Saving Face - Thailands Biggest Problem

[oneday]

Saving Face is a nice way of saying; "I'm failing to FACE up to my RESPONSIBILITIES". I think it's a pathetic way of getting out of a tight situation. I don't give a $hite about cultural differences, that's REALLY what it amounts to.

I couldn't agree more. I always say that "Saving Face", no matter what country, is the only cultural trait I DO NOT and WILL NOT accept as OK for certain situations. "Saving Face" is as TimTang says, "often used for not taking RESPONSIBILITY for ones own actions.". There are times I can see it's OK and it almost certainly helps defuse certain situations, but it's carried way too far for too many things. On the other hand, not all Thais use it to avoid their RESPONSIBILITY. They are not all the same.

Has anyone every had a Thai say, "sorry, I don't know where it is" when asking for directions? I have now come to a point where I never trust the first answer, it's just a starting point.

Edited May 21, 2013 by oneday

[marcusd]

Imagine this: All governments in Europe declare, that all retirees have to live in a foreign country starting tomorrow. Let's call this country "Xanadu".

In "Xanadu" the "not losing face syndrome" rules daily life. (Including cheating, not telling the truth if it's inconveniant, etc.etc.etc.) AND: The climate corresponds to the average temperature and humidity of a finnish-sauna for 8 months out of the year.

Undoubtedly, a wave of protest and outrage would swamp over Europe = "How can you send us to a Hel*hole like this! ....... "I want to talk to my lawyer" etc etc.

It's good to know, that Farangs living already in "Xanadu" have appearantly no problem with the "not loosing face syndrome" and everything that comes with it.

Of course the statement ......... "they are all just in Xanadu for the cheap pu**y and the cheap booze", must be dismissed as a vicious rumor anyway.

Cheers.

I just LIVE the way you describe things in Xanadu... 55555 lol. Rofl.

As they say... If you cannot stand tge heat... Get out of tge kitchen.

Ps if ANYONE... knows a perfect place to live where tgere are no issues at all.. PLEASE LET ME KNOW. i will go there.

[Suradit69]

"Why the word "mai be lai" is used more than a "honk" from a car horn and so on..."

It also explains why the concept of road rage is prevalent in western countries, especially in the US. If someone cuts you off or doesn't instantly accelerate when the light turns green, you lay on the horn, yell obscenities at one another, raise the middle finger as a salute, ram your car into the other guy and pull a gun. Yes, honking and making sure everyone else drives according to your rules works real well. Because saving face and having your way are the most important thing.

It also explains why in western countries so many people have regular sessions with their "shrink" in order to cope and why drug companies make billions from the sale of Prozac and similar drugs that treat emotional instability, panic attacks and the compulsive need to control others.

The terms control freak, ego-centric, obsessive-compulsive disorder, going postal and disgruntled employee returns to former place of work with rocket-launcher are uniquely western and are, to a large extent, the product of face-saving and the lack of self-control as demonstrated by the chosen people, aka farangs.

"enforce right from wrong, the more backwards this country goes"

Throwing a hissy fit in public has nothing to do with enforcing right, it's an ego trip for the person hitting the horn.

If you've ever successfully managed people and encouraged cooperation, you'd know that constantly pointing out their mistakes and hectoring them in public is only going to encourage resentment and rebelliousness ... in any country or culture. Try blasting a waiter or waitress in the enlightened west and you can bet your food will have a little of his/her DNA floating in it.

[oneday]

I do agree about idiot drivers around this country but it's nothing to do with saving face because Thais tend to avoid argument if possible. The problems here are lack of discipline and law enforcement.

"But they continue to make the same idiotic mistake over and over and if I dont say something, it continues"

Why don't you talk privately with them? Talking privately cannot solve the problem? It's nothing about saving face but it's embarrassing to all people not only Thais when their mistakes are exposed to crowd. Why 15 years old bullied american girl committed suicide if she didn't care what people think after she was exposed having been raped then taped by four boys? It was not even her fault. In fact, she'd lived her life normally 1 year before the tape was posted on Youtube. She could stand being raped, not the tape. Why?

"it does explain why public officials get transferred instead of sacked...

Official get transferred out of the area until the case is proved. If he stay in the position, his influence might affect the process.

Your wrong about the driving and face. .

Correct. Thai law prescribes to drive in the leftmost lane, unless you are overtaking another vehicle. So, it is the OP who currently is mistaking "face" for "law-abiding" behavior. This being said, I avoid the left lane on Sukhumvit, not because of drivers coming out, but because of the numerous cars parked in that lane.

...and the potential for idiots opening their doors to look out to see if it's clear instead of rolling the window down to look or using the side-mirror or just idiots opening their door without looking or giving a damn.

[mauGR1]

Saving face in Thailand--When Thais see a farang guy with a totally skanked-out hooker and pretends like they are just a normal couple. Just so the farang guy won't lose face. That's pretty decent of them, don't you think?

Well spotted, in fact, it works both ways.

Thanks for noticing. The whole philosophy of "saving face" is really not as nefarious as many make it out to be. Simply put, it just means that one should avoid publicly offending or humiliating another unnecessarily. Wouldn't it be great if we all lived our lives like that? Well, we actually do....or we try. Back in the states, as a manager, we know that we should never chew-out our subordinates in front of others. And why not? So they don't lose face. I would think that this is a common sense sort of thing the world over.

Agree completely..For me it's just a matter of respect and good manners.

Obviously our perception of common sense may be different, but i see more positives than negatives in the " saving face " Philosophy.

[oneday]

Thanks for noticing. The whole philosophy of "saving face" is really not as nefarious as many make it out to be. Simply put, it just means that one should avoid publicly offending or humiliating another unnecessarily. Wouldn't it be great if we all lived our lives like that? Well, we actually do....or we try. Back in the states, as a manager, we know that we should never chew-out our subordinates in front of others. And why not? So they don't lose face. I would think that this is a common sense sort of thing the world over.

I don't agree. It's also used to avoid embarrassing oneself and that's what really bothers many people, including some Thais.

I was driving my bike one day with my Thai GF and her sister on her bike behind me, when I came to a sudden stop due to a car stopping in front of me. A young Thai man didn't stop in time and hit my girl's bike from behind. Nothing big happened, it was a small accident and nothing to worry about. What bothered not only me and my GF and her sister was after righting his bike he drove off without looking at anyone to "save face". All he had to do was give some form of acknowledgment such as a "sorry" or an apologetic smile or something. It disgusted all of us with how he reacted. And I really think he did it more out of embarrassment rather than being worried about having to pay for something...though I could be wrong.

The rest of what you say is true. We, in the West, don't, have nearly as good a control over not yelling at or chewing others out in public. "Saving Face" does pretty much reduce that considerably in countries that have this cultural aspect. It's other uses of "Saving Face" that are irritating as hell. Namely, hiding from embarrassing yourself.

Edited May 21, 2013 by oneday

[somchai jones]

Saving face in Thailand--When Thais see a farang guy with a totally skanked-out hooker and pretends like they are just a normal couple. Just so the farang guy won't lose face. That's pretty decent of them, don't you think?

Classic!

[Lancelot]

We have it back home as well. I have a sister that explodes the instant some one disagrees with her. Its called manipulation- and sadly, it works...

[thhMan]

Actually, as I am on the scooter, being in the utmost left lane has quite a few problems. As the roads dont get cleaned, there is so much junk on the left and punctures are quite common. Cars and trucks tend to inch out as a warning to scooters, who then may need to drift out the the second lane, which if not careful, could send you into the path of an oncoming car. Baht buses slam on brakes at the wiff of a potential customer and have total disregard to who is following them in the same lane. Buses will squeeze you not just out of the left lane, but sometimes up into the footpath (has happened to me twice)... Then there are pedestrians, car doors opening etc...

However... 2nd lane... no problem Jack!

[overherebc]

Don't think it's limited to any one country, it just exists in all countries to varying degrees.

My take on it is that many people are so full of their own importance that they actually believe everyone is looking them all the time to admire them in some strange way.

When someone challenges that state then they feel slighted by the challenge and react in a negative way, either they get angry or they get embarrassed.

Some nationalities have a greater sense of I am than others and therefore have a stronger reaction to the situation when they are put on the spot.

My humble 2 bahts worth.

[morrobay]

Saving Face is a nice way of saying; "I'm failing to FACE up to my RESPONSIBILITIES". I think it's a pathetic way of getting out of a tight situation. I don't give a $hite about cultural differences, that's REALLY what it amounts to.

Right on - Face - Shmace. It may have started in principle as a good thing. but has been hijacked by reckless people getting away with being reckless. For example the city bus drivers in

Bangkok that drop passengers off in the middle of the road . And the Thais do not complain at all , even if they get hit by a motobike like i saw happen to some poor woman.

[atyclb]

Bought a couple of bits in Tesco today, put my stuff on the counter, a lady behind put all her stuff amongst my stuff on the counter, it confused the teller, and me. I had to chuck her stuff out the way.

Yeh it is a confusing conundrum.

That happens tio me also. I have tried asking them(in their own language) how the cashier can know where my purchase ends and your begins or just think it is all mine. Usually the person cannot connect the dots to answer.

Most do not use a "merchandise separator" even if is in plain sight.

"Saving Face" seems to be quite an appropriate defense/coping mechanism in a society where cognitive development is usually at a minimum. If the education system ever changes and people are taught "how to think" the concept of face should fade.

Japan might also have "face" but Japanese society has honor and integrity in addition to organization, efficiency and a high education standard.

[longstebe]

Saving face like the thai woman on the news this morning reporting that she'd payed 70,000 baht to what was basically a scam.

Must be another form of saving face.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Stradavarius37]

One day the OP is going to get his ass beaten badly, if he ever acts out on his thoughts of "doing something about it".

[NoshowJones]

You say saving face is a "non aggressive behavior"? So when a bus driver crashes a bus because he's drunk or driving erratically and many people die, then he flees the scene because he' "SAVING FACE" That's acceptable behavior?

He very likely is not fleeing the scene to save his face, it's to save his skin.

[atyclb]

Saving face in Thailand--When Thais see a farang guy with a totally skanked-out hooker and pretends like they are just a normal couple. Just so the farang guy won't lose face. That's pretty decent of them, don't you think?

Well spotted, in fact, it works both ways.

Thanks for noticing. The whole philosophy of "saving face" is really not as nefarious as many make it out to be. Simply put, it just means that one should avoid publicly offending or humiliating another unnecessarily. Wouldn't it be great if we all lived our lives like that? Well, we actually do....or we try. Back in the states, as a manager, we know that we should never chew-out our subordinates in front of others. And why not? So they don't lose face. I would think that this is a common sense sort of thing the world over.

Discretion and diplomacy are far different from a society that is unable to accept responsibility or institute accountability. Theres certainly "outside the box" Thai people that feel the very same way.

So many different types of "face" to promote some degree of harmony goes hand in hand in a soceity so very lacking in substance (lack of independent/critical thinking, low moral standard, education system etc etc)

[FM505]

Its all about keeping people dumbed down. Say nothing, do nothing. There is plenty of cheap food and booze for the populace. Transportation is affordable while comfort is absent. Wages are low and those jobs are plentiful... change employment on a whim. Get used to it... nothing will change. Education matters little... live for today.

Planning ahead requires thought and eventually consistently hard work to achieve something worthwhile. Cooperation... barely existent... only when direct benefits are realized. Community outreach... only a super minimum of people embrace this kind of endeavor. Requires time, energy, and funding.

On the other hand, the ruling class are in full tilt party mode. Government 'jobs' are the end all... ultimate situation. No work required, along with accountability, responsibility, et. al. Corrupt minds lead society and this trend trickles on down where a standard of misdirection is adopted and mastered yet pales to the vibrant and overt 'slight of hand' from the power positions in society.

Polygamist tendencies add fuel to the instability of society. Important days/traditions must be divided between various camps... people have only so much time and energy. This minimizes intimacy and more the vital aspects of loving/lasting/deeply meaningful relationships that can be achieved with a mature perspective on life. That 'perspective' has long been established - that families thrive best of all in a traditional two parent commitment... and its d*mn hard work.

Abandoned children... epidemic. But don't talk about it. Stray animals... what a bother. Do nothing.

Laziness results from a lack of meaning in people's lives. Everyone wants/needs to matter... to be part of something meaningful/stable/reliable. This is absent all too often in life. The skills and support needed to improve a life situation are not a continuous part of public education or the public discourse.

Then swarm the streets with everyone so everything is within reach for 'convenience'. No planning for real sidewalks, proper locations for markets, parking, etc. Organized behavior requires discipline. That's too difficult. In the same breath, the public access areas can be sold to vendors by the uniformed thugs making rent. This wont' change. As one commenter stated: 'Saving face is more like saving skin'. How people overcome these challenges is another topic.

Being a civilized human being is d*mn hard work. - A. Bartlett Giamatti

Edited May 21, 2013 by FM505

[arminbkk]

I think what the OP is after is that, although the concept of 'saving face' or 'lak sa na' occurs in western countries also, here in Thailand it is applied for situations or

acts where in the West it wouldn't. The concept is the main reason while people here don't complain or point out something when it happens.

Nobody likes queue jumpers wherever you're from. Back home someone will say something about it, here usually they won't.

Nobody likes motorcycles on sidewalks, people cutting right in front of you, or making a dead stop in front of you knowingly (my all time 'favorite'),

tossing garbage away, having a telephone conversation at an entrance/exit as if you're the only one around, not giving way on a sidewalk

or even hold in your bag when passing; basically moving about as if there is nobody else there or near.

As others have said, these things happen and keep happening because nobody say something about it.

To save someone's face, one also has to lie a lot: 'yes those are nice shoes', 'that food smells/tastes good', 'your English is good',

'yes those glasses make you look smart' etc.

I often found that, by doing what Thais do to save face, in our eyes, that what they do actually makes them loose face.

But yeah, TiT and we should look through Thai eyes.

[atyclb]

Saving Face is a nice way of saying; "I'm failing to FACE up to my RESPONSIBILITIES". I think it's a pathetic way of getting out of a tight situation. I don't give a $hite about cultural differences, that's REALLY what it amounts to.

Right on - Face - Shmace. It may have started in principle as a good thing. but has been hijacked by reckless people getting away with being reckless. For example the city bus drivers in

Bangkok that drop passengers off in the middle of the road . And the Thais do not complain at all , even if they get hit by a motobike like i saw happen to some poor woman.

IMO many do not even have the "awareness" of danger or dangerous situations. Example; disabled seat-belts in speeding overloaded vans. Never seen anyone complain or even appear concerned or aware of anything wrong.

[harrismac]

Saving face in Thailand--When Thais see a farang guy with a totally skanked-out hooker and pretends like they are just a normal couple. Just so the farang guy won't lose face. That's pretty decent of them, don't you think?

Well spotted, in fact, it works both ways.

Me personally, I would not give a damn who seen what and what they thought. But I am American. That doesn't make me wrong.

[sausageandmash]

i have a friend (thai) who is going to marry because his best friends wife introduced him to her sister , took her for about a month and then the father told him he will have to marry her ,So he is going to do that , does he love her ...no ..

save face yes

What a pee-narse. He deserves everything he gets.

[sausageandmash]

As far as going easy on Thai staff when they screw up goes, then anyone listening to that "advice" really needs their head examined. You are the leader, NOT them. The boss makes the rules, NOT the staff.

As far as queue-jumping goes, I was waiting for a document at a government department recently and a guy who looked like he was some kind of messenger tried to push his way through to the front. What happened next amazed and delighted me; the guy was literally dragged to the back of the queue and heavily berated by a woman who obviously worked there. She had a 62 inch bust and knuckles like a navvy. Fantastic to see justice done. Way to go, big Mama!!!

[VocalNeal]

So (and correct me if I am wrong), the more people that dont enforce right from wrong, the more backwards this country goes,

Well I can't agree with this. This is Thailand and it is run by Thais, albeit Chinese Thais. This is obviously the way they like it. The economy seems to be OK. So we are not going backwards?

The west is a guilt focused society, Asia is shame focused society. So being reassigned as a government official is shame enough.

My recent thinking about westerners complaining about things being wrong in Thailand is more reflection on the demographics of the westerners now coming here and not that things in Thailand and becoming increasingly wrong or bad.

[Thaddeus]

Bought a couple of bits in Tesco today, put my stuff on the counter, a lady behind put all her stuff amongst my stuff on the counter, it confused the teller, and me. I had to chuck her stuff out the way.

Yeh it is a confusing conundrum.

That happens tio me also. I have tried asking them(in their own language) how the cashier can know where my purchase ends and your begins or just think it is all mine. Usually the person cannot connect the dots to answer.

I have an easier solution for this situation.

I walk away from the counter leaving behind the 3 or 4 items I had put there, then go and get them again and go to a different till.

[Berkshire]

So (and correct me if I am wrong), the more people that dont enforce right from wrong, the more backwards this country goes,

Well I can't agree with this. This is Thailand and it is run by Thais, albeit Chinese Thais. This is obviously the way they like it. The economy seems to be OK. So we are not going backwards?

The west is a guilt focused society, Asia is shame focused society. So being reassigned as a government official is shame enough.

My recent thinking about westerners complaining about things being wrong in Thailand is more reflection on the demographics of the westerners now coming here and not that things in Thailand and becoming increasingly wrong or bad.

Good points Neal...especially that last paragraph.

[thhMan]

So (and correct me if I am wrong), the more people that dont enforce right from wrong, the more backwards this country goes,

Well I can't agree with this. This is Thailand and it is run by Thais, albeit Chinese Thais. This is obviously the way they like it. The economy seems to be OK. So we are not going backwards?

The west is a guilt focused society, Asia is shame focused society. So being reassigned as a government official is shame enough.

My recent thinking about westerners complaining about things being wrong in Thailand is more reflection on the demographics of the westerners now coming here and not that things in Thailand and becoming increasingly wrong or bad.

I would like to agree with you... except, the Thais that I speak with actually agree with what I say. They are ashamed of what Thailand is becoming.... Its a huge toilet, because nobody gives a damn and instead blame someone or something else.. like the west!

I dont think blaming the west is really called for... Thats too easy!... Thats the Thai way!

Thailand is screwing itself up, by trying to be more than they are.... Its not working as they dont have the education/skills/people to deal with the progress.... but still want the progress regardless....

Im not sure if anyone has noticed, but the world is multicultural these days and some countries like Thailand are fighting to avoid that.... Its mine,mine,mine.. go home damn foreigner!

EDIT... I love Thailand and I am making plans to live a tad more remotely with my Thai family and enjoy the original Thai culture and all its beauty... And teach my kids, right from wrong, even if it goes against culture and law.... which is basically... do unto others as you would have them do unto you... (I am not a religious nut.. religion is the biggest shame of society in any country... In my opinion)

Edited May 21, 2013 by thhMan

[David48]

Saving face in Thailand--When Thais see a farang guy with a totally skanked-out hooker and pretends like they are just a normal couple. Just so the farang guy won't lose face. That's pretty decent of them, don't you think?

Well spotted, in fact, it works both ways.

Me personally, I would not give a damn who seen what and what they thought. But I am American. That doesn't make me wrong.

Dear harrismac ... I'm sure you will have one heck of a time here.

You have what Thailand obviously lacks ... a backbone.

It's your way ... or the highway ... power to you dude ...

.

[David48]

... except, the Thais that I speak with actually agree with what I say.

They say that directly to you to save your face.

... it's complicated dude.

.

[David48]

Actually, as I am on the scooter, being in the utmost left lane has quite a few problems. As the roads dont get cleaned, there is so much junk on the left and punctures are quite common. Cars and trucks tend to inch out as a warning to scooters, who then may need to drift out the the second lane, which if not careful, could send you into the path of an oncoming car. Baht buses slam on brakes at the wiff of a potential customer and have total disregard to who is following them in the same lane. Buses will squeeze you not just out of the left lane, but sometimes up into the footpath (has happened to me twice)... Then there are pedestrians, car doors opening etc...

However... 2nd lane... no problem Jack!

Surviving riding a bike in most countries is about situational awareness ... you might have having a lunch break during that lesson.

Baht buses slam on brakes at the wiff of a potential customer and have total disregard to who is following them in the same lane

And you think it's their fault if you are following to close ...

Obviously you aren't of the suitable mind set to have a bike licence in Thailand ... why haven't you bought a car?

How long have you lived in Thailand?

.

Edited May 21, 2013 by David48

[thhMan]

... except, the Thais that I speak with actually agree with what I say.

They say that directly to you to save your face.

... it's complicated dude.

.

Hehehe... yes... very complicated... It doesnt have to be...