should I keep my US green card or surrender it? need help?

[greencard]

hi all. ok this is very important.

first I lived and worked in Thailand and I liked it.

now I m unemployed and most of the time since 2008 I live in Thailand ,something like 8months a year. life is so cheap that I could live in Thailand forever... but hold on, here more:

last year I won a usa green card through lottery. I m a Swiss citizen and I m 44yo.

a few days ago I went to my bank in Zurich to tell them about my new green card and I asked them to file forms for tax. to my great surprise they told me they will close my account and I should leave ASAP.

all banks in Switzerland are scared and no one want buy auction and obligations or trade with USA citizen as Swiss bank can not deal with fatca. I have around half millions $ which can bring me (when economy is good) over 20'000bucks of interest.

now I discover I have to go to all bank to ask for the w9 form... again I think banks will ask me to leave and I will loose a lot.

I can not find any jobs in USA, and as a green card holder I can not work in Thailand anymore or anywhere in the world. I'm stuck to look in the USA only.

even if I find a job in USA I will make maximum 1500$/month after tax. life in the USA is expensive, you need a car, insurance, fuel, rent,...

then I learned I have to file fbar as well. and I have over 12 or 15 accounts in different countries.

then , I have a grandparent of 101 years old in Switzerland who are financially comfortable with lot of saving. I mean enough for me to live in Thailand forever and not to worry not having a job... i think she has between 2 and 3 millions $ and I think she will make another year, but not sure. she told me last day she is tired and I will soon inherit.

then I learned Obama care will kick in 2014 forcing anyone to pay more and more.

so my big questions now.... should I surrender my green card to the embassy. if I do this Monday. it s less 6 months a year. and I could file and say bye bye to USA tax. I won't need to file anything I guess.

for me it would be a big bye bye to the american dream but a great relief that I don't have to file USA tax and I can be on my own and deal with my banks... and get my normal life again and work where I want. (except USA)

if I keep it, I feel I have to deal for everything and my life will be stuck in the USA, I feel the IRS will suck me all they can and fine me if I do one mistake.

until now I m not happy anymore. it seems to me this green card is not a nice gift and I did a mistake to have applied for it. . I heard than African people even come back to Africa after losing all their saving in USA.

so what should I do now? keep it or surrender it. live the American dream in USA or live in Thailand? .

[terabiter]

You must have won the lottery because so few Swiss citizens would ever want such an "honor".

The odds of a Bangladeshi winning the same are less than being hit by a meteor.

I think you should only keep it if you are willing to live and work in the US long enough to become a citizen, then you are free to live and work wherever you like.

The tax rules and paperwork burden and banks not wanting you as a customer are a pain, but if you don't want to do the above you won't be able to keep it anyway and what is the point?

I think for a Swiss person to want to become and American citizen as well, you should be ambitious to start a business and become rich, just being a wage earner even at a good salary you are much better off living that kind of life in Switzerland - even a poor Swiss is better off than an American at say the 75% percent mark, bottom 3/4 of the population really has to struggle if you add up

health care, accident, income continuity insurance for life

children's education through university

savings for retirement

and count those as "taxes" added to what the US already collects - because these are built into the Swiss safety net.

[MrRealDeal]

You would think such a worldly person with 15 bank accounts in different countries one with half a million dollars in it would have thought about that before he got a green card.

The other part of the story that makes no sense is that while you see ad's on the internet for a green card lottery ..... Their is no such thing

Sorry to tell you but the US doesn't decide who gets a green card with a lottery ! LOL

Nice try but FAIL

[terabiter]

> Their is no such thing

Oh really?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diversity_Immigrant_Visa

https://www.dvlottery.state.gov/

[greencard]

mister LOL... or mister I know all....

it s called diversity visa. before to insult me of a liar, go get some primary school education like to know where Switzerland is.... thai people know what visa lottery is.

and yes I didn't think about this before getting it . u have to be damn lucky to get it.

the

1 chance on 300 maybe and I have played to this game for the last 12 years and got my interview at the usa embassy in bkk.

learn about fatca as well... Google it.

and btw , in Switzerland we have plenty of bank accounts. we can open them in 15 minutes and have nothing on it. In 2 hours I can open 7 bank accounts I bet and still have no money. all you need is a passport as long it s not a us passport.

and to finish, rules have changed in 2 months. banks are kicking out all usa citizen or anything which has connection with usa.

Edited June 28, 2013 by greencard

[iluvbeaches]

The diversity lottery is a smart and establish process. I know one person who won it from a European country.

The point of it is for people who WANT to immigrate to the us. If you don't plan on living and working there then it makes no sense as us RESIDENTS have to declare all taxes in the us regardless of source (and they actually check) along with FBAR and other issues. I could have gotten a green card a while back through my parent but didn't for this exact reason. I'm European and don't want to live there anymore. Give someone else the chance to use the quota and don't suffer the issues yourself.

If your not gonna use it give it up.

[MrRealDeal]

> Their is no such thing

Oh really?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diversity_Immigrant_Visa

https://www.dvlottery.state.gov/

I stand corrected .....

[MrRealDeal]

mister LOL... or mister I know all....

it s called diversity visa. before to insult me of a liar, go get some primary school education like to know where Switzerland is.... thai people know what visa lottery is.

and yes I didn't think about this before getting it . u have to be dam_n lucky to get it.

the

1 chance on 300 maybe and I have played to this game for the last 12 years and got my interview at the usa embassy in bkk.

learn about fatca as well... Google it.

and btw , in Switzerland we have plenty of bank accounts. we can open them in 15 minutes and have nothing on it. In 2 hours I can open 7 bank accounts I bet and still have no money. all you need is a passport as long it s not a us passport.

and to finish, rules have changed in 2 months. banks are kicking out all usa citizen or anything which has connection with usa.

Sorry about that ..... I guess you are right their is such a thing.

[MrRealDeal]

One of the things you need to look at before you decide is how many exemptions you can get ...... Not all your reported income is taxable all the time the US has tax agreements with other counties to avoid double taxation usually an 80,000 USD or so exemption for income before it's taxed so if the Swiss have that your 20K may not be taxable just reportable.

You may not be in as bad a situation as you think aside from the filling out of the forms like FBAR

It really depends on your Entire income if all you have is close to 20K in interest your tax bill would be pretty close to zero with no exemptions other then the usual ones, not including the one I mentioned

Your inheritance is the main consideration , we have an exemption for that to which is close to 3 million last time I looked but it changes with the mood of the government.

Obama care has exemptions for non residents like expats and yourself.

The main thing you need to do is fill out a tax form and see how much you would actually owe and decide from there. It could very well be Zero. I looked and it seems like no tax treaty but the site was very old so look yourself.

Filling out forms is a pain but it doesn't mean you will have to pay Tax.

What is your total income if you don't mind saying ? And someone could give you a rough estimate of the amount of tax you would owe.

[Trembly]

Having a US greencard / US citizenship basically makes you a leper to a great deal of non-US banks due to FATCA.

If you're not going to live in the USA then there is absolutely no point in hanging onto your greencard. Get rid of it before FBAR obligations become a curse on you forever.

Edited June 28, 2013 by Trembly

[Somtamnication]

Drop it! I dropped my US Citizenship 12 years ago and never looked back!!

[longball53098]

Aren't there some residency regulations regarding holding and keeping a green card? Like being in the US for xx months per year. I thought I read that a cardholder must meet these regs or risk losing the card

[CaptHaddock]

Aren't there some residency regulations regarding holding and keeping a green card? Like being in the US for xx months per year. I thought I read that a cardholder must meet these regs or risk losing the card

If a green card holder is outside the US for more than a year he loses the card unless he has applied for and received permission prior to leaving.

[terabiter]

Yes in effect have to live there over six months per year during the time you're qualifying for citizenship. As I pointed out in my original answer all the financial and paperwork details just don't make sense to bother with unless you intend to actually be RESIDENT as that is what it's all about.

OP remember that piddling inheritance will most likely be gone within a few years if you haven't already had much successful experience investing and managing money, you need to come up with a solid plan in advance of receiving it to try to keep that from happening.

There aren't any "safe havens" anymore you can just park it and count on living on the interest.

Better would be active investing, in effect running a business of some sort, but of course that takes even more learning and preparation.

The US is a great place to do that though compared to most others, so factor that into your plans.

[soomak]

You would think such a worldly person with 15 bank accounts in different countries one with half a million dollars in it would have thought about that before he got a green card.

The other part of the story that makes no sense is that while you see ad's on the internet for a green card lottery ..... Their is no such thing

Sorry to tell you but the US doesn't decide who gets a green card with a lottery ! LOL

Nice try but FAIL

there is definitely a green card lottery, it runs every year.

I don't remember the figure, but its in the tens of thousands of green cards a year.

[greencard]

I will not surrender my green card . it s too early for me to take a decision like this. I didn't know all these problems with banks in Europe. and now more problems coming with prism, nsa,...

all I need is to show myself in the usa once a year. yes I risk DHS take my green card and ask me to go home, but so far my home is USA, and my holiday home is Thailand as I m still a tourist with a tourist visa in Thailand and I can not invest anymore money outside of usa due to their new stupid rules.

if they want take my green card and kick me out of USA, they are Welcome... i will be able to go to banks and invest freely.

my interest now will be less 10000$ a year or close of 0$ if bank kick me out, I don't think I have to pay anything. still how do I report this? ... if I present a w9 to my thai bank, I worry they ask me to leave. how it is with thailand.?

USA will lose a lot... probably billions $, many people are surrendering their passport or green card.

I have no problem to file fbar but if I encounter too many problems I will be forced to surrender my green card. it s sad, I want be in order with irs and I see banks treating me like a piece of s... t now. one bank saw the irs tax form and said :

"what is this? no we don't do that here. you must take your money and go away, we stop to work with you! "he waived his hand over the irs form, like if it was a piece of toilet paper... then he gave a call or 2 and told me to leave.... no sorry, nothing... i m just a paria for them...

I ma looking for a bank who can buy obligations and some auction for me. no USA bank. I want keep my money outside of USA In case they kick me out... would be funny... they sold me a green card at the usa embassy in bkk, give me a hard life then kick me out because I can not comply with their regulations.

as for Inheritance tax, first 5.2 millions are not taxed,. so I should be ok... depending of state. I have my adress in California, friend of mine who live there and get my mail when I m not in the USA.

I want keep my green card in case I got a good job. I don't see myself in Thailand forever.

all advice would be welcome. I will need a good person in pattaya to help me to file with irs next year.

[breadbin]

I'd rather live in Swiss than USA

[BngkkB]

I private messaged you.

[vento]

> Their is no such thing

Oh really?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diversity_Immigrant_Visa

https://www.dvlottery.state.gov/

I stand corrected .....

These lottery adds you see are just trying to get money to do the application on your behalf.

[Time Traveller]

With all the reasons listed it sounds like the OP is trying to talk himself out of living in America. Basically your question is very simple. IF you want to live and work in America keep it. If you don't then don't, you still can visit there as a tourist, just not work.

Cost of living may be more expensive - especially in California - but America still has a lot of opportunities. Getting a job does take time, and unless you've lived there for a long time or have a network of business contacts then don't expect to walk into a high paying job like you can in Switzerland. Even many experienced Americans have difficulty in finding higher paying jobs now.

If you don't know what you want to do then why are you in a hurry to make a decision about abandoning your PR status?

Yes the tax reporting requirements are very different and burdensome, but the personal tax rates are comparatively low (maybe not by Swiss standards!) and, for the time being, America still has the most investment opportunities of any country.

On a side note - I note you mentioned FBAR reporting. While I disagree with how America forced other countries to reveal American account holders, remember the reason that they did it. Namely many rich Americans were keeping hidden wealth at those foreign banks. The Swiss banks (and everyother country) are complaining simply because of their own greed, they want to keep the American money (and their own investments within America) without reporting the details of American account holders.

Good luck with whatever decision you make,

Edited June 30, 2013 by Time Traveller

[Time Traveller]

<delete>

Edited June 30, 2013 by Time Traveller

[Time Traveller]

I will not surrender my green card . it s too early for me to take a decision like this. I didn't know all these problems with banks in Europe. and now more problems coming with prism, nsa,...

all I need is to show myself in the usa once a year. yes I risk DHS take my green card and ask me to go home, but so far my home is USA, and my holiday home is Thailand as I m still a tourist with a tourist visa in Thailand and I can not invest anymore money outside of usa due to their new stupid rules.

if they want take my green card and kick me out of USA, they are Welcome... i will be able to go to banks and invest freely.

I ma looking for a bank who can buy obligations and some auction for me. no USA bank. I want keep my money outside of USA In case they kick me out...

You sound a little paranoid. You are a permanent resident, why would they kick you out? Even Non resident aliens own American assets without fear of not getting their money back because of the rule of law there. Unless you have been involved with crimes like drugs, money laundering or have liens against you, then you will always have free access to your own accounts, no matter you live there or not.

Secondly you still can invest outside of America - whoever told you otherwise is lying - you just need to report you investments above the threshold required.

Edited June 30, 2013 by Time Traveller

[SeaVisionBurma]

Moving to Visas and Migration to Other Countries Forum

[JimGant]

a few days ago I went to my bank in Zurich to tell them about my new green card and I asked them to file forms for tax.

Why would you do that? Are they now asking -- even those with Swiss passports, like you -- whether or not you have a residency/citizenship connection other than Switzerland? Otherwise, you're under no obligation to mention your green card. Yes, your Swiss earnings are now subject to US tax. But unless FATCA is further ahead than I thought, Swiss banks aren't filing earnings forms with the US IRS...... And if they don't know you have a US connection (again, sounds like you volunteered, and not that they asked.....), no reason to ask for W9 information. I hope you're not now in some Swiss bankers' data base as a US permanent resident.......and all your existing accounts have become tainted.....

Sure, you're now subject to US taxation on your Swiss earnings (but only to the extent this would exceed Swiss taxes on these earnings). But, the earning info is provided by you on your Form 1040 -- from your own records. Not sure what "I asked them to file forms for tax" is all about.........(?). Yeah, eventually, under FATCA, 1099 equivalents will probably be seen -- if they figure out you have a US connection of interest.

my interest now will be less 10000$ a year or close of 0$ if bank kick me out, I don't think I have to pay anything. still how do I report this? ... if I present a w9 to my thai bank, I worry they ask me to leave. how it is with thailand.?

For 2012, and assuming you're single, your interest income above $9750 would be taxable. This is reported on Form 1040 or 1040A. You're a little late with this, even being overseas. Same with the FBAR. Worst that can happen with non filing is -- they'll take your green card away (which, then, might solve all your problems). And, you won't be able to visit the Grand Canyon forever more.

You can begin filing taxes -- and FBAR -- next year. Missing this year shouldn't cause any problems, as there aren't any data trails to your Swiss interest earnings (unless, maybe, you actually did provide W9 info to your bank(s)......). And, I'd recommend filing the 1040 next year, even if earnings dictate this is not required. Gets you on their records, showing you're not a potential tax evader.

Opening a Thai bank account will NOT require W9 info (yet). Don't use your California address, however. The only connection you want showing is your Swiss connection -- nothing US related (no problem today, but when FATCA is implemented, a US address will indicate a person of interest to the Feds).

I can not find any jobs in USA, and as a green card holder I can not work in Thailand anymore or anywhere in the world. I'm stuck to look in the USA only.

A green card doesn't preclude working outside the US. Just get the appropriate visa in your Swiss passport -- and a Thai work permit.

I m not happy anymore. it seems to me this green card is not a nice gift and I did a mistake to have applied for it.

I will not surrender my green card . it s too early for me to take a decision like this

Yep, a dilemna

Unless the Swiss banks have now categorized you as a person of interest to the US revenuers, I wouldn't worry too much about missing the latest deadline for FBAR and 1040 filing.

So, now you've got some more time to ponder your situation, including when to return to the US to keep your green card alive -- if, indeed, that turns out to be your plan. Just be sure to file next year -- if you decide to remain a permanent resident.

"and now more problems coming with prism, nsa,..."

Not if your shoes -- and underwear -- remain dynamite-free.....

[partington]

The OP is worried about being kicked out of the US because to retain a green card you have to demonstrate what the US immigration authorities reasonably believe to be a serious intent to live permanently in the US.

This means if you stay out of the US for up to six months they can begin to question you about your intentions, (although they may not always). If you stay out of the US for a year or more without applying for re-entry permission from the authorities (there is a form for this on which you state expected dates of leaving and return, and give reasons, e.g. family emergency) you will almost certainly have your permission to enter the country and live permanently on that green card denied when you return.

This necessity is what has led to the largely mythological belief that you can keep your green card active by visiting the US for a day or so each year, which the OP also shares:

all I need is to show myself in the usa once a year. yes I risk DHS take my green card and ask me to go home, but so far my home is USA, and my holiday home is Thailand as I m still a tourist with a tourist visa in Thailand and I can not invest anymore money outside of usa due to their new stupid rules.
if they want take my green card and kick me out of USA, they are Welcome...

Unfortunately this is a myth, and will not guarantee your right to live permanently in the US - if you have a green card you need to show that you intend to, and are, using it as a means of permanent residence. So you simply will not be able to keep your options open as easily as you might think.

If you don't have a huge desire to live and work in the US give up the card. If you do have this desire, focus on life in the US as your goal and make that work first.

The difficulty with banking outside the US if you are a US person, in my opinion, is only going to increase as time goes on, and as the US introduces more and more onerous reporting requirements and restrictions.

However without suggesting you should break any laws, there is no possible way a foreign bank can know you have a green card if you are a citizen of another country, and present them with your country's passport as identification.

[Gumballl]

...

all advice would be welcome.

As a US citizen, I don't want you in my country.

[greencard]

I started to be paranoid when I discovered no one bank wanted me.

first i thought bank will kick me out and I would have to hide money under a mattress.

I understand many were hiding money from fisc and now some guys will be in big problems. some us citizen and banks managers are hiding away from fbi/interpol . this is why my bank asked me to leave, they fear the US department of justice and have asked all USA citizen to leave.

my questions is how I can report the money I make if some of my banks will not release any information or any form to me? ... i can get access to my account and make a copy of my interest as long I don't say to my banks that I have jumped on the bad side of the pond.

some banks will cut internet access as well as saving/current account.

should I write a note to the irs and explain them what s going on? . can I just go to an irs office and explain them? or I just fill the income case on the 1040.

now I see European bank is going to get their revenge by not accepting fatca after the discovering of prism spying on Europe.

relationship between Europe and usa will get worse I think. I see banks saying they were right to not cooperate with the USA, and banks will blame Europe for signing fatca unilateral agreement.

it 's effectively hard to get a job in USA(I heard hundred apply for a mac do job!) . I will stay in Thailand as long the situation doesn't improve in USA. I just need to do a trip to USA once a year to keep my green card . if i don't see anything good for me in the future, I can still decide later what I do or be denied entrance in the USA if custom decides I m not a good USA resident... again, they can take my green card, I will not stop them and I may feel better with less headache.

I will not be part of the rat race again... i don't need .

thanks to jimgand for his comments.... yes I will file for 2013. this is why I m asking questions. I want be clean with irs from beginning, if I wait or hide money, I will have hard time to explain later and I will fear to be questioned at the port of entry. for what I make anyway, not worth. better to declare everything.

Edited June 30, 2013 by greencard

[partington]

. I just need to do a trip to USA once a year to keep my green card.

Please read the post I just made (# 25). Your belief that you can keep a green card alive by one visit to the US a year isn't true. Visit the relevant Homeland Security pages to check if you doubt what I've told you.

About the banking - why don't you simply, as Jim Gant suggests, open up some bank accounts using your Swiss passport only, and don't mention your US connection. These banks will give you written or printable statements of interest and capital as all banks do.

You merely keep these as proof, and write the amounts of interest , dividends etc. by hand into your 1040 tax form. As they are foreign banks that don't issue 1099 statements the IRS will not ask for them. If you are audited you will have the printed statements from the foreign banks to prove the sums you entered on your form are true. Doesn't this solve the problem?

[greencard]

Partington.... thank you. this is what I wanted to know.

gumball u are welcome to kick me out.... report me to the DHS.

I need some fresh air from Thailand...

Edited June 30, 2013 by greencard

[greencard]

btw I showed form 8949 before my bank freaked out....

can I fill this form myself?

I don't think my ex bank will report my name to other bank.

no, 6 months is to get USA citizenship after 5 years. USA is a free country, it s not a jail, they cannot force you to stay in a country. .. i don't want to become a USA citizen . I have already too many problems. usa is now a country where people want leave apparently. sad, no?

my life will be hell if they give me a USA passport. I will refuse it anyway. no freedom, blackmail, prism, investigation? no thank you...

people are now surrendering their USA passport... giving up my green card is just a jump to the USA embassy. pay my yearly tax and bye bye forever... now I keep it, I test you guys, you don't test me... ... piss me off? .. and i m gone. one bad move from usa part, I m Out! one bad question from DHS, and I will be glad to take my return flight to where I come from... Thailand.

and i m not interested to make any business at all In the usa. . I don't like to create business, I know it s hard and risky(lot of new rules every year In Europe and usa) , I prefer to get a salary and that s all , especially in this bad economic climate. seem I m not going to keep very long this green card.... as usa doesn't offer anything interesting anymore.

Edited June 30, 2013 by greencard