Our Second Vv Application.

[brunodog]

We are trying for a visitors visa. This will be our second application.

I will give a brief outline of circumstances.

Pin is 23 we met in Udon when she was working in a hotel. She now owns land signed over from parents (around 9 rai in Udon and Bhan Phu all farming land) in February/March.

She will finish university in April but will not graduate until next year. She is currently not working and without funds in bank.

She has a stamp in passport to say she has been to Laos

I have been to Thailand once since we met in March 2005. We made an unsuccessful application for VV in December 2005 when i stayed in LOS for one month.

I tried to weight the application based on my credentials (ie good salary, degree, house owner etc)

First app’ contained

ท Covering letters

ท Key documents confirming id house ownership

ท Details of accommodation

ท Evidence of contact, around 10 emails, phone statements, calling cards

ท Pin’s certificates from language school (studied at AUA level 4 and 5)

ท Evidence of financial support from me

VV was declined because “you are not genuinely seeking entry as a visitor” and you do not intend to leave” Paragraph 41.

1. Reasons being lack of evidence in eight months since meeting and second visit. I cannot therefore be satisfied that the relationship is as you claim and that a genuine visit is intended.

2. You state that you work with the family business which is a rice farm and that you do not receive any income personally. You are a young, unmarried woman who has never travelled abroad and you have no property and assets of your own. The reasons you have given and the preparations you have made with regard to your proposed visit, when balanced against your personal and economic circumstances, cause me to have doubts as to your intentions and I am therefore not satisfied that you are a genuine visitor for a limited period.

Our first application contained no mention of university (stupid really).

Obviously the application was well presented for the officer.

So now I have looked at the reasons stated for VV being declined, this is why the land has been signed over from her family. She now has the one stamp for Laos in her passport. I have been saving and will be depositing around £1500 into her bank account before the application. As regards the proof of contact the first application showed phone calls on a daily basis, I know the emails are a bit thin, but since coming back to England we have tried to correspond a lot more and now have around 35 emails for next app. The first app was for a 6 week stay. I will not be able to visit Thailand again until Dec because of work.

So there are all the facts now the questions

- How long should we apply for next time?

- Would £1500 be sufficient for a 3-month stay if I can show evidence of around 8k in my bank?

- If Pins bank statements show nothing, nothing, nothing, then a £1500 deposit just before application will this prejudice our application?

- Is it to early to apply again in May?

- I have a feeling that our covering letters were not the best so has anyone any ideas of how to word a good letter?

- What other measures can we take to ensure success?

Any comments suggestion greatly received and I will be more than happy to provide any further details. Thank you in advance.

[the scouser]

- The duration of the stay is your call, but, as a general rule, shorter vists are perceived as being more reasonable; e.g. 6 weeks is more believable than 6 months, but it does depend upon the exact circumstances of the individual application.

- If you are funding the trip then just say so. You don't need to place the equivalent of the anticipated cost in Pin's bank account in order to make it appear as if she is paying. Indeed, if you were to do this, the visa officer might think that you're bolstering her account purely for the purposes of getting a visa.

- Pin can apply again anytime. The circumstances of the application will have to be materially different to the previous one, otherwise it will just be refused on the same grounds. To this end, you can now say that Pin owns some land, but it is always possible that the visa officer might say that it has been placed in her name in order to increase her chances of being issued the visa; i.e. it is self-serving.

- In your letter, you should give a brief description of your situation in the UK and your relationship with Pin. Then address the various criteria of the immigration rules and the issues surrounding the previous refusal. You should state that you have sufficient funds to pay for the visit and that you have adequate accommodation. You then state Pin's reasons for having to return to Thailand at the end of the visit.

Having read the reasons for refusal notice, it is apparent that the visa officer previously portrayed Pin as being a subsistence-farming village hick, whereas, in reality, she is a well educated university girl. He will wonder why Pin's university attendance was not previously mentioned and that issue will have to be addressed, too. To this end, Pin should support her application with confirmation from the university that she has completed her course and that she has to return on a specified date in order to officially graduate. It would aid matters if she also is able to manifest what she intends to do workwise when she returns to Thailand. If she has a job lined up, she should get a letter from her prospective employer. I must admit that, other than having to attend her graduation ceremony, Pin's incentive to return to Thailand does look a little thin.

Cheers,

Scouse.

[brunodog]

I must admit that, other than having to attend her graduation ceremony, Pin's incentive to return to Thailand does look a little thin.

Thankyou for your reply, once again coming to peoples assistance.

I would agree on this point quoted above Scouser. In light of this lack of "reason to return" is it feasable to apply for a different type of visa?

Your point about having a job lined up is good and i will discuss this with Pin and look at the possibilities. But looking through the eyes of an embassy official they may well raise the question why has she previously not arranged this? Does anyone have any further circumstances which embassy officials may consider as "good" reasons to return?

I would like to stay with Pin for some length of time to be certain that we will be able to stay together if married and would be therefore unwilling to commit to marriage just to obtain a visa!

With regards to financial issues the Refusal of entry clearance points to Pin's "economic circumstances" and not my own. Once again I can see your point about Pin obtaining land as being self serving and to some degree an officer would be correct in saying this, but aren't all the steps I am taking self serving?

My concern is to get this application permitted and feel that the visa system whilst being important can force peoples hand in terms of their relationships.

[the scouser]

Yes, it is feasible to apply for other types of visa, but each has their own criteria and I would advise against category shopping, trawling the immigration rules trying to shoehorn Pin into a particular provision. Basically, just apply for the visa befitting the purpose of the travel to the UK: in this case a visit visa. However, I personally do agree with you that those who experience difficulty getting a visit visa can sometimes be pushed into a deeper relationship more quickly than they'd anticipated.

You are correct that many of your actions, and Pin's, could be construed as self-serving in relation to her visa application, but I think the land question is so to a greater extent. The issue here is the timing of the land transfer and, if Pin has any siblings, whether they were allocated a proportion of land, too.

Cheers,

Scouse.

[GU22]

Our first application contained no mention of university (stupid really).

Very! Why on Earth did you say she was a poor rice farmer when in fact she was a university student!? A letter from the university confirming her attendance and the date she was due back would have dealt with the reason to return issue, and, IMO, she would probably have got the visa. It certainly did the trick for my stepson.

Evidence of contact, around 10 emails, phone statements, calling cards

Even with no concrete evidence of return, many people have successfully obtained a visit visa for their girl/boyfriend based entirely on the strength of the relationship. Basically, the ECO has believed the relationship to be genuine, therefore the reason for the visit to be genuine and so has trusted the applicant to return. Mainly because the ECO knows that overstaying will jeopardise any future settlement application.

In you case the ECO did not believe the relationship to be genuine so believed she was seeking entry for some other reason; and who can blame him/her. One visit in 9 months? OK, we can't all afford to fly out every couple of weeks, but only 10 e-mails?! How often did you phone her? Before our marriage and subsequent visa application my wife and I talked on the phone nearly every day, and sent each other 3 or 4 e-mails a week! Not to build up evidence for a visa, but simply because we loved and missed each other.

Follow the advice given by Scouse and she may be lucky this time, but as he says, you have some serious explaining to do.

[brunodog]

One visit in 9 months? OK, we can't all afford to fly out every couple of weeks, but only 10 e-mails?! How often did you phone her? Before our marriage and subsequent visa application my wife and I talked on the phone nearly every day, and sent each other 3 or 4 e-mails a week! Not to build up evidence for a visa, but simply because we loved and missed each other.

Phonecalls averaging around 1 and a half hours a day over first 8 months.

And text msgs in the region of 3 a day combined received and sent.

The only problem i could see in relation to the communication was the lack of emails. Pin can use a computer but as you know it can be very difficult to write good english even if she can speak it.

With the next application phonecalls are averaging at around 2 and a half hours per day since my return. Unfortunately my work to some degree dictates my holidays. Certainly I will be visiting again before December if this application is unsuccesful (I really hope not)

Do you think that it would benefit of detract from the next application to mention about Pins university?

And I would really appreciate any suggestions to strengthen my application if anything comes to mind.

Thanks for your input.

[brunodog]

Forgot to mention that Pin does not have any siblings with regard to the land question. And on an earlier point if Pin was to arrive in the Uk with no funds and is stopped at immigration would they not ask her to turn around and return her to Thailand?

[britmaveric]

Perhaps keeping a log of the phonecalls, sms, and of course the phone cards or bill would be sufficient record one would think.

[brunodog]

Perhaps keeping a log of the phonecalls, sms, and of course the phone cards or bill would be sufficient record one would think.

Thanks again for suggestions. I have kept a record of sms messages since my return to Uk as my phone bills do not show sms msgs received.

I even highlighted all the calls to Thailand through low cost dialling services on my phone bills in the last application, with appropriate numbers highlighted so they would be easy for the officer to spot.

Which is why I cannot understand the visa officer questioning the veracity of our relationship????

[the scouser]

.....if Pin was to arrive in the Uk with no funds and is stopped at immigration would they not ask her to turn around and return her to Thailand?

Pin would already have a visa which gives her a presumption of entry. The IO at the airport could only refuse her entry in limited circumstances, and, even then, she'd have the right of appeal before having to return to Thailand. Notwithstanding this, if funds were to be an issue, the IO would, at the very least, speak to you and give you an opportunity to show that you could support Pin during her stay.

Scouse.

[Rj 81]

Perhaps keeping a log of the phonecalls, sms, and of course the phone cards or bill would be sufficient record one would think.

Thanks again for suggestions. I have kept a record of sms messages since my return to Uk as my phone bills do not show sms msgs received.

I even highlighted all the calls to Thailand through low cost dialling services on my phone bills in the last application, with appropriate numbers highlighted so they would be easy for the officer to spot.

Which is why I cannot understand the visa officer questioning the veracity of our relationship????

You can request an itemised record of all texts plus phone calls made even if your bill does not show them. I am on pay as you go, so I don't receive any itemised bills at all.

I had to write to data protection at Orange and they then send you all your phone records from the previous 6 months.

Edited March 30, 2006 by Rj 81

[dee_jai_maak_maak]

Thanks again for suggestions. I have kept a record of sms messages since my return to Uk as my phone bills do not show sms msgs received.

I even highlighted all the calls to Thailand through low cost dialling services on my phone bills in the last application, with appropriate numbers highlighted so they would be easy for the officer to spot.

Which is why I cannot understand the visa officer questioning the veracity of our relationship????

I have seen no mention of photos in this thread. Do you have any pictures of you and your gf together? If not, get snap-happy on your next visit.

Perahps when you make your next application you could come clean and tell the ECO that you made a bit of a b*lls-up of the first application and you'd like to clarify your gf's background, ie. she's not a simple farm girl, but has a university education. (Let's face it, a lot of us would mess up the application in some way if it wasn't for this forum).

If you don't email much because your gf cannot write English very well, then tell them so. I said as much in my covering letter.

Best of luck.

djmm

[silomfan]

Its not quite clear , but assuming you are using international phonecards to call her everyday , the phone company (their number for customer services will be on the card somewhere) keep itemised records of the number you called , the time and duration of the call for every call made. So as and when you use up each card , keep it and when you have around 10 send photocopies of the cards off to the card company(keep the originals!!) who for a small fee (£5 per 10 cards in my case) will post you sheets of itemised call records with incredible detail on them .

This is very very useful for proving beyond doubt that you are calling the number of times you say you are . I used sheets of these in my application , and whilst they are not in themselves going to get you the visa , it is virtually impossible for an ECO to doubt the genuineness of your application and so removes at least one hurdle. Proving the hated and subjective"reason to return" is of course another thing entirely and this is where you have problems in my opinion

SILOMFAN

[GU22]

Whilst unsatisfactory evidence of contact is mentioned in the refusal notice, don't get wrapped up in improving this and do nothing about the important factor.

It is point 2 which is the real reason for the refusal

2. You state that you work with the family business which is a rice farm and that you do not receive any income personally. You are a young, unmarried woman who has never travelled abroad and you have no property and assets of your own. The reasons you have given and the preparations you have made with regard to your proposed visit, when balanced against your personal and economic circumstances, cause me to have doubts as to your intentions and I am therefore not satisfied that you are a genuine visitor for a limited period.

As I said before, I cannot understand why you presented her as working for no income for her family. Why didn't you tell the truth about her circumstances? Her attendance at university would have dealt with the reason to return issue. It beggars belief that you thought presenting her as a farm girl with no income would give her a better chance! Most people who lie on an application do so to make the situation look better, not worse!

Let's look at it from the ECO's point of view.

Last time she was a poor girl working on the family farm for no wage. She had no money and no land.

This time she has suddenly acquired land and a bank account with £1500 in it. She also says that all along she was a student.

Was she telling the truth then, or is she now?

If you were looking at this situation objectively, with no other knowledge of the applicant or her circumstances, what would you think?

You need to come up with some very convincing explanations to deal with the doubts the ECO is going to have.

[brunodog]

Whilst unsatisfactory evidence of contact is mentioned in the refusal notice, don't get wrapped up in improving this and do nothing about the important factor.

It is point 2 which is the real reason for the refusal. It beggars belief that you thought presenting her as a farm girl with no income would give her a better chance! Most people who lie on an application do so to make the situation look better, not worse!

Let's look at it from the ECO's point of view.

Last time she was a poor girl working on the family farm for no wage. She had no money and no land.

This time she has suddenly acquired land and a bank account with £1500 in it. She also says that all along she was a student.

Was she telling the truth then, or is she now?

If you were looking at this situation objectively, with no other knowledge of the applicant or her circumstances, what would you think?

You need to come up with some very convincing explanations to deal with the doubts the ECO is going to have.

GU22 I would like to explain a little more as regards the University issue on the last visa application.

It is now obvious to me that mentioning Pin's university would have been of great help. The reason Pin is not graduating this year is that unfortunately one of her teachers is giving problems as Pin has not been able to shall we say "lubricate" the process sufficiently.

I in my ignorance was unaware of the importance in the application of Pin's university.

When I arrrived to make the application in December I had to really push Pin into explaining why she was having difficulties.She did not want to tell me on the phone because it would sound like she was asking me for money.

We jointly decided that Pin was not going to gain her degree through improper practices. This has meant that since before Christmas Pin has been trying to get her teacher to mark her outstanding assignments. On at least a dozen occassions she has been to see her teacher. On one particular day the teacher kept Pin waiting for 8 hours and saw everyone except her. As Pin would need confirmation from the university we were unsure how to proceed. Pin has still got this problem with her teacher who has yet again put back her next appointment until 5th of April.

We in no way lied on our application I would like to make that clear. And I am in no way looking towards this forum to assist me in obtaining a VV by nefarious means. I believe the truth is paramount in all circumstances, particularly when this problem is so important to us and our future.

Basically the waters were being muddied by the university issues and incorrectly we did not include it in our application.

I 100% agree with your point on the second reason for refusal, you have clearly raised all of the issues that if I was a Visa officer I would raise.

We have tried to address the reasons for refusal and everything we are trying to do COULD look "self serving" to an officer.

This is the problem we have. I want to make a genuine application in good faith, which is succesful.

I would appreciate if you could offer some suggestions as how to make our application succesful as I am totally aware of the problems ( I spend most of my waking day considering them). Please take this comment in good faith as it is intended .

Silomfan thanks for the info' this could be very useful and I will be contacting the call card company to forward records back to me. Greatly appreciated, every little bit helps

Deejai you have also given me a new perspective as how to approach the covering letter. You are correct we did make a b***s up, I am hoping that it will not prejudice our next app'. We do have plenty of photos and you can rest assured that the officer will have the pleasure of having to look at our holiday snaps in some length in our next app'!!! And subjectivity is a word which is now keeping me awake at nights. I have seen it covered in numerous threads about how any young Thai person would have great difficulty proving reason to return. This leads me beck to one of the earlier points, HOW can we make this succesful without looking like we are just ticking the boxes to get a visa??

[GU22]

I can only suggest that you explain the situation to the ECO in as nuch detail as possible, and include as much documentary evidence of her attendance at university as possible.

If she has any written confirmation of when her graduation ceremony is, include that. But, it is my understanding that Thai universities only have them once a year, even though students can finish their course at various times throughout the year. My step son has finished his course, but his graduation isn't until next January.

As Scouse has already said, if she can get any job offers for when she returns, so much the better.

The reason Pin is not graduating this year is that unfortunately one of her teachers is giving problems as Pin has not been able to shall we say "lubricate" the process sufficiently.

This is certainly not the experience we have had with my step son. No lubrication or tea money required.

[the scouser]

Brunodog,

You wrote:-

I would appreciate if you could offer some suggestions as how to make our application succesful

There is no way of ensuring that an application is bound to succeed. In your girlfriend's situation, the best the 2 of you can do is to address as fully as possible the reasons for the previous refusal. Throughout the process, bear in mind that the applicable legal burden is the balance of probabilities and not beyond reasonable doubt. What this means in practice is that you are not required to prove anything to the visa officer, but, rather, satisfy him that your girlfriend's intentions are as stated. There's no hard and fast rule as to what constitutes the balance of probabilities, but perhaps think in terms of if you were to ask the same question of 10 different people whom you stopped at random, what would be the likely response? Yes, some of your actions might appear to the visa officer to be self-serving, but, in my opinion, better that than not address them at all.

As a starting point, your girlfriend should definitely get a letter from the university confirming for how long she has studied there, her course details, and when she is expected to return (either for graduation, or to resume the course), and you should include a detailed explanation in your covering letter of why her university attendance was not mentioned in the first application. Also provide evidence of how your girlfriend has been funding her studies.

It still remains my belief, though, that your girlfriend is still going to have to show the visa officer that she's got something to come back for, and that can't be manufactured: it's either there or it isn't.

Anyway, all the best.

Scouse.