Saving Face - Thailands Biggest Problem

[thhMan]

Actually, as I am on the scooter, being in the utmost left lane has quite a few problems. As the roads dont get cleaned, there is so much junk on the left and punctures are quite common. Cars and trucks tend to inch out as a warning to scooters, who then may need to drift out the the second lane, which if not careful, could send you into the path of an oncoming car. Baht buses slam on brakes at the wiff of a potential customer and have total disregard to who is following them in the same lane. Buses will squeeze you not just out of the left lane, but sometimes up into the footpath (has happened to me twice)... Then there are pedestrians, car doors opening etc...

However... 2nd lane... no problem Jack!

Obviously you aren't of the suitability mind set to have a bike licence in Thailand ... why haven't you bought a car?

How long have you lived in Thailand?

.

Ive been racing/riding bikes since I was 12 years old... some motocross... supercross etc... I even had a cbr 900 done up as a streetfighter in Thailand.... I had a car... Will get another at some stage when I am living in the sticks on my little farm, growing my own vegies and getting pissed with the real THAI people in some breezy shack, with chickens running around the place .... ...

7 Years in Thailand... wife... 2 Thai children... Thai grandparents to look after... Thai sisters in law that seem to always be broke.... Good Thai friends... good Cambodian friends... I was born in a poverty country... Citizen of another... living elsewhere...

Edited May 21, 2013 by thhMan

[David48]

Actually, as I am on the scooter, being in the utmost left lane has quite a few problems. As the roads dont get cleaned, there is so much junk on the left and punctures are quite common. Cars and trucks tend to inch out as a warning to scooters, who then may need to drift out the the second lane, which if not careful, could send you into the path of an oncoming car. Baht buses slam on brakes at the wiff of a potential customer and have total disregard to who is following them in the same lane. Buses will squeeze you not just out of the left lane, but sometimes up into the footpath (has happened to me twice)... Then there are pedestrians, car doors opening etc...

However... 2nd lane... no problem Jack!

Obviously you aren't of the suitability mind set to have a bike licence in Thailand ... why haven't you bought a car?

How long have you lived in Thailand?

.

Ive been racing/riding bikes since I was 12 years old... some motocross... supercross etc... I even had a cbr 900 done up as a streetfighter in Thailand.... I had a car... Will get another at some stage when I am living in the sticks on my little farm, growing my own vegies and getting pissed with the real THAI people in some breezy shack, with chickens running around the place ....

You have really piqued my interest now.

I don't know how old you are, but lets be generous and say 42.

You've been riding bikes professionally for 30 years (from age 12) ... how do a street-wise warrior as yourself make the fundamental mistake of following to closely behind a car (a Baht buses) you can't see around ...

Must be a heck of a comedown to go from a car to a 'cbr 900 done up as a streetfighter' to a tiny scooter.

If you've fallen on hard times, I tip my hat to you and wish you good times ahead. If not 'hard times' ... why such a radical change in transportation?

Good Luck ...

OH ... how long have you lived in Thailand again?

.

[kannot]

Saving face; no awareness - no thinking - no selfreflection - no empathy - ignorance - no knowledge - no confrontation - no correction -selfinterest - no accountability.

Selfdestruction is the consequence.

Mai pen rai !

The ones around let it all happen. SELFINTEREST !!!!!!!!!

Its all in the family !!

If you can't beat them, join them.

you forgot "no hope"

[stickylies]

the "save face" and "safe face of others" thing keeps the country in "balance" (ie. relatively peaceful). if ever the thai stop this tradition there will be chaos and violence all over the place. and they don't care what a farang thinks about it and will not change in a 100 years.

[thhMan]

Actually, as I am on the scooter, being in the utmost left lane has quite a few problems. As the roads dont get cleaned, there is so much junk on the left and punctures are quite common. Cars and trucks tend to inch out as a warning to scooters, who then may need to drift out the the second lane, which if not careful, could send you into the path of an oncoming car. Baht buses slam on brakes at the wiff of a potential customer and have total disregard to who is following them in the same lane. Buses will squeeze you not just out of the left lane, but sometimes up into the footpath (has happened to me twice)... Then there are pedestrians, car doors opening etc...

However... 2nd lane... no problem Jack!

Obviously you aren't of the suitability mind set to have a bike licence in Thailand ... why haven't you bought a car?

How long have you lived in Thailand?

.

Ive been racing/riding bikes since I was 12 years old... some motocross... supercross etc... I even had a cbr 900 done up as a streetfighter in Thailand.... I had a car... Will get another at some stage when I am living in the sticks on my little farm, growing my own vegies and getting pissed with the real THAI people in some breezy shack, with chickens running around the place ....

You have really piqued my interest now.

I don't know how old you are, but lets be generous and say 42.

You've been riding bikes professionally for 30 years (from age 12) ... how do a street-wise warrior as yourself make the fundamental mistake of following to closely behind a car (a Baht buses) you can't see around ...

Must be a heck of a comedown to go from a car to a 'cbr 900 done up as a streetfighter' to a tiny scooter.

If you've fallen on hard times, I tip my hat to you and wish you good times ahead. If not 'hard times' ... why such a radical change in transportation?

Good Luck ...

OH ... how long have you lived in Thailand again?

.

Yes... Hard times... I actually got my car and was let go from 3 years service with a Thai company on the same day as I got the car... No severance pay and yadda yadda... Employment office just said... farang problem, go away.... Thats THB 700k lost...

Scooter is cool to ride... and its the extreme unpredictability that causes accidents and its many years of racing thats avoided many accidents (and I am not a pro, but I did get a backed Honda ride for a year)... My missus made a comment early on in our courting... "Why you not ride same other farang".... I dont do the straight back, putt putt style...

Edited May 21, 2013 by thhMan

[pacharaphet]

The situation is a lot more compliment than both the OP and many others seem to imply. But I don't think anyone really wants to go into the details really. Saving Face has, at many times, its benefits.

I don't think you can say that a parent who lets their child wail in Lotus is saving face. I have seen plenty of Thais slap their kids and tell them to be quiet in stores, both in rural and urban areas. Many Thais consider parents letting their children do whatever they want to be quit inappropriate, and usually it gets turned into this : mi naa luuk tam dtua yae yae yaang nii...duu si por mae mai sang sawn loei (no wonder that child is acting like that, look, the parents aren't teaching/raising them at all). I see how you want to say that it's embarassing to yell at your kids in the store so it's easier not to do it, but I don't know how many Thais would agree with you that this is part of saving face. I think it's more about laziness in that specific instance.

As for the driving....no comment....driving in Thailand isn't great, but I wouldn't pin it all on "raksaa naa" by any means.

[pacharaphet]

So (and correct me if I am wrong), the more people that dont enforce right from wrong, the more backwards this country goes,

Well I can't agree with this. This is Thailand and it is run by Thais, albeit Chinese Thais. This is obviously the way they like it. The economy seems to be OK. So we are not going backwards?

The west is a guilt focused society, Asia is shame focused society. So being reassigned as a government official is shame enough.

My recent thinking about westerners complaining about things being wrong in Thailand is more reflection on the demographics of the westerners now coming here and not that things in Thailand and becoming increasingly wrong or bad.

I'd be interest to hear more of your thoughts. You had me at "Chinese Thais run the country." For sure, don't disagree at all, it's crazy how the farang and chinese have so much silent influence, because kwaam pen thai must be the end-all say-all, even if only in name but not at all in material reality.

[BarryM]

Saving face is a way of dealing with awkward situations for the emotionally immature. The sort of behaviour you see in six year olds in Europe

It's no wonder so many teachers feel at home in Thailand - their whole society must seem like a class full of kids

[thhMan]

Saving face is a way of dealing with awkward situations for the emotionally immature. The sort of behaviour you see in six year olds in Europe

It's no wonder so many teachers feel at home in Thailand - their whole society must seem like a class full of kids

You NAILED it !!!

[stickylies]

Saving face is a way of dealing with awkward situations for the emotionally immature.

i agree but do hope u're not saying that majority of westerners, here or there, are emotionally mature (especially males).

[thhMan]

About 6 month ago... My landlady's 6 yo son was screaming at the top of his lungs just outside my place.... I came tearing out and saw his mom just standing there, so I made a very quick judgement call, went over to the son and yelled back at him... Then went over to his mom and said... "He will not scream again" which my wife translated to her... She was SHOCKED at what I did..... The boy was even more shocked... didnt cry but stood there... then 2 minutes later was playing with my kids.....

The landlady... , she thanked me and said that I could teach her husband a thing or two about child rearing... (translated by my lovely wife again)....

To this day... Not a peep, except sounds of laughter as he runs around playing with my kids, or proudly showing me his new toy gun that dad bought him... (I have many airsoft guns and he is now proud to show me his collection)....

From what I am told... he is still a handful at home... but in public he is not so aggressive anymore.... Saving Face? I sure didnt...

Edited May 21, 2013 by thhMan

[thhMan]

Like Durian... Slim ladies... Coconut drinks... cheap ciggies... great weather....

Sure... but there are 2 Thailands... the one that is trying to keep up with the western world and ignoring the responsibilities that come with it and the other Thailand that can still be found, even in your own backyard, the real one.... A lot of the older Thais have a great sense of value and just.... .... Thats the one I came to Thailand to be part of... hence going bush... setting up solar this and that and knocking down a few cold ones with the old guys and listening to their stories...

Edited May 21, 2013 by thhMan

[geovalin]

I don't believe too much in any "Thainess".

Between a well educated Thai old woman and young rude farang watching a
football match, who will have the more civilized behavior? Who will
accept the rules?

Other question, is the "Thai lost of face" very different from the
"HONOUR" my father taught me? Fortunately I did not listen and I have no
honour at all, you can insult me, my family and my homeland.

[watcharacters]

Saving Face ... Thailand's Biggest Asset.

All comes down to a matter of perspective.

Not that I particularity agree with either proposition but I do think you have a naïve concept of the principle outlined in your OP.

.

.

David if you have the time and inclination please explain how you feel the OP has a naive concept of his "face" principle. I'd like to hear your viewpoint.

I certainly agree with some of his direct statements in his post such as horn honking. There's little doubt about that. Anyone who's visited the Philippines will instantly find what a stark contrast there as is to usage of the horn. Filipino drivers can't keep their hands off the horn.

They also have a universally followed concept of hiya which allows a person to dodge any bullet with a lie or anything else.

[norrona]

Saving face in Thailand--When Thais see a farang guy with a totally skanked-out hooker and pretends like they are just a normal couple. Just so the farang guy won't lose face. That's pretty decent of them, don't you think?

What in your opinion would British people do or say if they see a Thai with a totally skanked out hooker?

[watcharacters]

Bought a couple of bits in Tesco today, put my stuff on the counter, a lady behind put all her stuff amongst my stuff on the counter, it confused the teller, and me. I had to chuck her stuff out the way.

Yeh it is a confusing conundrum.

.

Cheep Charlie you!

I'd have happily paid for all her things and asked if she wanted to add even more things to her purchase. I would have smiled as widely as I could. Then I'd have said to her "pass it on". 555

Edited May 21, 2013 by watcharacters

[transam]

Bought a couple of bits in Tesco today, put my stuff on the counter, a lady behind put all her stuff amongst my stuff on the counter, it confused the teller, and me. I had to chuck her stuff out the way.

Yeh it is a confusing conundrum.

.

Cheep charlie you.

I'd have happily paid for all her things and smiled as widely as I could. Then I'd have said "pass it on". 555

I am not a Hi-so farang like most here. Sooooooooooooooo nooooooooooooooooo.

[overherebc]

Saving face in Thailand--When Thais see a farang guy with a totally skanked-out hooker and pretends like they are just a normal couple. Just so the farang guy won't lose face. That's pretty decent of them, don't you think?

What in your opinion would British people do or say if they see a Thai with a totally skanked out hooker?

Why should they do or say anything, what's

it got to do with them.

Your asking prompts the question to you, would you say or do something and why ?

[norrona]

Saving face in Thailand--When Thais see a farang guy with a totally skanked-out hooker and pretends like they are just a normal couple. Just so the farang guy won't lose face. That's pretty decent of them, don't you think?

What in your opinion would British people do or say if they see a Thai with a totally skanked out hooker?

Why should they do or say anything, what's

it got to do with them.

Your asking prompts the question to you, would you say or do something and why ?

I wouldn't do or say anything why should I, they are not hurting me....and I don't think other people would do or say anything either....that's pretty decent of people in the UK....don't you think?

But in Thailand same as over here people might give them a second look or nudge the person they are with to see if they have seen the same sight....then later on when away from the situation it is possible it will be brought up....

Edited May 21, 2013 by norrona

[Thongkorn]

Saving Face is a myth, In any other Shape or form in another Country is called Embarasment, you have been caught out and unable to except responsibility for your own actions.

[marioc]

Saving face; no awareness - no thinking - no selfreflection - no empathy - ignorance - no knowledge - no confrontation - no correction -selfinterest - no accountability.

Selfdestruction is the consequence.

Mai pen rai !

The ones around let it all happen. SELFINTEREST !!!!!!!!!

Its all in the family !!

If you can't beat them, join them.

+1

[Jayroo]

Bought a couple of bits in Tesco today, put my stuff on the counter, a lady behind put all her stuff amongst my stuff on the counter, it confused the teller, and me. I had to chuck her stuff out the way.

Yeh it is a confusing conundrum.

I would've taken everything the teller scanned, payed and left. Make her go back and get her stuff again, and yes even if they were tampons.

[mickjn]

Saving Face is a myth, In any other Shape or form in another Country is called Embarasment, you have been caught out and unable to except responsibility for your own actions.

Ditto

[ABCer]

"Saving Face" = Not much of a face to save.

"Thai Culture" = Not much of a culture to show.

"Thainess" = Not much of a national identity.

"Thai Family" = Not much of a family.

"Thai man" = Not much of a man.

"Thai woman" = Not much of a woman.

"Thai Crackdown" = Not much of a crackdown.

"Thai Laws" = Not much of a Law Rule.

"Thai Education" = Not much of an Education.

... you may continue this list...

YET... I do like Thailand; I am NOT a Thai Hater; I am a Cultured and Educated person; I have a National Pride of my own; I do believe in Family; I think I am a Man; I do live with a Woman; I obide by the Laws...

and I would like to see a crackdown on stupid, baseless "Thainess" where the common "Humanity" should be the Norm.

It is high time for Thais to join the Humanity and stop dreaming of their exclusivity.

Edited May 21, 2013 by ABCer

[atyclb]

Bought a couple of bits in Tesco today, put my stuff on the counter, a lady behind put all her stuff amongst my stuff on the counter, it confused the teller, and me. I had to chuck her stuff out the way.

Yeh it is a confusing conundrum.

That happens tio me also. I have tried asking them(in their own language) how the cashier can know where my purchase ends and your begins or just think it is all mine. Usually the person cannot connect the dots to answer.

I have an easier solution for this situation.

I walk away from the counter leaving behind the 3 or 4 items I had put there, then go and get them again and go to a different till.

You lose the time waiting, must redo the time to get the items, then wait on a new queue.

How exactly is your solution easier?

[David48]

Saving Face ... Thailand's Biggest Asset.

All comes down to a matter of perspective.

Not that I particularity agree with either proposition but I do think you have a naïve concept of the principle outlined in your OP.

.

David if you have the time and inclination please explain how you feel the OP has a naive concept of his "face" principle. I'd like to hear your viewpoint.

Mate, thanks for the invite, though I won't return to the argument.

The OP showed some good qualities in the thread when, after was had a strong discussion, instead of upping the ante we agreed to disagree.

I don't wish to end up in something like this.

What the OP has done is actually shown an excellent example of 'Saving Face' in a situation where we both win.

[benalibina]

Saving face; no awareness - no thinking - no selfreflection - no empathy - ignorance - no knowledge - no confrontation - no correction -selfinterest - no accountability.Selfdestruction is the consequence.Mai pen rai !The ones around let it all happen. SELFINTEREST !!!!!!!!!Its all in the family !!If you can't beat them, join them.

you forgot "no hope"

Fear is in the eye of the beholder, hope is as well !!

All this saving face is apparant all over the world.

The lower educated however in the thai culture do not mind to drag along the innocent in their fall. No criticism or correction accepted, it must be their karma. Lack of understanding and knowledge of """""" our civilization of reasoning"""""" can have bad bad consequenses in mixed relationships. I know unfortunately.

Edited May 21, 2013 by benalibina

[seajae]

This is an interesting thread and it hits home. I have felt the same way the OP has and done similar things, my wife has take exception to some of them even though she agrees with my reasoning. After thinking it over I have to agree with her, I have moved here to live so I must accept the thai ways, right or wrong I need to accept what happens. That little phrase that comes out so often, "doesnt matter" is spot on, just because some arse hole lacks any patience or courtesy doesnt mean I have to react to them. I still flip the bird at some of them when I am by myself but nowhere near as much as I used to, I am even thinking of speaking to the local monks about accepting this life better. I love it here, its laid back compared to Australia and I really need to learn to slow down and move at thai pace, not aussie. My wife is a lot more important to me than those idiots that aggravate me so I am seriously trying to learn to be more like the locals(without all their bad habits) and hopefully by not getting too worked up over things I will relax more and not have any stress in my life therefore enjoying it more. Sounds like a lot of bullsh*t but it is the way I have started to think lately, well most of the time anyway but I will still come in here and have a go because most of you bastards arent thai,hahahahahahaha

[atyclb]

"Saving Face" = Not much of a face to save.

"Thai Culture" = Not much of a culture to show.

"Thainess" = Not much of a national identity.

"Thai Family" = Not much of a family.

"Thai man" = Not much of a man.

"Thai woman" = Not much of a woman.

"Thai Crackdown" = Not much of a crackdown.

"Thai Laws" = Not much of a Law Rule.

"Thai Education" = Not much of an Education.

... you may continue this list...

YET... I do like Thailand; I am NOT a Thai Hater; I am a Cultured and Educated person; I have a National Pride of my own; I do believe in Family; I think I am a Man; I do live with a Woman; I obide by the Laws...

and I would like to see a crackdown on stupid, baseless "Thainess" where the common "Humanity" should be the Norm.

It is high time for Thais to join the Humanity and stop dreaming of their exclusivity.

Stop being objective

[DekDaeng]

You say saving face is a "non aggressive behavior"? So when a bus driver crashes a bus because he's drunk or driving erratically and many people die, then he flees the scene because he' "SAVING FACE" That's acceptable behavior?

The 'saving face' is the behaviour of his gutless passengers fully aware of the situation (before crash) and shitting their knickers rather than cause the driver to lose face by questioning (complaining about) his driving.

Driver does not comprehend laws of physics, partic E = 1/2mV2.

Driver running away is just more gutlessness.