying ATM "personnel" immediately destroy any card left in or eaten by ATMs?

I find that very hard to believe. Surely they would have to wait for a period of time to allow people to claim their cards back. There's always telephone numbers on machines for people to contact in case this happens.

[gemini81]

How can people live with themselves

After they have stolen what belongs to others?

Duh..thieves have been around as long as the world's oldest profession.......

[BwindiBoy]

Why would anyone have a 200k card limit per day- thats $6,600 a day.

My anz card was skimmed in KL last yr and I lost $2500. Since this experience, I always log onto to my bank account online 1 day after using any ATM to check.

That's exactly what I was thinking. If that's the "default" daily amount i'd be very surprised.

[hawker9000]

I suggest he reads this story and sees if his situation is similar:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/528145-phuket-atm-scams-even-professionals-get-caught-out/

PS. For 10 baht a month, I get an SMS message when any money is removed or added to my account.

For another 10 baht, I get an SMS message when ever my Internet banking account is logged in.

Kasikornbank sends me these SMS messages too, for free, for all deposits AND withdrawals (unless they've stopped doing it since I left in March). I say "free", but it might have something to do with the actual type of account I have there. (But I know it's not something I specifically requested.) I try and restrict use of my ATM card to ATMs located at K-bank branches only. The dual-account thing sounds like a good idea, esp. if you're keeping large amounts of money in Thailand.

[Beng]

Report will be send to Samui police.........that wii surely speed things up.

[puuchai299]

I have SMS alerts set up on my SCB acc for a small fee per month,and also with KASIKORN.

Both accounts I have had the daily maximum withdrawal reduced to 20.000 baht.With KASIKORN I had to go into the bank and the staff called the head office,I then spoke with customer advisor for security check then they set up the lower limit.

The normal daily maximum is set at 50.000,but can be changed up to a 200.000 maximum..

One thing I did notice is that whilst using the SCB ATM card in another banks ATM machine,the SMS alert does not work,not sure this was a one off or it's normal,but worth thinking about.

As we know the thai banks are not so good at reimbursing lost/stolen moneys,so the best we can do is protect ourselves with the best measures the bank has on offer and keep our daily limits low...

[quandow]

Bangkok Bank has many offices throughout the world. You can link up your home countriy's bank with them and transfer however much money you need. I can transfer up to 60k baht per day and pay about 90 baht fee per transaction. The only down side is that it takes 3 to 5 days for the transfer to be completed. The bulk of your money is still safe and protected in a country with scruples until you need it here.

[adamokeefe]

I suggest he reads this story and sees if his situation is similar:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/528145-phuket-atm-scams-even-professionals-get-caught-out/

PS. For 10 baht a month, I get an SMS message when any money is removed or added to my account.

For another 10 baht, I get an SMS message when ever my Internet banking account is logged in.

It does sound useful, but I'm genuinely wondering how much good it would do? I guess you can immediately cancel the card from further withdrawals to avoid the whole account being emptied - but what about that first withdrawal?

Is there anything SCB would do about that?

I found SCB totally useless when I had my card stolen and used fraudulently to take 20k out of my account - thankfully that's all that was in there - 2 years ago. Had a police report to prove my wallet was stolen before the transactions were made but SCB refused to cancel my card when I went into the branch the moment it opened as I couldn't give them my account number (I was on Samui and didn't take my Bangkok branch bank book on holiday) and they "couldn't find me" on the system!!

The thief even made 2 transactions at stores on Koh Samui and Koh Phangnan within 5 minutes of each other - SCB couldn't tell me how the thief managed that either. Never got any money back. UK credit cards were also stolen and used in the same way, money was instantly refunded after a phone call. The fraud department were supposed to 'work together' with Samui police....obviously that was futile.

So, just wondering if notifying them as soon as you get the SMS would help? Honest question, no hint of sarcasm (I know what people are like on here!)

My ATM card is purely an ATM card. It is not a credit or a debit card for the exact reasons you illustrate.

and if skimmed that would not make a bit of difference

Struggling to accept the coincidence of my former posts on this subject, but last week I discovered my ATM ONLY UOB card had been skimmed and the thieves had emptied my account. UOB don't have the SMS alert system by the way.

Upon putting my ATM card in the machine on Thursday last week I was greeted by a balance of 200 baht. Weird, I thought - still in shock...must be some mistake....

Called them up "yes sir, you withdrew all your money last night (Wednesday)"

Me: "No, I didn't"

Them: "Are you sure?"

Me: Yes, I'm certain. "I can even tell you the last time I made a withdrawal and exactly where at exactly what time as I keep receipts"

Them: "I see. Did you have your ATM card with you at all times?"

Me: "Yes."

Them: "And does anyone know your PIN?"

Me: "No."

Them: "Then it's impossible sir, you must have withdrawn - are you sure you didn't forget?"

Amazing! Anyway, after they checked they found out the withdrawals were made down in Songkhla - I live and work in Bangkok - so they are prepared to give me the 'benefit of the doubt' it seems, though it seemed unreasonably difficult to convince them I wasn't at fault here.

Just when you think you're doing all you can (ATM card only to reduce the risk) someone gives you a wake up call.

I have other accounts, and have applied SMS service to all of them, but still not sure how much good that would do.

Best way I can think is to have an account with no cards (as others have suggested) and getting a Thai credit card so its insured by Visa/Mastercard rather than the bank, then paying the balance off each month by going into the branch with passbook and passport.

Time consuming way to live, but it seems the lack of due diligence by Thai banks coupled with their ridiculous lack of insurance for such matters makes it necessary.

I've got my fingers crossed they will reimburse me and am currently jumping through their hoops to make the fraud claims. Next stop, police report.

Just as Candypants says, ATM only or not, no card is safe - I repeat - my card is ATM only as I thought that was safer!

One weird thing about it all is - I got a transaction report and once they'd already cleaned out my account they attempted two more withdrawals...but surely they would have seen the balance after the first withdrawal. So they might be using some system that doesn't work the same way as an ATM card, and doesn't display account information. Or they were just stupid and couldn't add up...but that fact makes such little sense...

[Totster]

I suggest he reads this story and sees if his situation is similar:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/528145-phuket-atm-scams-even-professionals-get-caught-out/

PS. For 10 baht a month, I get an SMS message when any money is removed or added to my account.

For another 10 baht, I get an SMS message when ever my Internet banking account is logged in.

Is this with Kasikorn ? How do I set this up ?

totster

[LivinginKata]

I suggest he reads this story and sees if his situation is similar:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/528145-phuket-atm-scams-even-professionals-get-caught-out/

PS. For 10 baht a month, I get an SMS message when any money is removed or added to my account.

For another 10 baht, I get an SMS message when ever my Internet banking account is logged in.

Is this with Kasikorn ? How do I set this up ?

totster

Just walk into your branch and fill in the forms - easy peasy.

[Gsxrnz]

I suggest he reads this story and sees if his situation is similar:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/528145-phuket-atm-scams-even-professionals-get-caught-out/

PS. For 10 baht a month, I get an SMS message when any money is removed or added to my account.

For another 10 baht, I get an SMS message when ever my Internet banking account is logged in.

Is this with Kasikorn ? How do I set this up ?

totster

Just walk into your branch and fill in the forms - easy peasy.

The deposit/withdrawal sms can be set up via an ATM. That's the downfall - anybody who steals or skims your card can also turn-off the sms request before nicking your money.

[JetsetBkk]

I suggest he reads this story and sees if his situation is similar:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/528145-phuket-atm-scams-even-professionals-get-caught-out/

PS. For 10 baht a month, I get an SMS message when any money is removed or added to my account.

For another 10 baht, I get an SMS message when ever my Internet banking account is logged in.

Is this with Kasikorn ? How do I set this up ?

totster

I'm with Krung Thai. They wanted to see my pass book and passport, and they did all the paperwork.

Apparently, some banks don't even charge.

[NamKangMan]

@ adamokeefe

I've posted this before, and so have many others - you have 2 accounts with the same bank.

One account does not have an ATM card attached to it, the other account does.

You set up internet banking.

The bulk of your money is in the account that does not have an ATM card. Small day to day living money is in the account that does have an ATM card.

You just keep topping up the day to day living account from the other account that has the bulk of your money, over the internet, as you need it.

This will not stop your card being skimmed, but it will stop the bulk of your money being stolen.

[JetsetBkk]

<snip>

Just as Candypants says, ATM only or not, no card is safe - I repeat - my card is ATM only as I thought that was safer!

One weird thing about it all is - I got a transaction report and once they'd already cleaned out my account they attempted two more withdrawals...but surely they would have seen the balance after the first withdrawal. So they might be using some system that doesn't work the same way as an ATM card, and doesn't display account information. Or they were just stupid and couldn't add up...but that fact makes such little sense...

"ATM only" cards are not safe from skimming. They do reduce the amount that can be withdrawn provided you have the SMS service and a low daily withdrawal amount.

[adamokeefe]

@ adamokeefe

I've posted this before, and so have many others - you have 2 accounts with the same bank.

One account does not have an ATM card attached to it, the other account does.

You set up internet banking.

The bulk of your money is in the account that does not have an ATM card. Small day to day living money is in the account that does have an ATM card.

You just keep topping up the day to day living account from the other account that has the bulk of your money, over the internet, as you need it.

This will not stop your card being skimmed, but it will stop the bulk of your money being stolen.

I already did what you're suggesting. And I read your posts and agree to a point that's its a good way.

I have more than 2 accounts actually, and use one to 'hold' money and one to 'spend'.

But your system is STILL flawed, as I found out - I don't even want to lose a 'small' amount of my money - its my money.

If you are even skimmed for 5k from an ATM/debit card you've lost that money. I didn't lose the 'bulk' of my money, but I still lost some of MY money.

Reason I say the best way I can think is to have an account without card and a Thai credit card is better than what you suggest is that the Visa/Master credit card will be insured better for fraud and more likely to pay it back without as much hassle. Or has anyone had issues with fraud from credit cards in the same way?

And to be honest, what makes you feel secure about internet banking??

Edited May 28, 2013 by adamokeefe

[NamKangMan]

@ adamokeefe

I've posted this before, and so have many others - you have 2 accounts with the same bank.

One account does not have an ATM card attached to it, the other account does.

You set up internet banking.

The bulk of your money is in the account that does not have an ATM card. Small day to day living money is in the account that does have an ATM card.

You just keep topping up the day to day living account from the other account that has the bulk of your money, over the internet, as you need it.

This will not stop your card being skimmed, but it will stop the bulk of your money being stolen.

I already did what you're suggesting. And I read your posts and agree to a point that's its a good way.

I have more than 2 accounts actually, and use one to 'hold' money and one to 'spend'.

But your system is STILL flawed, as I found out - I don't even want to lose a 'small' amount of my money - its my money.

If you are even skimmed for 5k from an ATM/debit card you've lost that money. I didn't lose the 'bulk' of my money, but I still lost some of MY money.

Reason I say the best way I can think is to have an account without card and a Thai credit card is better than what you suggest is that the Visa/Master credit card will be insured better for fraud and more likely to pay it back without as much hassle. Or has anyone had issues with fraud from credit cards in the same way?

And to be honest, what makes you feel secure about internet banking??

As I stated in my post, this method will not stop your card from being skimmed, but will minimise your loss. It's not "flawed" - it's a way to minimise your exposure to the amount that can be stolen. I never stated it was 100% safe.

Of course, the loss of even 1 baht is crime.

I do not have a Thai credit card. I have a Thai debit card. I can't post any experience on this, but I would suggest that a Thai bank would give you some grief from missing credit card money, the same way they would give you grief over missing your own money that has been skimmed. I realise you are talking about "credit" funds, but I believe you can do "cash advances" on the credit card, at an ATM, so the skimmers still caputure your data and take the money.

At the end of the day, it's very inconvenient to not have an ATM card and to resort to over the counter transactions, which in all probability, will be larger withdrawals - so, you now have the risk of armed robbery, assaulted and robbed, pickpocketed, bag snatched or your house being broken into.

Other things you can do to try to minimise the risk with ATM card use is, obviously, check out the ATM for skimming equipment. Yes, they are difficult to spot, but look carefully. Stand across the road for a few minutes and watch other people use the ATM - do you see anyone suspicious coming and going from the ATM after someone has used the machine. Use an ATM inside a shopping centre that has security guards and CCTV.

In relation to internet banking. I always internet bank in the privacy of my own home - no CCTV looking at my keyboard. I always use my own computer - never a public computer in an internet cafe. I always keep my anti-virus/spy/malware up to date. I use internet banking with conjunction with a "one time password" (OTP) sent to my mobile phone. So, even if my internet bank account is hacked, no money can be moved unless they also have my mobile phone.

At the end of the day, nothing will make you 100% safe from criminals. All you can do is try to minimise your risk to loss, and the impact from that loss if/when it occurs.

Edited May 28, 2013 by NamKangMan

[adamokeefe]

@ adamokeefe

I've posted this before, and so have many others - you have 2 accounts with the same bank.

One account does not have an ATM card attached to it, the other account does.

You set up internet banking.

The bulk of your money is in the account that does not have an ATM card. Small day to day living money is in the account that does have an ATM card.

You just keep topping up the day to day living account from the other account that has the bulk of your money, over the internet, as you need it.

This will not stop your card being skimmed, but it will stop the bulk of your money being stolen.

I already did what you're suggesting. And I read your posts and agree to a point that's its a good way.

I have more than 2 accounts actually, and use one to 'hold' money and one to 'spend'.

But your system is STILL flawed, as I found out - I don't even want to lose a 'small' amount of my money - its my money.

If you are even skimmed for 5k from an ATM/debit card you've lost that money. I didn't lose the 'bulk' of my money, but I still lost some of MY money.

Reason I say the best way I can think is to have an account without card and a Thai credit card is better than what you suggest is that the Visa/Master credit card will be insured better for fraud and more likely to pay it back without as much hassle. Or has anyone had issues with fraud from credit cards in the same way?

And to be honest, what makes you feel secure about internet banking??

As I stated in my post, this method will not stop your card from being skimmed, but will minimise your loss. It's not "flawed" - it's a way to minimise your exposure to the amount that can be stolen. I never stated it was 100% safe.

Of course, the loss of even 1 baht is crime.

I do not have a Thai credit card. I have a Thai debit card. I can't post any experience on this, but I would suggest that a Thai bank would give you some grief from missing credit card money, the same way they would give you grief over missing your own money that has been skimmed. I realise you are talking about "credit" funds, but I believe you can do "cash advances" on the credit card, at an ATM, so the skimmers still caputure your data and take the money.

At the end of the day, it's very inconvenient to not have an ATM card and to resort to over the counter transactions, which in all probability, will be larger withdrawals - so, you now have the risk of armed robbery, assaulted and robbed, pickpocketed, bag snatched or your house being broken into.

Other things you can do to try to minimise the risk with ATM card use is, obviously, check out the ATM for skimming equipment. Yes, they are difficult to spot, but look carefully. Stand across the road for a few minutes and watch other people use the ATM - do you see anyone suspicious coming and going from the ATM after someone has used the machine. Use an ATM inside a shopping centre that has security guards and CCTV.

In relation to internet banking. I always internet bank in the privacy of my own home - no CCTV looking at my keyboard. I always use my own computer - never a public computer in an internet cafe. I always keep my anti-virus/spy/malware up to date. I use internet banking with conjunction with a "one time password" (OTP) sent to my mobile phone. So, even if my internet bank account is hacked, no money can be moved unless they also have my mobile phone.

At the end of the day, nothing will make you 100% safe from criminals. All you can do is try to minimise your risk to loss, and the impact from that loss if/when it occurs.

Reason I think credit cards may be safer is that they are insured by Visa or Mastercard, rather than the issuing bank? I could well be misinformed about that however. Therefore it's not the bank policy on fraud that's the issue?

Regarding the SMS alerts, one other thing occurred to me - with K-Bank, SCB and Bangkok Bank you can cancel SMS alerts at the ATM. What on earth is the point of that? If they have your card cloned and your PIN, they can disable the SMS alert, change the daily limit and then promptly remove all your cash. Even if you receive an instant message to alert you the SMS service has been cancelled, it's highly unlikely you'll be able to get through to someone at the bank quick enough to cancel the card before they then take out all your cash. Bizarre system indeed.

[Soupdragon]

@ adamokeefe

I've posted this before, and so have many others - you have 2 accounts with the same bank.

One account does not have an ATM card attached to it, the other account does.

You set up internet banking.

The bulk of your money is in the account that does not have an ATM card. Small day to day living money is in the account that does have an ATM card.

You just keep topping up the day to day living account from the other account that has the bulk of your money, over the internet, as you need it.

This will not stop your card being skimmed, but it will stop the bulk of your money being stolen.

I already did what you're suggesting. And I read your posts and agree to a point that's its a good way.

I have more than 2 accounts actually, and use one to 'hold' money and one to 'spend'.

But your system is STILL flawed, as I found out - I don't even want to lose a 'small' amount of my money - its my money.

If you are even skimmed for 5k from an ATM/debit card you've lost that money. I didn't lose the 'bulk' of my money, but I still lost some of MY money.

Reason I say the best way I can think is to have an account without card and a Thai credit card is better than what you suggest is that the Visa/Master credit card will be insured better for fraud and more likely to pay it back without as much hassle. Or has anyone had issues with fraud from credit cards in the same way?

And to be honest, what makes you feel secure about internet banking??

As I stated in my post, this method will not stop your card from being skimmed, but will minimise your loss. It's not "flawed" - it's a way to minimise your exposure to the amount that can be stolen. I never stated it was 100% safe.

Of course, the loss of even 1 baht is crime.

I do not have a Thai credit card. I have a Thai debit card. I can't post any experience on this, but I would suggest that a Thai bank would give you some grief from missing credit card money, the same way they would give you grief over missing your own money that has been skimmed. I realise you are talking about "credit" funds, but I believe you can do "cash advances" on the credit card, at an ATM, so the skimmers still caputure your data and take the money.

At the end of the day, it's very inconvenient to not have an ATM card and to resort to over the counter transactions, which in all probability, will be larger withdrawals - so, you now have the risk of armed robbery, assaulted and robbed, pickpocketed, bag snatched or your house being broken into.

Other things you can do to try to minimise the risk with ATM card use is, obviously, check out the ATM for skimming equipment. Yes, they are difficult to spot, but look carefully. Stand across the road for a few minutes and watch other people use the ATM - do you see anyone suspicious coming and going from the ATM after someone has used the machine. Use an ATM inside a shopping centre that has security guards and CCTV.

In relation to internet banking. I always internet bank in the privacy of my own home - no CCTV looking at my keyboard. I always use my own computer - never a public computer in an internet cafe. I always keep my anti-virus/spy/malware up to date. I use internet banking with conjunction with a "one time password" (OTP) sent to my mobile phone. So, even if my internet bank account is hacked, no money can be moved unless they also have my mobile phone.

At the end of the day, nothing will make you 100% safe from criminals. All you can do is try to minimise your risk to loss, and the impact from that loss if/when it occurs.

Reason I think credit cards may be safer is that they are insured by Visa or Mastercard, rather than the issuing bank? I could well be misinformed about that however. Therefore it's not the bank policy on fraud that's the issue?

Regarding the SMS alerts, one other thing occurred to me - with K-Bank, SCB and Bangkok Bank you can cancel SMS alerts at the ATM. What on earth is the point of that? If they have your card cloned and your PIN, they can disable the SMS alert, change the daily limit and then promptly remove all your cash. Even if you receive an instant message to alert you the SMS service has been cancelled, it's highly unlikely you'll be able to get through to someone at the bank quick enough to cancel the card before they then take out all your cash. Bizarre system indeed.

Do you get an SMS informing you that the SMS alert has been cancelled ?

I know when I set up SMS alerts it wasn't activated until 7.00 am the next day. Is it the same for cancellation ?

I will have to look into this.

[stevenl]

@ adamokeefe

I've posted this before, and so have many others - you have 2 accounts with the same bank.

One account does not have an ATM card attached to it, the other account does.

You set up internet banking.

The bulk of your money is in the account that does not have an ATM card. Small day to day living money is in the account that does have an ATM card.

You just keep topping up the day to day living account from the other account that has the bulk of your money, over the internet, as you need it.

This will not stop your card being skimmed, but it will stop the bulk of your money being stolen.

I already did what you're suggesting. And I read your posts and agree to a point that's its a good way.

I have more than 2 accounts actually, and use one to 'hold' money and one to 'spend'.

But your system is STILL flawed, as I found out - I don't even want to lose a 'small' amount of my money - its my money.

If you are even skimmed for 5k from an ATM/debit card you've lost that money. I didn't lose the 'bulk' of my money, but I still lost some of MY money.

Reason I say the best way I can think is to have an account without card and a Thai credit card is better than what you suggest is that the Visa/Master credit card will be insured better for fraud and more likely to pay it back without as much hassle. Or has anyone had issues with fraud from credit cards in the same way?

And to be honest, what makes you feel secure about internet banking??

As I stated in my post, this method will not stop your card from being skimmed, but will minimise your loss. It's not "flawed" - it's a way to minimise your exposure to the amount that can be stolen. I never stated it was 100% safe.

Of course, the loss of even 1 baht is crime.

I do not have a Thai credit card. I have a Thai debit card. I can't post any experience on this, but I would suggest that a Thai bank would give you some grief from missing credit card money, the same way they would give you grief over missing your own money that has been skimmed. I realise you are talking about "credit" funds, but I believe you can do "cash advances" on the credit card, at an ATM, so the skimmers still caputure your data and take the money.

At the end of the day, it's very inconvenient to not have an ATM card and to resort to over the counter transactions, which in all probability, will be larger withdrawals - so, you now have the risk of armed robbery, assaulted and robbed, pickpocketed, bag snatched or your house being broken into.

Other things you can do to try to minimise the risk with ATM card use is, obviously, check out the ATM for skimming equipment. Yes, they are difficult to spot, but look carefully. Stand across the road for a few minutes and watch other people use the ATM - do you see anyone suspicious coming and going from the ATM after someone has used the machine. Use an ATM inside a shopping centre that has security guards and CCTV.

In relation to internet banking. I always internet bank in the privacy of my own home - no CCTV looking at my keyboard. I always use my own computer - never a public computer in an internet cafe. I always keep my anti-virus/spy/malware up to date. I use internet banking with conjunction with a "one time password" (OTP) sent to my mobile phone. So, even if my internet bank account is hacked, no money can be moved unless they also have my mobile phone.

At the end of the day, nothing will make you 100% safe from criminals. All you can do is try to minimise your risk to loss, and the impact from that loss if/when it occurs.

Reason I think credit cards may be safer is that they are insured by Visa or Mastercard, rather than the issuing bank? I could well be misinformed about that however. Therefore it's not the bank policy on fraud that's the issue?

Regarding the SMS alerts, one other thing occurred to me - with K-Bank, SCB and Bangkok Bank you can cancel SMS alerts at the ATM. What on earth is the point of that? If they have your card cloned and your PIN, they can disable the SMS alert, change the daily limit and then promptly remove all your cash. Even if you receive an instant message to alert you the SMS service has been cancelled, it's highly unlikely you'll be able to get through to someone at the bank quick enough to cancel the card before they then take out all your cash. Bizarre system indeed.

Did you try to update the SMS alerts yourself or did you read is somewhere? Just checked with my Kasikorn ATM, and I can not cancel the SMS alerts at the ATM, nor can I change the withdrawel limit at the ATM.

[up2you2]

I suggest he reads this story and sees if his situation is similar:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/528145-phuket-atm-scams-even-professionals-get-caught-out/

PS. For 10 baht a month, I get an SMS message when any money is removed or added to my account.

For another 10 baht, I get an SMS message when ever my Internet banking account is logged in.

Is this with Kasikorn ? How do I set this up ?

totster

After having done masses of research on this subject, I would respectively suggest you go to the following link, to increase your chances that you will not end up as another victim:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/649648-a-safer-way-to-use-an-atm-in-thailand/