Monks And Money

[fabianfred]

Karma is as natural a law as gravity, but if you choose to dispute it then that is your own lookout...it will still have an effect just as gravity would even if I didn't believe in it.

Even if 99 out of 100 monks are bad and not practicing as they should, to stop supporting them will then cause the one good monk to be unable to survive. We should feel sorry for and have compassion for those who are practicing unwisely, not just turn away from them.

[HeavyDrinker]

Karma is as natural a law as gravity, but if you choose to dispute it then that is your own lookout...it will still have an effect just as gravity would even if I didn't believe in it.

Even if 99 out of 100 monks are bad and not practicing as they should, to stop supporting them will then cause the one good monk to be unable to survive. We should feel sorry for and have compassion for those who are practicing unwisely, not just turn away from them.

Oh Please....

If gravity were as real as Karma, we'd all be floating around....

[HeavyDrinker]

Here is the popular summary of Newton's conclusion about the magnitude of gravitational forces.

Can you post the physical laws for Karma?

Edited May 27, 2013 by HeavyDrinker

[atlbravosfan]

Here is the popular summary of Newton's conclusion about the magnitude of gravitational forces.

Can you post the physical laws for Karma?

This is because that is. This is not because that is not. This is the law of Karma... it's also called 'cause and effect.'

[Kananga]

Karma is as natural a law as gravity, but if you choose to dispute it then that is your own lookout...it will still have an effect just as gravity would even if I didn't believe in it.

Even if 99 out of 100 monks are bad and not practicing as they should, to stop supporting them will then cause the one good monk to be unable to survive. We should feel sorry for and have compassion for those who are practicing unwisely, not just turn away from them.

Karma isn't real. It cannot be measured. There is no proof it exists. It is no more real than the tooth fairy.

If one good monk is unable to survive then I suggest he get off his lazy backside and get a job like the rest of us. If anyone should have compassion it should be the monks for taking food and peddling a load of pointless hocus pocus to the ignorant masses in return.

Edited May 27, 2013 by Kananga

[atlbravosfan]

Fabianfred, I think you're the one with a flawed understanding of how Buddhism works in Thailand...

Not even they take it as literally as you do.

If you think Monks here never ask for anything, you can't have met many.

I'd also love to see where Buddha called Kananga an example of a person of bad influence...I never knew they'd met.

Well, we are talking about real Buddhism, as in the actual teachings of Buddhas. I think most of us are well aware that what Thai Buddhism actually is, is just Brahmanism in disguise.

[Kananga]

I do not say they do not ask...I say they should not ask. I was ordained for two years.

It defies belief that people believe this ridiculous mumbo-jumbo in the 21st century. Oh well. that's two good years you'll never get back.

[Kananga]

Karma is as natural a law as gravity, but if you choose to dispute it then that is your own lookout...it will still have an effect just as gravity would even if I didn't believe in it.

Even if 99 out of 100 monks are bad and not practicing as they should, to stop supporting them will then cause the one good monk to be unable to survive. We should feel sorry for and have compassion for those who are practicing unwisely, not just turn away from them.

Religion 101. Using fear to control people. Its 'my look out' is it? Oooooh. I'm scared.

Oh dear, you've just attempted to use the the first rule of religious control over people. Fear. Didn't work though. I'm no more scared of karma than I am of the bogeyman.

Don't tell me you believe in him too?

Edited May 27, 2013 by Kananga

[atlbravosfan]

My wife used to think it was a necessary part of being 'Thai' to occasionally go to the temple and give food to the monks etc. I begrudgingly went along with it in order to keep the peace, but the last time we went half way through the handing over of food I paid for etc the monk in question whipped out a nice smartphone to take a call. It was at that point that I said enough is enough.

After a few thought invoking conversations with my wife such as 'If they decide of their own free will not to work, surely they could spend some of that time growing their own food for their own consumption instead of 'begging' off hardworking people every morning. I used the trappist monks as an example of a self sufficient spiritual lifestyle. He initial defence of visiting the monks will bring you luck was shot down when I asked how come in Europe where practically zero people practice buddhism the general population was considerably better off than the average Thai. Why are they getting all the luck when the Thais are the ones handing over food and money to these organised beggars? That spun her out for a while but she eventually came round. She has now 'seen the light' so to speak and wont give them the time of day, let alone free food and money.

It will be slower than in the West due to less critical thinking but with the advent of social media etc religion in Thailand will soon start making a slow yet steady decline into the oblivion it should already be in.

Atheists - 1

Religious <deleted> - 0

congratulations..... you are an example of what the Buddha referred to as a person of bad influence. To keep company with a person of bad influence is the most dangerous thing, because they will lead you astray down the wrong path. You have succeeded in leading your wife astray, because of your own lack of understanding about Buddhism.

She, as many Thais, have a shallow and often incorrect understanding too... but she might have learned the truth, until you misdirected her away completely.

I feel sorry for you and the suffering you will receive as a result of the law of karma, which none can avoid.

A monk is forbidden to dig the soil or damage plants...therefore he cannot grow his own food....or even cook uncooked food.

He is only supposed to receive food which is ready to eat. By being completely dependant upon the lay people he should not be lazy about going out on alms-round, to show himself and be an example.

Monks who are too lazy to go on alms-round because lay people bring offering into the temple, often the abbots of the temples are like this, are doing the people a disservice. When receiving his alms-bowl during ordination, a monk is advised that it is his duty to go out on alms-round daily.

He cannot store food and anything left after midday should be given away.

The Thai lay followers who give offerings to monks are doing so out of respect for a one who should be trying to live the homeless life as the Buddha advised, keeping strict precepts, and giving up many of the ordinary pleasures people enjoy.

If the monk is not worthy of this respect because he is not living correctly, that is his own bad karma, and if his actions cause a person to lose respect for the Sangha or even Buddhism as a whole then he is in great danger.

Two points I should mention. I suggested to my wife that instead of blindly giving food and money to people who have cosen to avoid a life where they have to work and be self sufficient she could instead devote any surplus food or money to the many homeless people who are in a desperate situation often through no choice of their own. She now does this because it is the right thing to do, not because of some misplaced self serving effort to 'make merit' or some other self serving selfish action. For the majority of people in the world this change in action would lead one to believe they are actually now following a better path where offerings to people who need them have no self serving agenda and are done out of nothing more than a desire to do some good in the world and help people less fortunate with no expectations of reward.

Secondly, 'karma' is no more real than santa claus. A superstitious belief used to keep people who lack a moral compass in line to do good things because they dont have the strength to do good things without having the fear that bad things will happen to them if they don't.

My wife may have a lack of understanding about 'real buddhism', however you clearly have a lack of understanding of reality and separating fact from fiction. Karma indeed, dear oh dear.

If you think a real monk's life is so easy, I guess you have never actually tried meditation. Just try to sit still and focus your attention on your in-breath and out-breath without becoming distracted. Try to do it for even 5 breaths. Now try ten... now keep going.

You seem to think that Buddhism is somehow not scientific, that it is somehow superstitious. You haven't studied much Buddhism have you? Just seen what people do here in Thailand and assumed this is what Buddhism is?

'Forbidding people to be self sufficient eh? Sounds like the actions of a possessive cult leader to me.' - Again, the purpose of Buddhism is to achieve non-attachment in order to be released from suffering which we make ourselves. The Buddha, by defintion is not attached to anything - not even the concept of an ego-entity. How can one possess what one never had to begin with?

You also must have missed my post earlier where the Buddha discusses superstitions as being against the Way, being impediments to progress along the Path. Again, we can have an educated conversation about Buddhism if you would like, it seems that you have been miseducated and misinformed.

[HeavyDrinker]

If you think a real monk's life is so easy, I guess you have never actually tried meditation. Just try to sit still and focus your attention on your in-breath and out-breath without becoming distracted. Try to do it for even 5 breaths. Now try ten... now keep going.

If you think that's in some way 'hard', try working 12 hours a day, 7 days a week in some grimy factory and barely make enough to support your family as many do here...(only then to feel some misguided spiritual need/social more, to have to give away your hard earned food to monks in the vain hope of an easier ride 'next time around')...

I've read some nonsense on here in the past, but your above post takes the biscuit.

Edited May 27, 2013 by HeavyDrinker

[atlbravosfan]

If you think a real monk's life is so easy, I guess you have never actually tried meditation. Just try to sit still and focus your attention on your in-breath and out-breath without becoming distracted. Try to do it for even 5 breaths. Now try ten... now keep going.

If you think that's in some way 'hard', try working 12 hours a day, 7 days a week in some grimy factory and barely make enough to support your family as many do here...only then to feel some misguided spiritual need/social more, to have to give away your hard earned food to monks in the vain hope of an easier ride 'next time around'...

I've read some nonsense on here in the past, but that takes the biscuit.

Again, I ask the question, have you ever attempted to still your mind? Can you try for just a few breaths and see what it takes?

It is impossible to compare the difficulties from one life to another, but to claim that the life of a monk who is earnestly pursuing the Path is one of luxury and ease reveals someone who has never once attempted to turn the light inward and discover what lies within. I'm sure there are other lives spent living through disease, starvation, war, insane brutalities at home... it is indeed a luxury of some to have the ability to pursue the Path earnestly. It doesn't mean that having such a luxury somehow gives one a luxurious life.

Spend all your time and your life directing your light outward and you will never know the Truth. If we are able to turn the light around, even for a moment, we will be awakened to the Truth, an eternal Truth.

[fabianfred]

Atlsbravosfan... (what does that mean?) ..take my teacher's advice, which i should have too.

Do not try to teach those who are obstinate and refuse to listen...you only waste your breath.

[HeavyDrinker]

Again, I ask the question, have you ever attempted to still your mind?

I do it every night. It's called sleep.

[Kananga]

If you think a real monk's life is so easy, I guess you have never actually tried meditation. Just try to sit still and focus your attention on your in-breath and out-breath without becoming distracted. Try to do it for even 5 breaths. Now try ten... now keep going.

If you think that's in some way 'hard', try working 12 hours a day, 7 days a week in some grimy factory and barely make enough to support your family as many do here...(only then to feel some misguided spiritual need/social more, to have to give away your hard earned food to monks in the vain hope of an easier ride 'next time around')...

I've read some nonsense on here in the past, but your above post takes the biscuit.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

~~~Just seen what people do here in Thailand and assumed this is what Buddhism is?~~~

But thats what we are discussing, what people do here in Thailand. Perhaps you should try some meditation to aid your mental focus?

~~~Again, the purpose of Buddhism is to achieve non-attachment in order to be released from suffering which we make ourselves. The Buddha, by defintion is not attached to anything - not even the concept of an ego-entity. How can one possess what one never had to begin with?~~~

Siddharta Gautama had plenty of possessions before he obtained enlightenmet. Therefore he had them to begin with. Anyway, I dont agree with it. Not having attachment to anything isnt a natural way for human beings to behave. It goes against our very nature and humanity to behave in such a way for one's own goals. Who is one man to decide what is the sufferings of others? Imagine if everyone decided to sit under a bodhi tree all day picking their feet? Who would ensure your internet connection stayed up and running?

Seriously, its all a load of mumbo jumbo. Sure, everyone likes to be in a special club, but don't try and pass it off as anything more than a fictitious hobby.

[Fullstop]

A monk is forbidden to dig the soil or damage plants...therefore he cannot grow his own food....or even cook uncooked food.

Exactly what ARE they good for? Reading horoscopes and scribbling on doorways? For the bulk of them ... I'd assign the title of "Thailands equivalent of dole bludgers" on them.

Can't get a job? ... Become a monk.

Edited May 27, 2013 by Fullstop

[Commander Tamson]

I'm curious as to why all you folks are getting all discombobulated about a religion that it appears most of you don't follow? If you are interested in Buddhism the Buddha's final words might interest you:

"Work out YOUR OWN salvation. Do not depend on others"

Or if you've been brought up in a Christian country:

"Let him who is without sin cast the first stone"

Bit of BS there. The clergy in the UK & US get paid by the church, not from personal donations. My GF, when I told her I was shocked by this news, simply shrugged her shoulders and said - What do you think Buddha thinks of the practise. Bad Gam (karma). They found billions of Baht in the personal account of a Master Monk who recently died. I know however of another Master Monk here in a small village close to Ubon who has been saving to build a proper temple for years but gives all his donations away to the poor in his community. And a nicer, kinder old man you'd fail to meet anywhere.

[Kananga]

Atlsbravosfan... (what does that mean?) ..take my teacher's advice, which i should have too.

Do not try to teach those who are obstinate and refuse to listen...you only waste your breath.

Taught to turn your back on the people who most need guidance were you? Guess its easier to teach the gullible and those who lap it all up without questioning anything.

Your teacher sounds like a real piece of work.

Edited May 27, 2013 by Kananga

[Kananga]

If you think a real monk's life is so easy, I guess you have never actually tried meditation. Just try to sit still and focus your attention on your in-breath and out-breath without becoming distracted. Try to do it for even 5 breaths. Now try ten... now keep going.

If you think that's in some way 'hard', try working 12 hours a day, 7 days a week in some grimy factory and barely make enough to support your family as many do here...only then to feel some misguided spiritual need/social more, to have to give away your hard earned food to monks in the vain hope of an easier ride 'next time around'...

I've read some nonsense on here in the past, but that takes the biscuit.

Spend all your time and your life directing your light outward and you will never know the Truth. If we are able to turn the light around, even for a moment, we will be awakened to the Truth, an eternal Truth.

My light shines brightly, if I turn it round its gonna burn man. An eternal burn.

No seriously, if the light is strong then the rays of a thousand eternities will be granted to you, and you will know the meaning of true peace. A tranquility awaits for those who seek it. One must focus on where to look as it is the one true path among an infinity of dark journies.

See, I can sound just like you too. :-)

[pattayadingo]

At one funeral I went to there were quite a few donations made to the brothers in Saffron robes.

The monks who went to the house for 3 or 4 days were well paid, given donations.

At the temple itself there must have been about 20 monks of all ages from children to old men sat in the lotus position on a raised dias in the main hall. Each of these were given donations. The first doination to each was one of those packs you buy - I do not know their official name. Each were also given flowers. Finally they were given a financial donation.

Added to this were the costs of the Temple for the service and cremation, plus the use of the gilded carriage that bore the deceased around the Temple.

Many monks came and went too. Whether they were given anything but food, I do not know.

But all in all the brothers in Saffron robes did quite well from this particular cremation.

I do not believe that is only the tip of the iceberg.

At a very recent funeral there were 10 monks at the house each day for 5 days. Each monk was given 200 Baht. That is 2000 Baht a day. A total of 10,000 Baht.

Considering this was from an Issan family who do not have wads of dosh but who wanted to make merit for the recently deceased, it shows also how much a monk can make.

Then there are the house blessings, car blessings and so many other scams (apologies for that word) many other opportunities to receive donations.

[Commander Tamson]

There are a lot of reported quotes from Budhha on various posts.

The first [so far] recorded manuscript found about Buddha and his teachings were written approximately 400 years after his death. Where did that author get his information - word of mouth or from previously written manuscripts which have now become lost or destroyed? Regardless, I would be very very wary of pinning my faith on someone whose first recorded words were written 400 years after his death.

Having said that, I still believe that Buddhism is the best of a [very] bad bunch, but only if you choose to follow his [reported] teachings as a guideline as to How to live your own life. And not the absolute need to pander to the huge parasitic army of monks who dominate Thai life, society and culture.

As someone said above, if we all lived the life of Buddha, who would be the essential people needed for a society - like the manacurists, insurance salesman and dog groomers, to name but a few.

[dighambara]

According to my Thai-Neighbors: There are traditional Thai-Temples and "Business-Temples". As to "why and how come" was explained to me, but to quote this here would clearly violate forum rules.

Unfortunately.

Cheers.

Many religious figures from just about every religion tend to do pretty well

How much does a local pay to have a new house blessed ?

How much does a local pay to have a new business blessed ?

How much does a local pay to have a new marriage blessed ?

How much does a local pay to have a new car blessed ?

How much does a local pay to have a new motorbike blessed ?

But it doesn't have any effect and they know it, it's just smart monk(ey)business, and they making a whole lot of money with their 'blessings'

It is forbidden for Monks to carry money. For all purchases, supposedly temple purchases, they must use a male go-between. Likwise, when Monks take their vows, they foreswear all worldy things; Tobacco, Booze, Beer, TV, Women, Automobiles, etc.

However, T.I.T., where people say 'mai ben rai' to obviously phony monks. 'FACE' doesn't even allow somone to openy identify a monk as a fraud.

[sustento]

I'm curious as to why all you folks are getting all discombobulated about a religion that it appears most of you don't follow? If you are interested in Buddhism the Buddha's final words might interest you:

"Work out YOUR OWN salvation. Do not depend on others"

Or if you've been brought up in a Christian country:

"Let him who is without sin cast the first stone"

Bit of BS there. The clergy in the UK & US get paid by the church, not from personal donations. My GF, when I told her I was shocked by this news, simply shrugged her shoulders and said - What do you think Buddha thinks of the practise. Bad Gam (karma). They found billions of Baht in the personal account of a Master Monk who recently died. I know however of another Master Monk here in a small village close to Ubon who has been saving to build a proper temple for years but gives all his donations away to the poor in his community. And a nicer, kinder old man you'd fail to meet anywhere.

My post didn't mention money so I don't understand how you could consider it BS. Your own post demonstrates that there are 'good' monks and 'bad' monks. They're human beings. What else do you expect?

[anon210]

If you think a real monk's life is so easy, I guess you have never actually tried meditation. Just try to sit still and focus your attention on your in-breath and out-breath without becoming distracted. Try to do it for even 5 breaths. Now try ten... now keep going.

If you think that's in some way 'hard', try working 12 hours a day, 7 days a week in some grimy factory and barely make enough to support your family as many do here...(only then to feel some misguided spiritual need/social more, to have to give away your hard earned food to monks in the vain hope of an easier ride 'next time around')...

I've read some nonsense on here in the past, but your above post takes the biscuit.

And guess whom the "monks" in my area (Thonglor) go to racketeer in the morning: the poor street vendors. Here they are so prepotent, that they take and steal what they want, instead of people "giving" them. Never saw them descending on the Mercedes dealership, though! Or any of the fashionable bars, for that matter. Truly, they know whom to frighten.

[khaowong1]

No, monks don't get paid a salary.. we do get a few baht now and then from people who frequent the temples. Monks get some money doing funerals, some money doing blessing of all sorts. But no salary. How he can have approx. 15,000 baht a month is beyond me. When I'm living at my temple in Thailand, I'm lucky to get 800 or 900 baht a month from different people. Right now I'm in the US, will be back to Thailand in July, and even here, I'm lucky to get the equivalent of 8 or 9000 baht a month. He either has a patron who's supporting him or?

[khaowong1]

According to my Thai-Neighbors: There are traditional Thai-Temples and "Business-Temples". As to "why and how come" was explained to me, but to quote this here would clearly violate forum rules.

Unfortunately.

Cheers.

>Many religious figures from just about every religion tend to do pretty well

How much does a local pay to have a new house blessed ?

How much does a local pay to have a new business blessed ?

How much does a local pay to have a new marriage blessed ?

How much does a local pay to have a new car blessed ?

How much does a local pay to have a new motorbike blessed ?

But it doesn't have any effect and they know it, it's just smart monk(ey)business, and they making a whole lot of money with their 'blessings'

It is forbidden for Monks to carry money. For all purchases, supposedly temple purchases, they must use a male go-between. Likwise, when Monks take their vows, they foreswear all worldy things; Tobacco, Booze, Beer, TV, Women, Automobiles, etc.

However, T.I.T., where people say 'mai ben rai' to obviously phony monks. 'FACE' doesn't even allow somone to openy identify a monk as a fraud.

The rules forbidding monks to carry money have pretty much been dropped. Along with tobacco, tv, iphones, ipads, etc, although booze and women are still in effect. But except for the abbots, I've never seen a monk with more than 300 or 400 baht in his pocket at any one time.. most monks I know don't have enough money in their pockets to buy a coke.

[khaowong1]

At one funeral I went to there were quite a few donations made to the brothers in Saffron robes.

The monks who went to the house for 3 or 4 days were well paid, given donations.

At the temple itself there must have been about 20 monks of all ages from children to old men sat in the lotus position on a raised dias in the main hall. Each of these were given donations. The first doination to each was one of those packs you buy - I do not know their official name. Each were also given flowers. Finally they were given a financial donation.

Added to this were the costs of the Temple for the service and cremation, plus the use of the gilded carriage that bore the deceased around the Temple.

Many monks came and went too. Whether they were given anything but food, I do not know.

But all in all the brothers in Saffron robes did quite well from this particular cremation.

I do not believe that is only the tip of the iceberg.

At a very recent funeral there were 10 monks at the house each day for 5 days. Each monk was given 200 Baht. That is 2000 Baht a day. A total of 10,000 Baht.

Considering this was from an Issan family who do not have wads of dosh but who wanted to make merit for the recently deceased, it shows also how much a monk can make.

Then there are the house blessings, car blessings and so many other scams (apologies for that word) many other opportunities to receive donations.

Please don't think that this apply's to all temples. Mostly at temples that have the cremation structures. My temple in Lopburi doesn't have one. In the years that I've been a monk, I think I've been to 4 or 5 funerals, hardly enough to make a decent living I would think. Yes, there are some temples that take advantage (maybe not the proper word) of funerals. But I see the main reason for this, is the people. They seem to think if they don't have these elaborate funerals, their deceased relatives will stick around as ghosts to haunt them. Which is pretty ignorant in my opinion. I've made inquiries of my monk brethern, why the Thai's and other Southeast Asians have funeral ceremonies for 3 days, 5 days, 7 days, and have never recieved a proper answer. I'm normally not invited for more than one day at a funeral because I seem to lack the proper understanding. So be it. In my opinion, you died, your dead, you've gone on, there is no ghosts hanging around, no sense in spending hard earned money for some elaborate funeral just to save face. My attitude is not welcomed at most Thai funerals. I don't care.. it's not the dead I'm trying to save.. It's too late for them.

[khaowong1]

Atlsbravosfan... (what does that mean?) ..take my teacher's advice, which i should have too.

Do not try to teach those who are obstinate and refuse to listen...you only waste your breath.

It's hard to find truer words. I believe both the Buddha and Jesus said the same thing if I'm not mistaken..

[muythai2013]

atlbravosfan is arguing with several people now, arguing with Buddist about what they believe when he is a Buddhist himself.

He is also arguing with non Buddhist and posting Buddhist quotes left right and centre whilst claiming he is not arguing he is having an intellectual conversation.

You take digs at people such as saying "You claim you were a monk,I doubt it" and then claim your not out for an argument, read back through your post, your not posting your counter punching every post you can find as you scroll through looking for opportunities to show your intellect.

What you are doing is preaching to a bunch of members who have no desire to be preached to by an American Buddhist who claims the Thai's have lost the way and American Buddhist's are on track and come on here like your the way.

you also pick pieces out of my post for eg saying you cant carry phones just for suicides, I never once said they did carry them just for that, second time you have posted my apparent thoughts on my behalf despite me not thinking or saying it.

Did you read the Buddhist section about ego, your soul purpose so far if you read back and i'm sure many would agree is an attempt to show your knowledge.

You have hit the temples in The states and your in the excited phase mode that beginners who are not born to it go through, yet to learn how little you know but talking like your journeys complete.

no body can have an intellectual conversation with you like your claiming to want because if you take note you are condescending, it's your way or the highway.

think about that if your ego allows.

[Buckaroo]

Atlsbravosfan... (what does that mean?) ..take my teacher's advice, which i should have too.

Do not try to teach those who are obstinate and refuse to listen...you only waste your breath.

It's hard to find truer words. I believe both the Buddha and Jesus said the same thing if I'm not mistaken..

You believe in two invisible friends. And I thought I was a neanderthal.

[kriswillems]

My family is very closely related to the temple (can't give you the details, but just believe me we know every little detail about the financial situation of the monks and temple). I can only confirm this story. Monks in popular temples in city areas can get up to 15000B or more in donations per month (individual donations, not donations to the temple). Especially blessing cars is good business as you can do several cars a day and one car is 500B to 1000B. Going to house blessing is a bit less lucrative as you can do only one house per day and you typically get 500B (if you're not the head monk).

I love the theory around Buddhism and I think it makes much more sense than my native religion. But looking at the way religion is organised by the people (temples/monks), I feel just as disappointed about it as I feel about my native religion.

I am sure there are also good temples and monks, but where I live it all looks very much like a business.

I think people also underestimate how rich some temples are. It's not unusual for a popular city temple, with about 20 to 30 monks to have 50 million baht on bank-accounts.

Edited May 27, 2013 by kriswillems