Hasn't the minimum wage pushed up prices!

[pigeonjake]

Butter.

77b upto 89b today in Big C.

The humanity!

Multinationals just make ,wage rises an excuse to sack workers and put up prices ,it happened when the minimum wage came in Britain ,we lost loads of council contracts and had to let dozens of our workers go .

the council workers were on a decline from when thatcher started the right to buy,, they didnt need as many council workers to maintain the properties,

jake

[1020]

235grm of minced pork 80b in Villa today.

The humanity!

I always buy 2 packs of around 500gr in total when making something like bolonese or chili or whatever, don't think it's ever cost 160b.

How much is 500gr of pork in Kygeranstinistan? I think most pensioners will be moving there in a few years.

[i claudius]

My next door neigbour has just got rid of some of his Thai builders and taken on Cambodians as they are cheaper . ,all my neigbours have Cambodian maids ,i wonder why? could it be they charge less? never

Sweet so they bring in people from another country because they are cheaper with no worrys about the economy and well being of the people who's country they choose to live in. Kinda seems a bit of scum for neighbours. I hope they are not Thai looknig for a cheaper worker.

yes they are Thai , and they do the same as the British are doing using eastern european (cheap) labour

[i claudius]

Butter.

77b upto 89b today in Big C.

The humanity!

Multinationals just make ,wage rises an excuse to sack workers and put up prices ,it happened when the minimum wage came in Britain ,we lost loads of council contracts and had to let dozens of our workers go .

the council workers were on a decline from when thatcher started the right to buy,, they didnt need as many council workers to maintain the properties,

jake

our contracts had nothing in the least to do with maintenance and it was years after Thatchers right to buy ,that old chesnut has long gone ,only dyed in the wool old socialists keep that going ,

[soomak]

The unemployment rate may not be zero but he has a good point that it is close enough to zero to say it's not an issue of getting a job in Thailand that's a problem but perhaps only how much it pays and the conditions.

Agree, there is work if you want to work, and are not an invalid or retarded person.

Just yesterday I was at Sirikit Convention Center and picked up some brochure with a list of open positions:

around 2,000 open positions

I see plenty ofwanted signs wherever I go in bkk.

[soomak]

I posted this elsewhere, but it's worth posting again. Samsung, the world's #1 smart phone company, has a plant in Korat. A lot of people work there and it is the best job they can find based on their education, etc.

Now with the new minimum wage, Vietnam's wages are 1/3 of Thailand's. Samsung just broke ground for a huge US$2 billion dollar manufacturing plant in Vietnam. Who can blame them? They aren't a charity. They are a for-profit company, answerable to their stockholders like you and me. Their sole responsibility is to show a profit for their investors. They exist only to make a profit and that's why we can have a smart phone.

We may not like that concept, but without it there would be no smart phones or a lot of other things that are developed and made for a profit motive. Without the profit motive there would also be no computer on your desk much less an internet connection.

So what is going to happen to this gal I know who works in Korat when Samsung opens its new plant in Vietnam to save money, and no longer needs her?

Yes she got a raise with the new minimum wage, but she thinks prices have gone up to eat into her paycheck, and now she will probably be out of work, lost out to some Vietnamese worker.

How can that be good for Thais?

How can a race to the bottom be good for the Thai's, they were already competing with the Vietnamese before the wage increase.

Before the wage increases, Thailand was more competitive with Vietnam, so I don't get your point. Thailand can price itself out of the market.

A minimum wage is always a bad thing. Good productive, skilled (by their own efforts) employees will always earn at least a livable income.

BUT, the poor young sod with NO job skills is not worth minimum wage to an employer so he goes begging.

Think about this. In many countries, people have to actually PAY to get their job skills. They go to trade school or uni, or they join an organization such as the plumbers or electricians and PAY to take the necessary schooling and pass the necessary tests to become certified. Only then can they make the pay scale of a professional.

There will always be people on the bottom of the ladder, and it is up to them to work to improve themselves. If they are far enough on the bottom, no one will pay them a minimum wage.

BUT if there is no minimum wage, an employer can hire them and train them at a price that makes sense. This employee is paid little, but is that worse than actually paying for schooling? At least the chap gets to work and learn and add some value to himself.

Minimum wages only price people out of the market, whether it means layoffs, lack of a job due to lack of training, or a wholesale move by a big company to Vietnam.

Everyone starts on the bottom unless born rich. Then they either go to uni or trade school, start a business, or do something to add value to themselves, or they stay on the bottom.

You can't force an employer to pay someone a wage that doesn't make the employer a profit.

You got a lot of misconceptions there.

Plenty of people do not produce anything measurable.

In my condo there are 2 security guards - what's their produce? they sit there any register the car numbers, and may do something usefull once every few hours. But security is a standard service of any normal condo in bkk.

There are also two cleaning girls at my condo, which produce clean floors and stairways. How much is that worth?

The same would go to many other service jobs, which in Western countries constitute 70-80% of the economy, while in Thailand its probably 40-50%.

A reasonable society ensures that these people would earn a living wage. It can be through minimum wage, or through union agreements as it's done in Germany and some other European countries.

[theblether]

I posted this elsewhere, but it's worth posting again. Samsung, the world's #1 smart phone company, has a plant in Korat. A lot of people work there and it is the best job they can find based on their education, etc.

Now with the new minimum wage, Vietnam's wages are 1/3 of Thailand's. Samsung just broke ground for a huge US$2 billion dollar manufacturing plant in Vietnam. Who can blame them? They aren't a charity. They are a for-profit company, answerable to their stockholders like you and me. Their sole responsibility is to show a profit for their investors. They exist only to make a profit and that's why we can have a smart phone.

We may not like that concept, but without it there would be no smart phones or a lot of other things that are developed and made for a profit motive. Without the profit motive there would also be no computer on your desk much less an internet connection.

So what is going to happen to this gal I know who works in Korat when Samsung opens its new plant in Vietnam to save money, and no longer needs her?

Yes she got a raise with the new minimum wage, but she thinks prices have gone up to eat into her paycheck, and now she will probably be out of work, lost out to some Vietnamese worker.

How can that be good for Thais?

How can a race to the bottom be good for the Thai's, they were already competing with the Vietnamese before the wage increase.

Before the wage increases, Thailand was more competitive with Vietnam, so I don't get your point. Thailand can price itself out of the market.

A minimum wage is always a bad thing. Good productive, skilled (by their own efforts) employees will always earn at least a livable income.

BUT, the poor young sod with NO job skills is not worth minimum wage to an employer so he goes begging.

Think about this. In many countries, people have to actually PAY to get their job skills. They go to trade school or uni, or they join an organization such as the plumbers or electricians and PAY to take the necessary schooling and pass the necessary tests to become certified. Only then can they make the pay scale of a professional.

There will always be people on the bottom of the ladder, and it is up to them to work to improve themselves. If they are far enough on the bottom, no one will pay them a minimum wage.

BUT if there is no minimum wage, an employer can hire them and train them at a price that makes sense. This employee is paid little, but is that worse than actually paying for schooling? At least the chap gets to work and learn and add some value to himself.

Minimum wages only price people out of the market, whether it means layoffs, lack of a job due to lack of training, or a wholesale move by a big company to Vietnam.

Everyone starts on the bottom unless born rich. Then they either go to uni or trade school, start a business, or do something to add value to themselves, or they stay on the bottom.

You can't force an employer to pay someone a wage that doesn't make the employer a profit.

You got a lot of misconceptions there.

Plenty of people do not produce anything measurable.

In my condo there are 2 security guards - what's their produce? they sit there any register the car numbers, and may do something usefull once every few hours. But security is a standard service of any normal condo in bkk.

There are also two cleaning girls at my condo, which produce clean floors and stairways. How much is that worth?

The same would go to many other service jobs, which in Western countries constitute 70-80% of the economy, while in Thailand its probably 40-50%.

A reasonable society ensures that these people would earn a living wage. It can be through minimum wage, or through union agreements as it's done in Germany and some other European countries.

The German system ( bizarrely I was talking to DR Strange about this last week ) is based upon the management and the workforce working in unison for the greater good.

You can tell by this thread that there are still too many Brits fighting a class war and that's what ultimately destroyed our manufacturing base. There are some horror stories out there.

I suppose the Red Shirts are about the closest to a working man's faction here in Thailand by they are used by the puppeteer. There is a requirement for workers representation but not workers domination. I'm of the opinion that the Germans have it right, and further to that, so does the Bundesbank, which has primary responsibility for the German economy. That prevents politicians from writing cheques that they can't cash, which is a problem worldwide.

edit for spelling.

[thaicbr]

My next door neigbour has just got rid of some of his Thai builders and taken on Cambodians as they are cheaper . ,all my neigbours have Cambodian maids ,i wonder why? could it be they charge less? never

They probably work harder!

Sent from my i-mobile i-STYLE Q6

[thaicbr]

@blether. As I understand it there is no minimum wage in Germany

Sent from my i-mobile i-STYLE Q6

[kennedy]

I went back and read a bunch of much earlier comments. All of the anti union, anti human bullshit is as amusing as it is simple. Especially loved the Pol Pot reference. What most of you know about macro economics couldnt fill a can of Chang.

The world is a hugely complex place now. I find it ironic that so many of us deride workers and yet they still remain the drivers of modern consumer society.

But more than that, ehat you are saying is we dont need (want) you. If you are not x y z and a profit center,you are without worth and value. That is really sad.

As the world moves toward technology and away from.labor nations must endevour to make their populations ready for the challanges. Thailand fails miserably. There will be huge changes ahead and the technology will destroy an entire generation or more before it gets out of the gate. US is failing hard as well.

I love you all - blame the poor people. The least and the weakest among us.

Yes, you love Thailand - more like you love to exploit Thailand.

I probably know more macroeconomics than most since I studied it for 4 years before starting a business (and learning microeconomics that way practically).

No one is saying workers aren't needed or good people. We're against the idea that the economy is a zero sum game, meaning that we don't belive that because some are rich it is because others are poor or that some people earning (much) more means less for those who are 'workers'.

If you look empirically at history, countries which have implemented free market capitalist economies have become richer - for all - than countries which have tried socialist or marxist policies.

Minimum wages and unions are harmful because they crowd out those who are not worth minimum wage. This is simple economics learned in 101 courses.

In China where there are no unions, wages have risen a lot, to the point were production is moving to cheaper countries. Minimum wages and unions were not needed to raise wages.

The troubles facing the poor in Thailand is cultural discrimination against the Isaan population (and others) and a feudal society which is corrupt and nepotist. It is the lack of competition from foreign capitalist companies which maintain these imbalances. A capitalist run company is a company run on merit and not on the color of your skin.

Education and improvement of skill is the only way to earn more. A lot of poor and low income in Thailand have a very self defeating attitude instilled from a young age. They simply dare not believe that they could get the same as others. That has nothing to do with economics but culture and politics - again, not allowing foreign companies to hire talented and hungry locals regardless of 'caste' is what is keeping them poor. And that is just how the elite wants it so they can have their minimum wage maids, guard and motocy drivers.

Fix the cultural problems, not the free market.

A parrot for the Heritage Foundation.

[GuestHouse]

If you look empirically at history, countries which have implemented free market capitalist economies have become richer - for all - than countries which have tried socialist or marxist policies.

You presumably would prefer we don't bring Scandanavia into the discussion.

You will have noticed that the Scandinavian countries rely upon a saturated tax base.

Pray, tell us how you would apply that model to Thailand.

One point at at time 'Bleth.

The Scandinavian countries are examples which completely refute MrHammer's assertion - How they achieve this is not the point under discussion.

If you wish to discuss taxation, why not another thread?!

[sustento]

The unemployment rate may not be zero but he has a good point that it is close enough to zero to say it's not an issue of getting a job in Thailand that's a problem but perhaps only how much it pays and the conditions.

Agree, there is work if you want to work, and are not an invalid or retarded person.

Just yesterday I was at Sirikit Convention Center and picked up some brochure with a list of open positions:

around 2,000 open positions

I see plenty ofwanted signs wherever I go in bkk.

The vast majority of the population of Thailand doesn't live in Bangkok...

[sustento]

My next door neigbour has just got rid of some of his Thai builders and taken on Cambodians as they are cheaper . ,all my neigbours have Cambodian maids ,i wonder why? could it be they charge less? never

They probably work harder!

Sent from my i-mobile i-STYLE Q6

Just like the Polish in the UK?

[1020]

My next door neigbour has just got rid of some of his Thai builders and taken on Cambodians as they are cheaper . ,all my neigbours have Cambodian maids ,i wonder why? could it be they charge less? never

They probably work harder!

Sent from my i-mobile i-STYLE Q6

Just like the Polish in the UK?

Bingo.

They appreciate the wage they can earn so are more dependable and hardworking than a local slaving away for the same money.

[bangkokburning]

I went back and read a bunch of much earlier comments. All of the anti union, anti human bullshit is as amusing as it is simple. Especially loved the Pol Pot reference. What most of you know about macro economics couldnt fill a can of Chang.

The world is a hugely complex place now. I find it ironic that so many of us deride workers and yet they still remain the drivers of modern consumer society.

But more than that, ehat you are saying is we dont need (want) you. If you are not x y z and a profit center,you are without worth and value. That is really sad.

As the world moves toward technology and away from.labor nations must endevour to make their populations ready for the challanges. Thailand fails miserably. There will be huge changes ahead and the technology will destroy an entire generation or more before it gets out of the gate. US is failing hard as well.

I love you all - blame the poor people. The least and the weakest among us.

Yes, you love Thailand - more like you love to exploit Thailand.

I probably know more macroeconomics than most since I studied it for 4 years before starting a business (and learning microeconomics that way practically).

No one is saying workers aren't needed or good people. We're against the idea that the economy is a zero sum game, meaning that we don't belive that because some are rich it is because others are poor or that some people earning (much) more means less for those who are 'workers'.

If you look empirically at history, countries which have implemented free market capitalist economies have become richer - for all - than countries which have tried socialist or marxist policies.

Minimum wages and unions are harmful because they crowd out those who are not worth minimum wage. This is simple economics learned in 101 courses.

In China where there are no unions, wages have risen a lot, to the point were production is moving to cheaper countries. Minimum wages and unions were not needed to raise wages.

The troubles facing the poor in Thailand is cultural discrimination against the Isaan population (and others) and a feudal society which is corrupt and nepotist. It is the lack of competition from foreign capitalist companies which maintain these imbalances. A capitalist run company is a company run on merit and not on the color of your skin.

Education and improvement of skill is the only way to earn more. A lot of poor and low income in Thailand have a very self defeating attitude instilled from a young age. They simply dare not believe that they could get the same as others. That has nothing to do with economics but culture and politics - again, not allowing foreign companies to hire talented and hungry locals regardless of 'caste' is what is keeping them poor. And that is just how the elite wants it so they can have their minimum wage maids, guard and motocy drivers.

Fix the cultural problems, not the free market.

Sigh

I don't disagree with your cultural angle you raised but this is personal prejuidce and this is not going away. It is also a red herring.

I guarantee you that to this day, all the low end workers in BKK are not being paid B15000 a month for 50 hours a week.

[theblether]

If you look empirically at history, countries which have implemented free market capitalist economies have become richer - for all - than countries which have tried socialist or marxist policies.

You presumably would prefer we don't bring Scandanavia into the discussion.

You will have noticed that the Scandinavian countries rely upon a saturated tax base.

Pray, tell us how you would apply that model to Thailand.

One point at at time 'Bleth.

The Scandinavian countries are examples which completely refute MrHammer's assertion - How they achieve this is not the point under discussion.

If you wish to discuss taxation, why not another thread?!

No thanks........and no thanks to imposing the Scandinavian model on Thailand.

Incidentally you brought it up.

Just in case you forgot.