Demonstrations And Rallies Leading Up To The Election

[bulmercke]

sushiman and seonai - thanks for the support.

Yes, today it's basically come down to Sondhi versus Thaksin.

Thailand is, indeed, in serious trouble now and unfortunately things are goin' to get a whole lot worse before things improve.

Sorry to be a merchant of doom, but that's how I see things now developing.

Thaksin.....awk pai.......

[seonai]

Thaksin.....awk pai.......

[seonai]

Keep us posted Bulmerke - thanks for that very much.

[bulmercke]

Bangkok voter refuses to cast vote for lacking privacy - The Nation -

A resident of Bangkok's Bueng Kum district went to his station but refused to cast vote after finding that the voting booths provided him no privacy.

The voter, Witthaya Kandee, went to exercise his right at the 57th polling station but he cried foul after seeing that voing booths were arranged in a way that voters could be clearly seen marking the ballots.

Witthaya asked polling officials to rearrange the booths but the officials said the booths were arranged so at the order of the Election Commission.

Witthaya remained at the polling station but refused to cast vote until the voting time expired at 3 pm.

>>>>>>>>>>

What the hel_l's the Election Commission up to?

This practise seems to be nationwide.

[Plus]

Former prime minister Anand Panyarachun Sunday criticised the Election Commission for having set up voting booths in a way that voters could be seen how they cast their ballots.

This year, the booths are placed in a way which voters turn their back to the front of the polling station and anyone observing outside could see how voters mark their ballots. In previous elections, the booths have their back pointed inside the station so no one could see how voters cast their vote.

Anand said the booths allowed people with ill intention to see how ballots were marked which could cause trouble later.

http://nationmultimedia.com/breakingnews/r...newsid=30000748

All these lese majeste charges is just a witchhunt, there's almost certainly no substance to any of them. Take Kom Chad Luek - they misquoted Sondhi and apologised, no one knows what Sondhi has actaully said. The way it was reported in other media it was nothing.

Sonti the General is talking about VCDs - completely different episode. Thousands of people have heard that public speech I suppose, including policemen and TRT observers. Why mention it now and not right after the speech was made?

Or there's another magazine all issues of which have been confiscated on lese majeste grounds. It's December issue, for crissakes. Where have they been all this time?

Perhaps Thaksin is trying to pull both Suchinda and Thanom now. Suchinda because he hopes the military will step in, Thanom because they mobilise crowds to "protect the King" by spreading false information.

I doubt he will be able to see it through this time, though - there's no way people will allow bloodshed or mass arrests. He's doomed if he starts crackdown of any kind.

[ColPyat]

He's doomed if he starts crackdown of any kind.

Not if after a election win with clear majority non-lethal methods are used to disperse demonstrators who were given ample warning to disband.

[ColPyat]

The latest utterings of Chamlong. I wonder though if he ever thought about the possibility that the palace is simply not willing to appoint a Royaly appointed Prime minister, and might not view the attempts to force them doing so with any sort of goodwill. I mean, so far, in all the months since this idea was first publically announced, the palace has not exactly shown any reaction whatsoever towards the appeals of installing this Royaly appointed Prime Minister.

Here it goes:

PAD ignores vote results

Chamlong Srimuang, a decision maker of the People's Alliance for Democracy, said the PAD would not pay attention to the results of the Sunday election.

Chamlong, who cast his vote, said he and other PAD members cast their vote because they simply carried out their duty.

But the PAD saw that the election failed to tackle country's problems at the cause.

"The problem is that Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra has no legitimacy to rule so the PAD will go on rallying until Thaksin resigns and Thailand get a royally-appointed prime minister," Chamlong said.

[sriracha john]

I don't need to bribe anyone... as they are all clear-thinking Thais... they know what's what...

I was just joking with you John... We know that you didn't have to bribe them.. as "they know what's what" or possibly what side their bread is buttered on.

Once all the votes are tallied we will all know the outcome. No use arguing or bragging about something that is out of our hands. Whatever it is, I'll accept the result of the majority, too bad others will not.

two consecutive unsavory remarks regarding the family.... for someone that decries what others say about his wife, you are pretty free on disparaging other people's families.. joking or otherwise, but it's ok. I'm not so thin-skinned.

As for "arguing or bragging", I'm not doing either. I'm just point out the reality to your false assumption that we as farangs have no input on the election. If you don't make false statements, then there won't be retorts....

Good that you accept the results... and that you have no further valid comments regarding what has been discussed.

[sriracha john]

Seems like the Election Commission has instituted more new questionable changes into this election process than 7-11 has outlets:

rubber stamps...

rearranging the look of the ballot...

and now removing the Constitutionally-guranteed right to cast a ballot in private....

Nevermind all the old-standard ways to cheat and commit fraud such as vote-buying and ballot box stuffing... they've added a whole host of new "games" to play....

Peerasak Pattarapitikul, lecturer at Rajabhat Songkhla University, said the change of rules regarding the positioning of the booths could be considered a violation of the Constitution.

"Article 13 states that an election has to be direct and secret. The new positioning of the booths, however, does not allow this and so voting is no longer secret," he said.

- TN

[Thaible]

BREAKING NEWS

Thaksin hints at crackdown - The Bangkok Post -

Prime Minister Thaksin voted on Sunday and then dropped a strong hint that he has seen just about enough mass protests.

He showed up with his three children, and all cast their votes. His wife, Khunying Potjaman, votes in a separate constituency, and also voted on Sunday morning - ironically at the same polling station, and almost at the same time as opposition leader Maj-Gen Chamlong Srimuang.

A main organiser of the People's Alliance for Demcoracy protests, Sondhi Limthongkul, returned from China (see separate story). He told an interviewer for CNN last week that he did not intend to vote, and apparently did not.

That would make him ineligible for all political offices and many duties in the event he and PAD achieve their goal of forcing Mr Thaksin out of office.

But the prime minister, who started his career as a police officer, hinted Sunday that in the post-election period he might be less tolerant of civil disobedience and street protests..

"It's time to bring law and order," Mr Thaksin said to journalists before speeding away from the Bang Plad polling station.

PAD is scheduled to resume public protests on Wednesday in Hat Yai, and then in Bangkok on Friday evening at the Makhawan Bridge, scene of a lengthy street gathering last month. (BP, from agency reports)

>>>>>>>>>

The iron fist emerges from the "velvet glove".

The exact same thing would happen in the U.S. since they went past civil disobedience and broke the law. They are very close to becoming terrorists, blackmailing the general public to cave in to their demands.

There is no way any protestors would ever be allowed to shut down a heart of the business district, such as New York for example, for several days when there are many other alternatives available.

If you do this, it is no longer civil disobedience - it is economic terrorism.

[bulmercke]

Sondhi threatens to sue accusers - The Nation -

Anti-Thaksin campaigner Sondhi Limthongkul Sunday threatened to sue anyone accusing him of lese majeste.

His list of potential targets for defamation litigation includes Army Commander-in-Chief General Sonthi Boonyaratklin and Thai Rak Thai executive Newin Chidchob.

He said he was prepared to clear his name if the authorities charge him with lese majeste, which he said he did not commit.

"I want to remind relevant authorities that they need a court-approved summons in order to activate legal proceedings against me," he said.

He said it was unfair for Gen Sonthi to caution him over his alleged remarks while letting caretaker Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra off the hook for his inappropriate comments relating to the monarch.

Sondhi's lawyer Suwat Apaisal said his client had instructed him to file a defamation lawsuit against Newin on Tuesday.

Newin gave an interview last week accusing Sondhi of lese majeste, Suwat said.

[Orion76]

He's doomed if he starts crackdown of any kind.

Not if after a election win with clear majority non-lethal methods are used to disperse demonstrators who were given ample warning to disband.

Looks like we'll be having extra strong water cannons this Songkran

[bulmercke]

BREAKING NEWS

Thaksin hints at crackdown - The Bangkok Post -

Prime Minister Thaksin voted on Sunday and then dropped a strong hint that he has seen just about enough mass protests.

He showed up with his three children, and all cast their votes. His wife, Khunying Potjaman, votes in a separate constituency, and also voted on Sunday morning - ironically at the same polling station, and almost at the same time as opposition leader Maj-Gen Chamlong Srimuang.

A main organiser of the People's Alliance for Demcoracy protests, Sondhi Limthongkul, returned from China (see separate story). He told an interviewer for CNN last week that he did not intend to vote, and apparently did not.

That would make him ineligible for all political offices and many duties in the event he and PAD achieve their goal of forcing Mr Thaksin out of office.

But the prime minister, who started his career as a police officer, hinted Sunday that in the post-election period he might be less tolerant of civil disobedience and street protests..

"It's time to bring law and order," Mr Thaksin said to journalists before speeding away from the Bang Plad polling station.

PAD is scheduled to resume public protests on Wednesday in Hat Yai, and then in Bangkok on Friday evening at the Makhawan Bridge, scene of a lengthy street gathering last month. (BP, from agency reports)

>>>>>>>>>

The iron fist emerges from the "velvet glove".

The exact same thing would happen in the U.S. since they went past civil disobedience and broke the law. They are very close to becoming terrorists, blackmailing the general public to cave in to their demands.

There is no way any protestors would ever be allowed to shut down a heart of the business district, such as New York for example, for several days when there are many other alternatives available.

If you do this, it is no longer civil disobedience - it is economic terrorism.

>>>>>>>>

Thaible: "......they went past civil disobedience and broke the law."

Then, how come no one got arrested?

And your comparisons to New York are interesting. America is now a fascist police state, although many Americans are still unaware of this fundamental development thanks to the strictly controlled media there.

There are few, if any, alternatives left remaining for anti-Thaksin protesters - such is Thaksin's dominance here now. Both America and Thailand are dictatorships.

Let's hope today's election changes things for the better.

[Plus]

He's doomed if he starts crackdown of any kind.

Not if after a election win with clear majority non-lethal methods are used to disperse demonstrators who were given ample warning to disband.

Dispersing next Friday demonstration with non-lethal methods? Do they actually have those? Has there been a precedent? How are they going to deal with 50,000 people and keep their hands clean?

Sorry, but I don't see it happening.

Clear majority means different things to different people. The country will be divided and clear majority in many areas will be clear minority in others. The next rally is actually in Songkla on Wednesday where TRT will be happy to get 5% - do you think Thaksin would dare to disperse that rally by force? Will he even find enough policemen to do his dirty deeds - they are no fans of him, too.

13 million people voted against him last year. More than 10 mil he got in the 2000 elections. He apparently made quite a few enemies, and it's not counting last year and Shin sale. Those millions of people will not accept any crackdowns - expect only more protests.

Another thought - even in the last elections TRT got only 60% of the vote. Short of 2/3 you need in many countries in serious cases dealing with serious issues. Is it enough to start violent crackdowns?

[Plus]

"......they went past civil disobedience and broke the law."

I though you were talking about mob breaking into Democrat's rally, the physical blockade of The Nation's building and motorcyclists trying to storm Manager's offices.

[bulmercke]

He's doomed if he starts crackdown of any kind.

Not if after a election win with clear majority non-lethal methods are used to disperse demonstrators who were given ample warning to disband.

Dispersing next Friday demonstration with non-lethal methods? Do they actually have those? Has there been a precedent? How are they going to deal with 50,000 people and keep their hands clean?

Sorry, but I don't see it happening.

Clear majority means different things to different people. The country will be divided and clear majority in many areas will be clear minority in others. The next rally is actually in Songkla on Wednesday where TRT will be happy to get 5% - do you think Thaksin would dare to disperse that rally by force? Will he even find enough policemen to do his dirty deeds - they are no fans of him, too.

13 million people voted against him last year. More than 10 mil he got in the 2000 elections. He apparently made quite a few enemies, and it's not counting last year and Shin sale. Those millions of people will not accept any crackdowns - expect only more protests.

Another thought - even in the last elections TRT got only 60% of the vote. Short of 2/3 you need in many countries in serious cases dealing with serious issues. Is it enough to start violent crackdowns?

And these anti-Thaksin protesters, from my own personal experience, are civil, decent and law abiding citizens - teachers - students - professional people - civil servants etc etc. AND they have sympathetic colleagues, friends and relatives.

If anything untoward happened to them next week there would be outrage in all quarters.

Thaksin would be finished.

This is what scares Thaksin most.

[ColPyat]

Dispersing next Friday demonstration with non-lethal methods? Do they actually have those? Has there been a precedent? How are they going to deal with 50,000 people and keep their hands clean?

Yes, they have non lethal methods.

Yes, there are many precedents of demonstrations dispused by non lethal methods in Thailand.

No, i don't know how they will deal with any amount of demonstrators as i am not a security expert. I would doubt though that there will be that many demonstrators staying after the water cannons come out.

[bulmercke]

ColPyat: "Yes, there are many precedents of demonstrations dispused by non lethal methods in Thailand."

What!

Like in 1973, 1976 and 1992?

(Forgot to mention Tak Bai.)

Edited April 2, 2006 by bulmercke

[ColPyat]

ColPyat: "Yes, there are many precedents of demonstrations dispused by non lethal methods in Thailand."

What!

Like in 1973, 1976 and 1992?

(Forgot to mention Tak Bai.)

No, like only recently several EGAT demonstrations (VCDs were available on the Sondhi demonstrations at Lumphini park) , several Forum of the Poor demonstrations, and lots of the regular local demonstrations.

[Bryan in Isaan]

...

And your comparisons to New York are interesting. America is now a fascist police state, although many Americans are still unaware of this fundamental development thanks to the strictly controlled media there.

There are few, if any, alternatives left remaining for anti-Thaksin protesters - such is Thaksin's dominance here now. Both America and Thailand are dictatorships.

Let's hope today's election changes things for the better.

Bull - Relax! Take a break and get some hot cocoa or something.

[jdinasia]

The people that see Farang that LIVE here as having No role and No Bearing on the election ... really shouldn't comment at all ... as it would be a moot point huh? <not telling people not to comment here ... just if they think we have no role or affect ... then why bother?>

But then again ... My "upcountry" extended family ... who all voted TRT the last 2 general elections .... voted no Vote this time as well ... there's a few more votes that Thaksin lost .... (I had directt influence on only one ... and never suggested how to vote ... just discussed democracy--- and have no idea what me being in his life had to do with his decision)

[jdinasia]

BREAKING NEWS

Thaksin hints at crackdown - The Bangkok Post -

Prime Minister Thaksin voted on Sunday and then dropped a strong hint that he has seen just about enough mass protests.

He showed up with his three children, and all cast their votes. His wife, Khunying Potjaman, votes in a separate constituency, and also voted on Sunday morning - ironically at the same polling station, and almost at the same time as opposition leader Maj-Gen Chamlong Srimuang.

A main organiser of the People's Alliance for Demcoracy protests, Sondhi Limthongkul, returned from China (see separate story). He told an interviewer for CNN last week that he did not intend to vote, and apparently did not.

That would make him ineligible for all political offices and many duties in the event he and PAD achieve their goal of forcing Mr Thaksin out of office.

But the prime minister, who started his career as a police officer, hinted Sunday that in the post-election period he might be less tolerant of civil disobedience and street protests..

"It's time to bring law and order," Mr Thaksin said to journalists before speeding away from the Bang Plad polling station.

PAD is scheduled to resume public protests on Wednesday in Hat Yai, and then in Bangkok on Friday evening at the Makhawan Bridge, scene of a lengthy street gathering last month. (BP, from agency reports)

>>>>>>>>>

The iron fist emerges from the "velvet glove".

The exact same thing would happen in the U.S. since they went past civil disobedience and broke the law. They are very close to becoming terrorists, blackmailing the general public to cave in to their demands.

There is no way any protestors would ever be allowed to shut down a heart of the business district, such as New York for example, for several days when there are many other alternatives available.

If you do this, it is no longer civil disobedience - it is economic terrorism.

Apparently you have not seen the news out of the USA over immigration rights etc for Mexicans ..... nor do you have the slightest clue about the definition of "civil disobedience". Not to mention that the actions taken by PAD so far have NOT been civil disobedience and instead just exercises in the right to free association and to protest.

civil disobedience

n.

Refusal to obey civil laws in an effort to induce change in governmental policy or legislation, characterized by the use of passive resistance or other nonviolent means.

[Bryan in Isaan]

If you do this, it is no longer civil disobedience - it is economic terrorism.

Apparently you have not seen the news out of the USA over immigration rights etc for Mexicans ..... nor do you have the slightest clue about the definition of "civil disobedience". Not to mention that the actions taken by PAD so far have NOT been civil disobedience and instead just exercises in the right to free association and to protest.

civil disobedience

n.

Refusal to obey civil laws in an effort to induce change in governmental policy or legislation, characterized by the use of passive resistance or other nonviolent means.

The definition is vague. Isn't there any law here similar to "disturbing the peace"? The PAD camping out in front of Siam Paragon comes awfully close to fitting the above definition and perhaps disturbing the peace or some other similar law. That gathering was wisely discontinued after only about one day(?), maybe for that reason.

[Plus]

There was no "disturbing of peace" in any way at Siam Paragon rally. The decision to hold a rally there wasn't popular, but that didn't make the rally any less peaceful.

Non-lethal methods of dispersing demonstrations - how about Hat Yai's anti gas pipe line protests? No one was killed, but it was very violent with lots of arrests. Then there were Krabi farmers in the papers - lying bareshested, face down in long rows.

Non-lethal, yes, but if they try the same tactics on 50,000 strong crowd, serious violence is guaranteed. Using water cannons will also lead to violence - I doubt they have enough of them to contain so many people.

As for your examples - I thought protesters always dispersed themselves in those cases. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[ColPyat]

There was no "disturbing of peace" in any way at Siam Paragon rally. The decision to hold a rally there wasn't popular, but that didn't make the rally any less peaceful.

Non-lethal methods of dispersing demonstrations - how about Hat Yai's anti gas pipe line protests? No one was killed, but it was very violent with lots of arrests. Then there were Krabi farmers in the papers - lying bareshested, face down in long rows.

Non-lethal, yes, but if they try the same tactics on 50,000 strong crowd, serious violence is guaranteed. Using water cannons will also lead to violence - I doubt they have enough of them to contain so many people.

As for your examples - I thought protesters always dispersed themselves in those cases. Correct me if I'm wrong.

And i haven't seen the palace or anyone else that matters forcing Thaksin to resign after dispursing those demonstrators. Ergo - he got away with it.

Those are basically the points i was making here, regardles of the moral right or wrong:

1) there are precedents of demonstrations being dispursed without using lethal force

2) not using lethal force will not bring anyone out who has the power to force Thaksin to resign

Anything else is pure speculation.

[jdinasia]

[hammered]

There was no "disturbing of peace" in any way at Siam Paragon rally. The decision to hold a rally there wasn't popular, but that didn't make the rally any less peaceful.

Non-lethal methods of dispersing demonstrations - how about Hat Yai's anti gas pipe line protests? No one was killed, but it was very violent with lots of arrests. Then there were Krabi farmers in the papers - lying bareshested, face down in long rows.

Non-lethal, yes, but if they try the same tactics on 50,000 strong crowd, serious violence is guaranteed. Using water cannons will also lead to violence - I doubt they have enough of them to contain so many people.

As for your examples - I thought protesters always dispersed themselves in those cases. Correct me if I'm wrong.

And i haven't seen the palace or anyone else that matters forcing Thaksin to resign after dispursing those demonstrators. Ergo - he got away with it.

Those are basically the points i was making here, regardles of the moral right or wrong:

1) there are precedents of demonstrations being dispursed without using lethal force

2) not using lethal force will not bring anyone out who has the power to force Thaksin to resign

Anything else is pure speculation.

I hate to say this but at this point any use of force will likely lead to an explosion meaning that any of our web discussions on what is non lethal force being purely academic. I just hope nobody tries to use "non lethal force" (sic) to do anything.

[jdinasia]

If you do this, it is no longer civil disobedience - it is economic terrorism.

Apparently you have not seen the news out of the USA over immigration rights etc for Mexicans ..... nor do you have the slightest clue about the definition of "civil disobedience". Not to mention that the actions taken by PAD so far have NOT been civil disobedience and instead just exercises in the right to free association and to protest.

civil disobedience

n.

Refusal to obey civil laws in an effort to induce change in governmental policy or legislation, characterized by the use of passive resistance or other nonviolent means.

The definition is vague. Isn't there any law here similar to "disturbing the peace"? The PAD camping out in front of Siam Paragon comes awfully close to fitting the above definition and perhaps disturbing the peace or some other similar law. That gathering was wisely discontinued after only about one day(?), maybe for that reason.

Bryan ... look above for the definition .... "refusal to obey civil laws to induce ...."

not vague at all ... civil disobedience IS breaking laws .... peaceful protest is only civil disobedience after being given a Lawful order to disperse

[Plus]

Colpyat, do you seriously think that rounding up a hundred landless farmers in Krabi and 50,000 strong crowd of middle class protesters in the middle of Bangkok will bring the same response?

That's the surest way to bring intervention by "higher powers". You hopefully haven't forgotten replay of HM talking to Suchinda and Chamlong a few weeks ago.

Edited April 2, 2006 by Plus

[ColPyat]

Colpyat, do you seriously think that rounding up a hundred landless farmers in Krabi and 50,000 strong crowd of middle class protesters in the middle of Bangkok will bring the same response?

That's the surest way to bring intervention by "higher powers". You hopefully haven't forgotten replay of HM talking to Suchinda and Chamlong a few weeks ago.

Yes, and if you go back many many posts, i believe that i have uttered already the speculation, based on conversations with several of their lesser leaders and personal observations on Saphan Pan Fa during the first march on the paliament, that the aim of the PAD, especially Chamlong's and Sondhi's, is to force down such a solution.

Which, if i may remind you, is somewhat the opposite of being "peaceful" and "democratic". It is forcing your opinions on the majority of the Thai population by means of provocing violence, forcing the palace to intervene, and leading to even more dangerous consequences for Thailand's future.

If that is what you support, if that is what you accept in order to take Thaksin down, then i wonder who is the real problem of present Thailand - Thaksin, or the PAD and allied groups.

Edited April 2, 2006 by ColPyat