Saving Face - Thailands Biggest Problem

[NoshowJones]

A couple of weeks ago in the bank it was my number next by the time they got to it they had let 7 people push in which took over 20 minutes. When they finally decided to show some manners to the 20 people who had the manners to queue I stood up cheered and shouted ' hallelujah praise the lord' which recieved appaulse from some and laughter from others waiting. Unfortunately the bank staff didn't look too happy.

It must have worked as next time I visited the same bank they only let 4 people push in.

I would not have let anyone push in, but I would make my point without any threatening behavior. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think you would need to take on six Thais in a bank, you know what I mean.

[NoshowJones]

Considering some of the ugly mooshes on some Thai visa members, most of their faces are not worth saving.

Give us an example.

[NoshowJones]

So (and correct me if I am wrong), the more people that dont enforce right from wrong, the more backwards this country goes,

Well I can't agree with this. This is Thailand and it is run by Thais, albeit Chinese Thais. This is obviously the way they like it. The economy seems to be OK. So we are not going backwards?

The west is a guilt focused society, Asia is shame focused society. So being reassigned as a government official is shame enough.

My recent thinking about westerners complaining about things being wrong in Thailand is more reflection on the demographics of the westerners now coming here and not that things in Thailand and becoming increasingly wrong or bad.

I have said time and again on this forum, there are lots of things the UK could learn from Thailand. Emigration rules, allowing a vehicle to make a left hand turn on a red light if it is safe to do so. etc.etc. and I still get accused by the odd person of being a Thai basher,

[NoshowJones]

Bought a couple of bits in Tesco today, put my stuff on the counter, a lady behind put all her stuff amongst my stuff on the counter, it confused the teller, and me. I had to chuck her stuff out the way.

Yeh it is a confusing conundrum.

That happens tio me also. I have tried asking them(in their own language) how the cashier can know where my purchase ends and your begins or just think it is all mine. Usually the person cannot connect the dots to answer.

I have an easier solution for this situation.

I walk away from the counter leaving behind the 3 or 4 items I had put there, then go and get them again and go to a different till.

Good idea if you have plenty of time.

[dao16]

I think lines have to be drawn between things you will take and things you won't take. You have to pick your battles.

If I am in a hurry and someone butts in at 7/11, I just block them, subtly, with my back. I just act like I don't realize I am in front of them. (I usually anticipate them coming). Yeah....it is passive aggressive, but I learned to do it well in some Asian countries to the North where this happens more.

If I have time, whatever, I just let them by.

Obviously, driving is another story. I would rather stay 3 dimensional after getting out of some crazy a-hles way.....In that, I think Thais are much better than the road raging people in the US (seriously....it is an insane problem) when it comes to dealing with crazies.

I also find that subtly shaming people works well in other context...it has to be subtle, though....no yelling and all that, but it can be done. Yeah, they lose face, but if you do it right, you will look like you didn't know you were causing them to lose face. Again, though.....these are all crazy mental jiujitsu practices that should only be brought out when someone is really messing with you.....Most stuff, I just let go, cause it doesn't really matter.

Edited July 14, 2013 by dao16

[metisdead]

Inflammatory posts and replies have been removed as well as other nonsense posts.

[Chrisswe]

The main problem for Thai people's is the deep sickness of Jealousness and abnormal Proudness !!

[NBD]

I generally dispense with the label "face" which seems to give it credibility as being an integral part of their culture, and instead call it "childish vanity" which s far as I can tell it is entirely indistinguishable from.

[chrisartist]

The concept of face in Thailand is based on a strong concept of ego, which in turn equates to a strong sense of self, which is contrary to Buddhist thought. Hence, if Thais could just get to grips with their own religion a little better, they might be able to understand the destructive nature of face a little better and take steps towards eliminating it.

[Xonax]

Ive also started to use the second lane down Sukhumvit, simply to avoid getting cut off, having idiots on bikes tearing out from a side street, without looking and so forth.

In the middle lane? Are you suicidal? Driving in the middle lane is the most dangerous! You may be hit by a U-turner, or a bus or taxi suddenly stopping to load / unload passengers, or any vehicle (most often taxis and busses) suddenly changing lane, without checking first if the lane is free.

Why do Thai people always think, that it is ok to enter the BTS trains, before other people can get a chance to get out? Or continue to stand and block the doors, when the train has stopped at the station and opened the doors, so peoplee cannot either get in or out?

Why do Thai people always think, that it is ok to enter a lift / elevator, before people can get a chance to get out? Why do Thai people always think, that it is ok to step into the lift / elevator going down, just to be sure, that there are a space for them for them, when the lift / elevator goes up again (or the other way round)?? I often see Thai people going from fx 2nd floor to groundfloor or basement first, when they actually need to go to 3rd or 4th floor. Doing this will just make the lift / elevator more congested than necessary. Mentioning this to my wife, she just says, that this i normal in Thailand!!!

Edited July 15, 2013 by Xonax

[holymoly]

Friend, I don't know how long you have been in Thailand. It appears to me that you don't understand that "When in Rome, do as the Romans do"

This is their country and they want to live in a certain way which they believe to be polite and proper. My suggestion: learn their ways. If you still

must get mad - and it is you who is getting mad ( about those "idiots") - learn to meditate.

[fire and ice]

You say saving face is a "non aggressive behavior"? So when a bus driver crashes a bus because he's drunk or driving erratically and many people die, then he flees the scene because he' "SAVING FACE" That's acceptable behavior?

No they flee the scene because they are worried someone is about to beat the living daylights out of them for causing the accident.

[jpeg]

I agree with most posters on this issue, however, as with so many things Thai, I believe the concept of face saving has been skewed here in Thailand. Do other Asian races practice this in the same way? I have an Indo friend who's neighbour played ear shattering music (really, I thought it was someone in another room), until he told me it was his Thai neighbour and that if said neighbour acted this way on Bali they'd have rocks thrown through their windows.

I also am sick to death of tip toeing round a fifty year old man for fear of hurting the lying bastard's feelings, when we both know he's lying.

It's not 'face', it's an excuse for self interest and irresponsibility. Another one the Thais have copied from some other Asian culture and made it uniquely their own.

[jpeg]

Saving face in Thailand--When Thais see a farang guy with a totally skanked-out hooker and pretends like they are just a normal couple. Just so the farang guy won't lose face. That's pretty decent of them, don't you think?

What in your opinion would British people do or say if they see a Thai with a totally skanked out hooker?

Wasn't there a thread just recently, asking whether all western tourist think that all Thai girls with farang guys are hookers? You get the evil eye. The shaking of the head. The look of disgust. That sort of thing.

total paranoia there but in general if it is a skanky girl from wherever for sure you are going to get looks and snide comments ....however if that skanky girl and her man are spending money or paying for a service then they will be treated as a normal couple until they leave when the snide comments or gossiping will then start in Thailand or farang land so sorry your original comparison is null and void.....try again

Bearing in mind the Thais are big on appearance, if said girl is inappropriately dressed, bum revealing shorts and tank top I believe they get the 'looks' they deserve.

Fit her out in something Versace/Doce & Gabana in future and don't be a tightwad.

[nosatisfaction]

Imagine this: All governments in Europe declare, that all retirees have to live in a foreign country starting tomorrow. Let's call this country "Xanadu".

In "Xanadu" the "not losing face syndrome" rules daily life. (Including cheating, not telling the truth if it's inconveniant, etc.etc.etc.) AND: The climate corresponds to the average temperature and humidity of a finnish-sauna for 8 months out of the year.

Undoubtedly, a wave of protest and outrage would swamp over Europe = "How can you send us to a Hel*hole like this! ....... "I want to talk to my lawyer" etc etc.

It's good to know, that Farangs living already in "Xanadu" have appearantly no problem with the "not loosing face syndrome" and everything that comes with it.

Of course the statement ......... "they are all just in Xanadu for the cheap pu**y and the cheap booze", must be dismissed as a vicious rumor anyway.

Cheers.

Inhabitants of Xanadu = Xanax = 555555555555555555555555555555555 = LOL = very funny

[nosatisfaction]

A couple of weeks ago in the bank it was my number next by the time they got to it they had let 7 people push in which took over 20 minutes. When they finally decided to show some manners to the 20 people who had the manners to queue I stood up cheered and shouted ' hallelujah praise the lord' which recieved appaulse from some and laughter from others waiting. Unfortunately the bank staff didn't look too happy.

It must have worked as next time I visited the same bank they only let 4 people push in.

I would not have let anyone push in, but I would make my point without any threatening behavior. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think you would need to take on six Thais in a bank, you know what I mean.

Staff didn't laugh because different religion, instead of waiting you can try my approach: Allay Waa? very unpolite but it works, in case my thaiglish is wrongly spelled and for the people whom don't practise any basic Thai it is similar to: WHAT THE F..K.

Be careful when and where to use!!!!!!!!!!!

[GAZZPA]

I share your frustrations. I have been living here and working in Thailand for nearly a year now. I have a few experiences of not fitting in and "upsetting" people before I realised that I am going to have to make a much bigger effort to adapt.

Basically, you cannot apply Western logic to the "face" scenario in Thailand, it just doesn't work. Confronting someone when they have made a mistake or are incompetent does not work as they will lose face, especially in front of other people. People will say nothing, or even lie to avoid this. Passing the buck became a big problem for me and it started to erode accountability, it was becoming a real problem.

I dont claim to be an expert, I am still learning but I do recognise that adapting is the only way or I will likely fail. I have found different ways of getting people to do what I want them to do and so far my change in approach is showing real signs of improvement.

It doesn't really matter whether you agree with it all or not, you can't and won't change a deeply ingrained culture so try and think of things in a different way. I found this website not too long ago,, I don't agree with everything but it does get to the point on quite a few things and I found bits of it very useful.

Just have to remember that you and I are foreigners and we have to accept that and change a little to fit in. imagine if one of the (perceived) incompetent staff worked in an office where you come from, they wouldn't have a hope of changing the way everyone does business, in short if they didn't adapt they would not last. It's the same here, you will change nothing so you have to change.

Good luck, it's a tough one to crack.

http://www.nakedfarang.com/working/losingfaceinbusiness.php

[nosatisfaction]

Ive also started to use the second lane down Sukhumvit, simply to avoid getting cut off, having idiots on bikes tearing out from a side street, without looking and so forth.

In the middle lane? Are you suicidal? Driving in the middle lane is the most dangerous! You may be hit by a U-turner, or a bus or taxi suddenly stopping to load / unload passengers, or any vehicle (most often taxis and busses) suddenly changing lane, without checking first if the lane is free.

Why do Thai people always think, that it is ok to enter the BTS trains, before other people can get a chance to get out? Or continue to stand and block the doors, when the train has stopped at the station and opened the doors, so peoplee cannot either get in or out?

Why do Thai people always think, that it is ok to enter a lift / elevator, before people can get a chance to get out? Why do Thai people always think, that it is ok to step into the lift / elevator going down, just to be sure, that there are a space for them for them, when the lift / elevator goes up again (or the other way round)?? I often see Thai people going from fx 2nd floor to groundfloor or basement first, when they actually need to go to 3rd or 4th floor. Doing this will just make the lift / elevator more congested than necessary. Mentioning this to my wife, she just says, that this i normal in Thailand!!!

the problem with BTS or lift is not at all specifically Thai, it is a worldwide problem of education, people don't know that before something can be added space has to be made for it.

[GAZZPA]

So (and correct me if I am wrong), the more people that dont enforce right from wrong, the more backwards this country goes,

Well I can't agree with this. This is Thailand and it is run by Thais, albeit Chinese Thais. This is obviously the way they like it. The economy seems to be OK. So we are not going backwards?

The west is a guilt focused society, Asia is shame focused society. So being reassigned as a government official is shame enough.

My recent thinking about westerners complaining about things being wrong in Thailand is more reflection on the demographics of the westerners now coming here and not that things in Thailand and becoming increasingly wrong or bad.

I have said time and again on this forum, there are lots of things the UK could learn from Thailand. Emigration rules, allowing a vehicle to make a left hand turn on a red light if it is safe to do so. etc.etc. and I still get accused by the odd person of being a Thai basher,

yes, there are good things in every country that others could learn from, what is your point? This thread is about face, is that something the UK should adopt? Why is it when someone has a decent point to make so may respond with "well there are problems in your country too!" or words to the that effect? Every country has problems and people discuss those too, it makes no sense to me every single time I read one.

[bangkokheat]

saving face, pffft what a joke, its more like out of control egos from adults that mentally havnt grown past the age of 10

[rubberduck]

Many things that are seen as 'saving face' are in fact 'not wanna face the truth' or 'refusing to accept responsibility' situations.

Don't forget that Thais have a genetic problem with accepting responsibility for things they have done, the 'Buddha is responsible' is their 'easy get away with it' solution in many, many cases, hence they will never improve themselves

I remember a woman totally upset after she hit and killed a foreigner, she was crying 'why did this happen to me' in stead of 'oh my gosh I just killed someone' and saw herself as the only victim and totally not interested in the other parties situation. I find it sickening how they always try to get away with it, with small things but especially with big things, it is rooted in the society way too deep and that's really bad.

It all has nothing to do with saving face in the cultural way anymore, just the product of a brainwashing system and religion.

Groups who suffer this less are the hilltribes, and Christians, I learned. They seem the ones who understand and who have developed their brain in a healthy way, hilltribes are not indoctrinated and most Christians learned moral values as dignity selfrespect selfesteem an responsibiliy. Essential elements for a worthy life that many Thai are missing.

Apart from the also many (but way less) people that are different, luckily I know a few of them. The new generations are crooked.

[rubberduck]

saving face, pffft what a joke, its more like out of control egos from adults that mentally havnt grown past the age of 10

Very true indeed.

[GAZZPA]

So (and correct me if I am wrong), the more people that dont enforce right from wrong, the more backwards this country goes,

Well I can't agree with this. This is Thailand and it is run by Thais, albeit Chinese Thais. This is obviously the way they like it. The economy seems to be OK. So we are not going backwards?

The west is a guilt focused society, Asia is shame focused society. So being reassigned as a government official is shame enough.

My recent thinking about westerners complaining about things being wrong in Thailand is more reflection on the demographics of the westerners now coming here and not that things in Thailand and becoming increasingly wrong or bad.

I would like to agree with you... except, the Thais that I speak with actually agree with what I say. They are ashamed of what Thailand is becoming.... Its a huge toilet, because nobody gives a dam_n and instead blame someone or something else.. like the west!

I dont think blaming the west is really called for... Thats too easy!... Thats the Thai way!

Thailand is screwing itself up, by trying to be more than they are.... Its not working as they dont have the education/skills/people to deal with the progress.... but still want the progress regardless....

Im not sure if anyone has noticed, but the world is multicultural these days and some countries like Thailand are fighting to avoid that.... Its mine,mine,mine.. go home dam_n foreigner!

EDIT... I love Thailand and I am making plans to live a tad more remotely with my Thai family and enjoy the original Thai culture and all its beauty... And teach my kids, right from wrong, even if it goes against culture and law.... which is basically... do unto others as you would have them do unto you... (I am not a religious nut.. religion is the biggest shame of society in any country... In my opinion)

Your not a religious nut but you do live by a scripture quoted from the bible? humm.. Western culture is massively influenced by Christianity, including the law. Why does this forum attract so many people who bash religion? Live and let live. Before you made this comment i generally agree with your points about Thailand, it needs to grow up a bit and clean up it's act.

[aechzen]

in our countrys only the politicans can go away like this , so is good to be here , everybody can go away like this . you crow up youe style they crow up ........

[NoshowJones]

So (and correct me if I am wrong), the more people that dont enforce right from wrong, the more backwards this country goes,

Well I can't agree with this. This is Thailand and it is run by Thais, albeit Chinese Thais. This is obviously the way they like it. The economy seems to be OK. So we are not going backwards?

The west is a guilt focused society, Asia is shame focused society. So being reassigned as a government official is shame enough.

My recent thinking about westerners complaining about things being wrong in Thailand is more reflection on the demographics of the westerners now coming here and not that things in Thailand and becoming increasingly wrong or bad.

I have said time and again on this forum, there are lots of things the UK could learn from Thailand. Emigration rules, allowing a vehicle to make a left hand turn on a red light if it is safe to do so. etc.etc. and I still get accused by the odd person of being a Thai basher,

yes, there are good things in every country that others could learn from, what is your point? This thread is about face, is that something the UK should adopt? Why is it when someone has a decent point to make so may respond with "well there are problems in your country too!" or words to the that effect? Every country has problems and people discuss those too, it makes no sense to me every single time I read one.

Yes, every country has problems, I don't know what country you come from, but as I come from the UK, I would say it has to be despised, I can only comment on The UK and Thailand, and I think the UK has a lot more minuses than pluses, and Thailand vice versa. I like giving comments and I like reading other peoples comments, that's what Thai Visa is for, and apart from the very very small minority of people involved with it, I hope it continues for a long time yet.

[Jasun]

It's the people who run around trying to 'give face' to their superiors that perpetuate the cycle and bring the place down IMO.

[movsrus]

Bought a couple of bits in Tesco today, put my stuff on the counter, a lady behind put all her stuff amongst my stuff on the counter, it confused the teller, and me. I had to chuck her stuff out the way.

Yeh it is a confusing conundrum.

I found a solution for this kind of event at Tesco. When someone comes up behind me and starts commingling their goods with mine I just reach up and start putting my goods in with theirs. You will soon see a strange expression on their face as they realize that you are going to leave them with things they didn't want and I have noticed they will quickly begin to separate their goods from mine and gladly replace whatever it was that I placed in with their order. The funniest example of this was when my girlfriend had some tampons in our order and I placed that box in the middle of his beer. The look on his face was priceless.

[rbrooks]

Most of your post is not describing the concept of face but rather that of Ow Dair Jai.

Classic Thai saving face mode, Hit, Run and Hide Jai

[ableguy]

You say saving face is a "non aggressive behavior"? So when a bus driver crashes a bus because he's drunk or driving erratically and many people die, then he flees the scene because he' "SAVING FACE" That's acceptable behavior?

No,,,,,,, usually they flee to avoid a pee drug test, they show up when all traces have gone.

[KarenBravo]

Agree strongly with the thread title.

How can a problem be fixed when it won't even be recognized?