Saving Face - Thailands Biggest Problem

[sustento]

Agree strongly with the thread title.

How can a problem be fixed when it won't even be recognized?

Thais don't have a problem with face. They all understand it. It's outsiders like the OP who have the problems.

[pgrahmm]

Maybe I'm in a different Thailand - I've never once (in years) had someone try to push in front of me. In the US yep - they tried - in India it's like a fire drill without manners...but not once in Thailand.

Don't like the driving here? Go drive in the Philippines for a week.....OP - you WILL learn some lessons there.....

Personally I think the OP has somewhat of an attitude - hopefully we don't have to "face off" waiting in line somewhere - I don't think he'd like that result either......

Edited July 15, 2013 by pgrahmm

[Andre0720]

"it does explain why public officials get transferred instead of sacked...

Official get transferred out of the area until the case is proved. If he stay in the position, his influence might affect the process.

Sorry, may not have been "Transam" who Posted

"Official get transferred out of the area until the case is proved. If he stay in the position, his influence might affect the process."

but I can't Edit the Thread.

Anyway - it's nonsense to suggest that simply transferring someone to another Area will negate his influence there; such influence is not confined or personal to one individual, it permeates the whole infrastructure of the local Organisation and will persist and protect him even after he has been transferred to an "inactive" Position.

More importantly however, and to address the main Topic, I really feel that this concept of "Face" - seen by "Farang" as being a specific to Thais - is also total nonsense.

No-one likes to be embarrassed or made to look foolish - English, American, German, Thai - whoever, if you are shamed in public then the feeling and reaction will be similar.

To my mind there is absolutely no difference in the reaction - regardless of nationality.

Patrick

Not so sure about that...

I remember a girl who used to say "dumb broad", about herself when she thought she did something stupid.

In Thailand, I often say about myself: "farang Ngo:h", stupid farang.

I use that phrase to teach thai people around me that appearing stupid is not so bad after all.

As it is said, only yourself can make you feel bad...

Thais have learned the opposite.

[pgrahmm]

Maybe I'm in a different Thailand - I've never once (in years) had someone try to push in front of me. In the US yep - they tried - in India it's like a fire drill without manners...but not once in Thailand.

Don't like the driving here? Go drive in the Philippines for a week.....you will learn some lessons there.....

[Andre0720]

"it does explain why public officials get transferred instead of sacked...

Official get transferred out of the area until the case is proved. If he stay in the position, his influence might affect the process.

Sorry, may not have been "Transam" who Posted

"Official get transferred out of the area until the case is proved. If he stay in the position, his influence might affect the process."

but I can't Edit the Thread.

Anyway - it's nonsense to suggest that simply transferring someone to another Area will negate his influence there; such influence is not confined or personal to one individual, it permeates the whole infrastructure of the local Organisation and will persist and protect him even after he has been transferred to an "inactive" Position.

More importantly however, and to address the main Topic, I really feel that this concept of "Face" - seen by "Farang" as being a specific to Thais - is also total nonsense.

No-one likes to be embarrassed or made to look foolish - English, American, German, Thai - whoever, if you are shamed in public then the feeling and reaction will be similar.

To my mind there is absolutely no difference in the reaction - regardless of nationality.

Patrick

Not so sure about that...

I remember a girl who used to say "dumb broad", about herself when she thought she did something stupid.

In Thailand, I often say about myself: "farang Ngo:h", stupid farang.

I use that phrase to teach thai people around me that appearing stupid is not so bad after all.

As it is said, only yourself can make you feel bad...

Thais have learned the opposite.

[BillyBobThai]

I think that the teaching of world history from grade 1 forward woulf help with face problem. Most Thais have no idea how Thailand compares with the rest of the world.

[BillyBobThai]

I think that the teaching of world history from grade 1 forward would help with face problem. Most Thais have no idea how Thailand compares with the rest of the world.

[Dap]

I do say something when people push in front of me, some look at me like I killed someone.

Others just have that blank stare, whatever the case they know full well when they are pushing in what they are doing.

It's in their mind, "this is wrong, he is in front of me, but i'm gonna push in anyway".

Knowing that I think its right to tell them politely to move back.

I stop being polite when they stop being polite.

[KarenBravo]

I think that the teaching of world history from grade 1 forward woulf help with face problem. Most Thais have no idea how Thailand compares with the rest of the world.

Maybe they should first teach that asking questions is a good thing.

[StreetCowboy]

I do say something when people push in front of me, some look at me like I killed someone.

Others just have that blank stare, whatever the case they know full well when they are pushing in what they are doing.

It's in their mind, "this is wrong, he is in front of me, but i'm gonna push in anyway".

Knowing that I think its right to tell them politely to move back.

I stop being polite when they stop being polite.

I try not to let other people dictate my behaviour. I know I can be as much of an <deleted> as anyone, but I don't need to prove it

[sustento]

I think that the teaching of world history from grade 1 forward would help with face problem. Most Thais have no idea how Thailand compares with the rest of the world.

Most of them don't care. It's the rest of the world that seems to worry about it.

[benalibina]

Agree strongly with the thread title.

How can a problem be fixed when it won't even be recognized?

Thais don't have a problem with face. They all understand it. It's outsiders like the OP who have the problems.

If they do not have a problem with it, it does not exist you mean ? Than what is than the underlying problem ?

[sustento]

Agree strongly with the thread title.

How can a problem be fixed when it won't even be recognized?

Thais don't have a problem with face. They all understand it. It's outsiders like the OP who have the problems.

If they do not have a problem with it, it does not exist you mean ? Than what is than the underlying problem ?

It exists but because Thais have grown up with the concept of face all around them it's not a problem for THEM. They understand how it works and what part they play in it. It may be a problem for foreigners but that's not really a problem for the Thais to solve.

[Andre0720]

Too many farang apparently don't even understand what the concept of saving face is, judging by the first page.

And if you do, I am just wondering how your post will be useful

[sustento]

Too many farang apparently don't even understand what the concept of saving face is, judging by the first page.

And if you do, I am just wondering how your post will be useful

I would imagine it would be very useful in Thailand. Admittedly it might not be useful to those foreigners who pitch up in Thailand and think it's their job to tell the Thais how to run their country but I suspect that the Thais don't really give a sh1t.

[Dap]

I do say something when people push in front of me, some look at me like I killed someone.

Others just have that blank stare, whatever the case they know full well when they are pushing in what they are doing.

It's in their mind, "this is wrong, he is in front of me, but i'm gonna push in anyway".

Knowing that I think its right to tell them politely to move back.

I stop being polite when they stop being polite.

I try not to let other people dictate my behaviour. I know I can be as much of an arsehol_e as anyone, but I don't need to prove it

I tip my hat to a better man than myself Sometimes it's just way to difficult for me to ignore being physically pushed aside.

[dontejo]

Bought a couple of bits in Tesco today, put my stuff on the counter, a lady behind put all her stuff amongst my stuff on the counter, it confused the teller, and me. I had to chuck her stuff out the way.

Yeh it is a confusing conundrum.

Why not just walk away and let pay her all?

Then go shopping again.

[Samuipie]

The concept of "saving face" is indeed one of the most culturally different phenomenon we encounter here as westerners. Despite being raised in Japan and growing up Buddhist I find this a most destructive behavior.

First, if we follow the Buddhist dhamma we aren't supposed to have a FACE as it teaches us to drop our attachments and willful desires. Face, as we see it in Thailand seems to be an expression of pure EGO as if one is above making mistakes.

Second point is how long Thais will hold on to the act of losing face and seek revenge even years later! They really seem to nurture this supposed insult against all sensibility.

Last, I don't even know half the time when I have done something that causes loss of said FACE. It's like suddenly the air turns cold and you wonder "What just happened? Whad I do? Help!"

I totally agree that it is a harmful, counter-productive concept that works against better communication and understanding for all.

Samui pie

[Lickey]

I thought thai-Bashing was against the posting rules, it seems not,

[sustento]

The concept of "saving face" is indeed one of the most culturally different phenomenon we encounter here as westerners. Despite being raised in Japan and growing up Buddhist I find this a most destructive behavior.

First, if we follow the Buddhist dhamma we aren't supposed to have a FACE as it teaches us to drop our attachments and willful desires. Face, as we see it in Thailand seems to be an expression of pure EGO as if one is above making mistakes.

Second point is how long Thais will hold on to the act of losing face and seek revenge even years later! They really seem to nurture this supposed insult against all sensibility.

Last, I don't even know half the time when I have done something that causes loss of said FACE. It's like suddenly the air turns cold and you wonder "What just happened? Whad I do? Help!"

I totally agree that it is a harmful, counter-productive concept that works against better communication and understanding for all.

Samui pie

You've only got to persuade 60 million Thais to your point of view. Good luck...

[metisdead]

A post in violation of this forum rule has been removed:

3) Not to post in a manner that is vulgar, obscene or profane.

[NBD]

Agree strongly with the thread title.

How can a problem be fixed when it won't even be recognized?

Thais don't have a problem with face. They all understand it. It's outsiders like the OP who have the problems.

Except the Thais who do get stabbed or shot because of some perceived insult, or the Thais who bankrupt themselves trying to make face, or the Thais who have to drive on roads that are falling to bits, driven on by people who can't drive safely in cars that shouldn't be allowed on the road all because no-one wants to cause a loss of face by pulling someone up on their failings.

They might understand it, they might play along with it and believe in it themselves, but as I read it the idea is that Thailand could be improved dramatically for everyone if people weren't so obsessed with this childish concept.

As for how it can be fixed - I suspect that like medieval deference and religious lunacy it will die away with economic development.