Russia's anti-gay laws have teeth -- gay priders assaulted

[Jingthing]

Well, those are the ones who are talking!

If any other ones want to communicate with western opponents of anti-gay oppression in Russia, I'll give them the credit to assume they know how to do that.

[Jingthing]

Obama, the most pro gay rights American president in history, cancels summit with anti-gay Russian dictator Putin.

Interestingly, according to this clip, ONE of the reasons is indeed Putin's vicious scapegoating of gay people.

Obviously not the only reason or the main reason, but still it is important that this problem is being acknowledged.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/posttv/video/onbackground/why-putin-cares-about-obamas-snub/2013/08/07/c7de4f3a-ff8c-11e2-9a3e-916de805f65d_video.html?hpid=z1

Edited August 7, 2013 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

This I like.

A BIG idea.

Championed by STAR TREK star George Takei.

Deny Russia the Olympics!

Bring it to Vancouver instead which has the facilities.

Will they succeed, is it practical?

Doubtful.

But I still like the idea of such a BIG idea because it will now get BIG attention.

http://www.ibtimes.com/george-takei-move-2014-winter-olympics-out-russia-1374805

[LeCharivari]

... Will they succeed, is it practical?...

No.

[Jingthing]

... Will they succeed, is it practical?...

No.

Agreed.

But in my opinion, it's still worth making the NOISE.

[Jingthing]

Since Putin hates "gay propaganda" so much how about "gay propaganda" Russian themed merch?

Items such as Sochi winter olympics graphics with Sochi crossed out replaced by Vancouver.

Sochi graphics mixed with gay identity graphics.

That kind of thing.

Edited August 8, 2013 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

This controversy is heating up much faster and bigger than I had thought it would.

Massive amount of coverage in the U.S. media.

Hollywood is started to get involved.

People are asking questions about how this compares to Hitler's Berlin Olympics and how the world just let Hitler have that propaganda show.

Yeah, Jesse Owens showed up, but overall it was a huge PR success for the fascists.

So if the feeling is the world was too passive then, is passivity justified now knowing that the Putin regime intends to use Sochi as a propaganda show?

Russia has more active Neo-Nazis than any other country in the world.

Inspired and encouraged by dictator Putin's gay scapegoating, there is a movement happening all over Russia (linked to the Neo-Nazis) to trick Russian gays to show up for dates, then violently assault them or worse, then put the videos of these beatings on the net, thus inspiring FEAR into the hearts of gay people all over Russia.

Russia is now playing with the line, the ATHLETES can come and we won't bother anyone.

Nothing about what happens before or after the games or to their OWN gay people.

This is NOT going to be good enough. It's time to put the pressure on even louder and harder against this horrific Russian dictatorship, obviously in political troubles, and USING hatred against gay people to prop up their unworthy regime.

Edited August 9, 2013 by Jingthing

[ToddWeston]

I needed a refresher on boycotting Olympics in history and came across this article from the CBC.

http://www.cbc.ca/m/touch/news/story/2013/08/08/f-olympic-boycotts.html

Whilst I'm believe penalising these fine young athletes isn't the best idea after I read above, the Olympics has certainly been used for such political activism in the past.

You can add Stephen Fry and Arthur Frommer to the list of people speaking out.

Edit: It does make me giggle who they article is quoting....a great Canadian IOC member

who was in the running at one point to be the IOC President, perhaps of he reverted to Richard he would have stood a chance.

Edited August 9, 2013 by ToddWeston

[Jingthing]

It's not clear yet what the best tactics are.

The Russian gay activists seem to be saying BOYCOTT. I might be wrong, but I think they are really only saying, gay people don't go largely because they won't be safe there!

That's not the same as a boycott by countries.

The idea of moving it to Vancouver is interesting and wouldn't punish the athletes, but very remote to actually happen, yes, almost nil.

So I tend to agree some kind of very organized civil disobedience/protest actions at the games might be the smartest plan.

I do think there needs to be more dialogue between the international protesters and the Russian gay activists.

Another tactic might be more pressure on the actual IOC to make a stronger IOC sanctioned cooperation with the protest movement and to push this on the host nation.

Perhaps some way where they make sure that protests are allowed at events, are allowed to be broadcast to the world, and to not LET Putin run the propaganda show without very visible dissent shown.

I think we're now at the early stages of an international discussion both about the gay scapegoating in Russia and it's connection to Sochi, and how Sochi might possibly be exploited to help the gay people of Russia. It's even being commented on at the President Obama level, he will surely be asked directly about this very soon. So now it's got the world's attention, now what? I don't know yet but think this is a great first step stage in the process.

Edited August 9, 2013 by Jingthing

[Scott]

I am not well informed on this issue, but I am generally against a boycott. I do hope that a huge amount of effort is put on The Olympic Committee and do like the suggestion of a different venue if Russia doesn't want to change it's stance.

I don't think we can get Russia to have any respect for, and certainly no liking of gay people, but they could put their biases aside for a brief period of time.

[Jingthing]

I am not well informed on this issue, but I am generally against a boycott. I do hope that a huge amount of effort is put on The Olympic Committee and do like the suggestion of a different venue if Russia doesn't want to change it's stance.

I don't think we can get Russia to have any respect for, and certainly no liking of gay people, but they could put their biases aside for a brief period of time.

I agree for the most part. However, I think there is time now to explore tactics for Sochi that have the POTENTIAL to possibly help combat the Russian treatment of gays AFTER the event. No, I don't know if that is even possible, but I think it's worth it to explore the options. Now international attention is being focused on these issues and that is likely to only increase. However, what positive can come from that and how exactly, I don't know.

Yes, the Putin brand, already soiled, will be dirtied up more by all this. But how can that help? I don't get the feeling he cares much about international perceptions.

Edited August 9, 2013 by Jingthing

[sustento]

Politics isn't a dirty word.

It's the fabric of human life.

Yes OF COURSE fighting for human rights is directly related to politics. Duh.

And no, it is not bloody as simple as that. Russians may have always not liked gays, but why now, why these laws? POLITICS!

"Russians may have always not liked gays, but why now, why these laws?"

Already answered back in post # 41:

"Actually Naam is bloody right. The "problem" in Russia which started the whole series of bans and anti-gay laws WAS gay parades, starting with the 2005/6 Moscow Pride. That doesn't in any way justify the current laws, and whether it was a catalyst, a last straw or an excuse is debatable, but beyond any doubt gay parades was where the problem began."

You may not like the answer, but it is what it is - the previously accepted status quo was changed and the present laws were the result, and that's confirmed by Nikolai Alekseyev, by far Russia's most prominent gay rights campaigner:

"Homosexuality was decriminalized in Russia in 1993. From 1993 to 2005, the topic was mostly out of the political sphere. Gays were not really fighting for their rights for the last decade. Not until 2005, when our organization Gay Russia appeared, did it start to come back on the political agenda.

....We have managed to bring the issue of rights for homosexual people on the political agenda, which was not the case in 2005.

....So in two years we really managed to bring this issue into the political agenda. The Russian President Vladimir Putin for the first time said something on gay issues. This is the biggest achievement."

So before Nikolai kicked off gays in Russia were largely being ignored. Now they're being actively persecuted? What a result!

[Jingthing]

I think you are confused.

Decriminalization is ONE level.

The next level is fighting for equal legal rights and non-discrimination policies, etc.

I think it's fair to assume that gay people were massively disliked in Russia before (based on a recent survey I posted here). In my understanding, Russia has been an extremely homophobic culture for quite some time.

So that was a good thing, no criminalization, but that does not mean there weren't seriously important civil rights issues that Russian gay people deserved to fight for. So gay people are suggesting gay people shouldn't fight for fair treatment in their societies because their MIGHT be a backlash? I think that's outrageous. Would you suggest that about any OTHER minority group?

Again, blaming the persecuted for their persecution is extremely flawed thinking.

In my view, yes, these UPPITY gays fighting for fair social treatment are the HEROES of the gay rights movement internationally. Don't blame them for the actions of persecutors.

Edited August 9, 2013 by Jingthing

[sustento]

I think you are confused.

Decriminalization is ONE level.

The next level is fighting for equal rights and non-discrimination policies, etc.

I think it's fair to assume that gay people were massively disliked in Russia before (based on a recent survey I posted here).

So that was a good thing, no criminiliation, but that does not mean there weren't/aren't seriously important civil rights issues that Russian gay people deserved to fight for.

Again, blaming the persecuted for their persecution is extremely flawed thinking.

I'm not blaming 'the persecuted' - I'm blaming Nikolai Alekseyev. He sounds like a Russian version of Natee Theerarojnapong - another me! me! me! man who's more interested in his own agenda than in the people he's allegedly fighting for.

[Jingthing]

The Russian guy appears to me to be much more substantive. Putin is scapegoating Russian gays. A few people here seem to be scapegoating one Russian activist to blame for that! In my view. equally unfair and outrageous.

Edited August 9, 2013 by Jingthing

[LeCharivari]

Politics isn't a dirty word.

It's the fabric of human life.

Yes OF COURSE fighting for human rights is directly related to politics. Duh.

And no, it is not bloody as simple as that. Russians may have always not liked gays, but why now, why these laws? POLITICS!

"Russians may have always not liked gays, but why now, why these laws?"

Already answered back in post # 41:

"Actually Naam is bloody right. The "problem" in Russia which started the whole series of bans and anti-gay laws WAS gay parades, starting with the 2005/6 Moscow Pride. That doesn't in any way justify the current laws, and whether it was a catalyst, a last straw or an excuse is debatable, but beyond any doubt gay parades was where the problem began."

You may not like the answer, but it is what it is - the previously accepted status quo was changed and the present laws were the result, and that's confirmed by Nikolai Alekseyev, by far Russia's most prominent gay rights campaigner:

"Homosexuality was decriminalized in Russia in 1993. From 1993 to 2005, the topic was mostly out of the political sphere. Gays were not really fighting for their rights for the last decade. Not until 2005, when our organization Gay Russia appeared, did it start to come back on the political agenda.

....We have managed to bring the issue of rights for homosexual people on the political agenda, which was not the case in 2005.

....So in two years we really managed to bring this issue into the political agenda. The Russian President Vladimir Putin for the first time said something on gay issues. This is the biggest achievement."

So before Nikolai kicked off gays in Russia were largely being ignored. Now they're being actively persecuted? What a result!

That's it in a nutshell - and that's based on what HE said, claiming personal credit for "bring(ing) this issue into the political agenda" and to "Russian President Vladimir Putin" ' s attention. That's not only MY view of what happened and who deliberately provoked a reaction, its HIS, and it supported 100% by the timeline of events (Pride Parades/parade bans/same sex marriage stunts/anti-gay laws).

Does that excuse the laws? NO, not in any way.

Does that take any of the "blame" away from those making the laws? NO. Nobody has ever said it does, just as nobody has ever said that "the persecuted" are to blame.

Does it make him in any way responsible for what has happened and the position Russian gays are now in? YES.

He SHOULD have listened to his fellow Russian gay activists who warned against bringing attention to gays at the time before he went ahead and decided to take on the Russian establishment, ALL the Russian political parties, left and right wing) who were against gay rights, and ALL the respected Russian Orthodox religions (Russian Orthodox Christians, Muslims and Jews).

He SHOULD have realised that encouraging foreign gay activists to attend the first Pride march in Moscow in 2006 would have gone down badly.

He SHOULD have seen the reaction to Pride parades and realised that anything more could only make things worse for his fellow Russian gays - at that stage (2007) Putin was ambivalent towards gays. Instead he upped the ante and pressed for gay marriages.

"He SHOULD have been able to predict" what happened - maybe he did and he didn't care about the results for millions of Russian gays, or maybe he genuinely didn't realise what had been all too obvious from the start to his fellow RUSSIAN gay activists who had tried to dissuade him and he paid too much attention to the adulation he was getting from foreign gay activists, particularly in countries where he was given "Hero" status by gay activists.

HE SHOULD HAVE CONSIDERED THE EFFECT HIS ACTIONS WOULD HAVE ON THE MILLIONS OF HIS FELLOW RUSSIAN GAYS.

If he DID consider it and he thought that it was worth THEIR sacrifice to achieve HIS objectives then there is no doubt that he DOES have some responsibility for what's happening in Russia because of his arrogance and selfishness.

If he DIDN'T consider it DESPITE being warned of the consequences by his fellow Russian gay activists and he paid more attention to foreign gay activists who knew they personally wouldn't be suffering as a result, then not only does HE bear some responsibility but so do the foreign gay activists.

[Jingthing]

So I guess that means you think foreigners should shut up at Sochi?

BTW, today's Russian gay activists seem extremely interested in the support of the west.

So this meme that Russian gays aren't interested in western involvement does have the ring of truth to me AT ALL.

Ever heard of SILENCE EQUALS DEATH!?!

Where is the DOCUMENTATION about all this disagreement form other Russian gay activists back in the day? Please show it if it really exists. One person isn't enough. You imply it was overwhelming opposition. I find that extremely hard to believe.

I was involved in the early days of the gay liberation movement in America. Stonewall Days. Harvey Milk days.

Guess what, Virginia?

ALL of the American political parties and ALL of the American "orthodox" religions were against us too back then.

Cute of you to include Jews as if Jews are a significant part of the population in Russia anymore. (Hint: they aren't.)

You've got to start somewhere!

Needless to say I find this demonization of a gay activists as being too UPPITY to be a very reactionary conservative POV. If that's your politics, fine, thanks for sharing dude. No problem. Not all gays think alike, but in my opinion most gay activists the world over are more UPPITY than not, and I think that's how we NEED them to be.

I saw a t-shirt recently:

The Meek Shall Inherit S--t

My sentiments exactly.

Edited August 9, 2013 by Jingthing

[LeCharivari]

(edited) ....So gay people are suggesting gay people shouldn't fight for fair treatment in their societies because their MIGHT be a backlash?

No.

Gay people are suggesting gay people should think about the consequences of their actions before deciding that they know best and putting the few rights that millions of other gay people have at risk.

Gay people are suggesting that nobody has a monopoly on the right and the wrong way to go about getting fair treatment and that they should listen to and respect the views of other gay people before acting on their behalf.

Gay people are suggesting that "international" gay activists and pro-gay politicians should listen to and respect the views of local gay activists and human rights organisations before deciding that they, or one particular individual or group, know best.

Gay people are suggesting that gay people should be responsible for their actions and not be excused for them just because they are gay.

[Jingthing]

The status quo in Russia before was NOT acceptable.

Yes, it is worse now. That's not on the gay people or gay activists. That's on the persecutors.

Things don't always work out. Political activism is a risk, but a necessary risk to move forward.

The people fighting for rights aren't the villains just because of a backlash.

Edited August 9, 2013 by Jingthing

[LeCharivari]

...

BTW, today's Russian gay activists seem extremely interested in the support of the west.

So this meme that Russian gays aren't interested in western involvement does have the ring of truth to me AT ALL.

Really?

A couple of days ago I noted that I was " ... not sure how "leading" or representative these 23 individuals are - looking down the list none of them are from any of the major Russian Gay or Human Rights groups."

You replied, very fairly, that " ... those are the ones who are talking! If any other ones want to communicate with western opponents of anti-gay oppression in Russia, I'll give them the credit to assume they know how to do that."

The Russian LGBT Network HAVE asked for "the support of the west" but ON THEIR TERMS, which do not include ANY of the steps proposed by western "gay rights activists":

“The Russian LGBT Network applauds the actions of individuals and organisations who address the escalating official and societal homophobia in Russia, and we are with them in the commitment to the protection of the rights and freedoms of LGBT people and allies. Numerous initiatives in regards the 2014 Winter Olympics are successfully garnering support worldwide, with the centrepiece of the debate being the pro- / counter-boycott considerations. We would like to join the momentum and share our vision.

“While we value diversity in approaches and welcome all efforts that forward justice and equality, we will contribute the work of the LGBT Network to the promotion of proactive participation in the Games instead of a boycott.

“We believe that calls for the spectators to boycott Sochi, for the Olympians to retreat from competition, and for governments, companies, and national Olympic committees to withdraw from the event risk to transform the powerful potential of the Games in a less powerful gesture that would prevent the rest of the world from joining LGBT people, their families and allies in Russia in solidarity and taking a firm stance against the disgraceful human rights record in this country.

“In retrospect, the record of the Olympic boycotts is not utterly promising in regards the potential to bring a change; look at the 1980 boycott of the Moscow Olympics, the 1984 ‘retaliation’ boycott of the LA Games, or at the 1968 Olympics in Mexico City. What is remembered from 1968 is neither the number nor the names of those who boycotted the Games, but the ‘human rights salute’ by Tommie Smith and John Carlos who rose black-gloved fists and bowed their heads on the victory stand as a sign of resistance to racial injustice and solidarity with everyone who fought for equality and human rights.

“The Olympic Games are a unique and powerful occasion for individuals, organisations, diplomatic missions, and governments to come together and voice, in tune with the Olympic ideals, the ideas of human rights, freedoms, equality and justice – regardless of sexual orientation and gender identity.

“Participation and attendance of the Games in Sochi will not indicate endorsement of injustice and discrimination; they will only if they are silent. We hope to join forces and succeed in raising everyone’s voices for LGBT equality in Russia and elsewhere. We hope that together with those who share this vision, we will succeed in sending the strongest message possible by involving athletes, diplomats, sponsors, and spectators to show up and speak up, proclaiming equality in most compelling ways.”

... and Nikolai agrees with them.

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2013/07/31/russian-lgbt-network-dont-boycott-2014-winter-olympics-boycott-homophobia/

http://www.policymic.com/articles/57379/boycotting-the-sochi-olympics-and-vodka-won-t-save-russian-gays

[LeCharivari]

....

Where is the DOCUMENTATION about all this disagreement form other Russian gay activists back in the day? Please show it if it really exists. One person isn't enough. You imply it was overwhelming opposition. I find that extremely hard to believe.

Well, I don't have any "DOCUMENTATION" - nobody sent me any letters about it.

... I'm happy to take "one person" 's word for it - Nikolai Alekseyev's.

He was quite happy to boast that it was a one man crusade when he started and he's continued to claim that since - or at least up until the end of 2011 when he resigned from all the Russian gay rights groups he had founded and they co-incidentally changed their direction.

Read the interview I gave a link to, or any of his other interviews, or his blog.

[Jingthing]

....

Where is the DOCUMENTATION about all this disagreement form other Russian gay activists back in the day? Please show it if it really exists. One person isn't enough. You imply it was overwhelming opposition. I find that extremely hard to believe.

Well, I don't have any "DOCUMENTATION" - nobody sent me any letters about it.

... I'm happy to take "one person" 's word for it - Nikolai Alekseyev's.

He was quite happy to boast that it was a one man crusade when he started and he's continued to claim that since - or at least up until the end of 2011 when he resigned from all the Russian gay rights groups he had founded and they co-incidentally changed their direction.

Read the interview I gave a link to, or any of his other interviews, or his blog.

I did and I see no logic in the noxious conclusions and wild speculations you draw from that. I feel vindicated. All you've posted is your personally biased overblown anti-gay activist speculation. You have no evidence whatsoever that there was much dissent from OTHER Russian gay activists at the time. I reckon more likely there was massive support for those tactics at the time. There was reason to be hopeful back then. It didn't work out, but it could have.

Dude, in civil rights struggles there are wins and losses. Sometimes there are setbacks, sometimes horrible setbacks like in Russia. That doesn't mean the fight was wrong or that the activists should give up. Putin and his ilk are not going to be in power FOREVER. Things might get worse before they get better, but they will get better someday.

Edited August 9, 2013 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

...

BTW, today's Russian gay activists seem extremely interested in the support of the west.

So this meme that Russian gays aren't interested in western involvement does have the ring of truth to me AT ALL.

Really?

A couple of days ago I noted that I was " ... not sure how "leading" or representative these 23 individuals are - looking down the list none of them are from any of the major Russian Gay or Human Rights groups."

You replied, very fairly, that " ... those are the ones who are talking! If any other ones want to communicate with western opponents of anti-gay oppression in Russia, I'll give them the credit to assume they know how to do that."

The Russian LGBT Network HAVE asked for "the support of the west" but ON THEIR TERMS, which do not include ANY of the steps proposed by western "gay rights activists":

“The Russian LGBT Network applauds the actions of individuals and organisations who address the escalating official and societal homophobia in Russia, and we are with them in the commitment to the protection of the rights and freedoms of LGBT people and allies. Numerous initiatives in regards the 2014 Winter Olympics are successfully garnering support worldwide, with the centrepiece of the debate being the pro- / counter-boycott considerations. We would like to join the momentum and share our vision.

“While we value diversity in approaches and welcome all efforts that forward justice and equality, we will contribute the work of the LGBT Network to the promotion of proactive participation in the Games instead of a boycott.

“We believe that calls for the spectators to boycott Sochi, for the Olympians to retreat from competition, and for governments, companies, and national Olympic committees to withdraw from the event risk to transform the powerful potential of the Games in a less powerful gesture that would prevent the rest of the world from joining LGBT people, their families and allies in Russia in solidarity and taking a firm stance against the disgraceful human rights record in this country.

“In retrospect, the record of the Olympic boycotts is not utterly promising in regards the potential to bring a change; look at the 1980 boycott of the Moscow Olympics, the 1984 ‘retaliation’ boycott of the LA Games, or at the 1968 Olympics in Mexico City. What is remembered from 1968 is neither the number nor the names of those who boycotted the Games, but the ‘human rights salute’ by Tommie Smith and John Carlos who rose black-gloved fists and bowed their heads on the victory stand as a sign of resistance to racial injustice and solidarity with everyone who fought for equality and human rights.

“The Olympic Games are a unique and powerful occasion for individuals, organisations, diplomatic missions, and governments to come together and voice, in tune with the Olympic ideals, the ideas of human rights, freedoms, equality and justice – regardless of sexual orientation and gender identity.

“Participation and attendance of the Games in Sochi will not indicate endorsement of injustice and discrimination; they will only if they are silent. We hope to join forces and succeed in raising everyone’s voices for LGBT equality in Russia and elsewhere. We hope that together with those who share this vision, we will succeed in sending the strongest message possible by involving athletes, diplomats, sponsors, and spectators to show up and speak up, proclaiming equality in most compelling ways.”

... and Nikolai agrees with them.

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2013/07/31/russian-lgbt-network-dont-boycott-2014-winter-olympics-boycott-homophobia/

http://www.policymic.com/articles/57379/boycotting-the-sochi-olympics-and-vodka-won-t-save-russian-gays

OMG. What are you on about?!? They are clearly welcoming international support for their visible protest and actions at the games. I have said multiple times now is the time to raise the issue to high levels internationally and have a dialogue with pro gay rights Russians to work on the best course of action. Duh.

Personally I think it is a bit EARLY to decide on a final course of action for Sochi. There have been different voices from Russia and different international voices and somehow hopefully some kind of reasonable consensus can happen. It's not like there is a president Western gay activists and a president Russian gay activists and they can have a summit. It's going to have to be more messy than that by necessity.

Edited August 9, 2013 by Jingthing

[Simhne]

What is happening in Russia is an outrage and it is not only lgbt activists being victimised by Putin's regime, it is any form of progressive political expression inc Pussy Riot. There are plenty of voices in the country calling for a more open and just society and lgbt activists have always and across continents realised how equality on grounds of sexuality must be part of a wider struggle. This is why lgbt rights in S. Africa are relatively more advanced, because people stood up and made themselves recognised including from within the ANC. Russians shouldn't be stereotyped as dictated to by their church or their history when there are plenty of individuals prepared to oppose what is an oppressive regime.

Peter Tatchell, as usual I find expresses better how vital it is for a strategic approach to tackling homophobia. JT is right to remind us that Silence Equals Death. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/aug/06/book-that-changed-me-peter-tatchell

[LeCharivari]

(edited)....

Cute of you to include Jews as if Jews are a significant part of the population in Russia anymore. (Hint: they aren't.)

.....

That really is uncalled for.

The new Russian blasphemy law singles out four "traditional" Russian religions: Christianity, Islam, Judaism and Buddhism (although they are now widening its scope).

The Russian Orthodox Church, the Grand Mufti and the Chief Rabbi (Berel Lazar) ALL condemned Pride marches* - and the Chief Rabbi is very much a Putin supporter.

It would have been TOTALLY wrong of me to omit Russian Jewry from the religious trio who are supporting Putin and these laws, just as it would have been wrong of me to highlight Russian Jewry.

Before you go on to say anything more in this vein you may be advised to take another look at Nikolai Alekseyev and HIS stance on Jews and the Israeli government (and Harvey Milk) and why the Harvey Milk Foundation, the Jewish Community Relations Council, Congregation Kol-Ami, the National Center for Lesbian Rights, Gays Without Borders, the Alice B. Toklas Democratic Club, Get Equal, Equality California, (and others) ALL WITHDREW THEIR SUPPORT FOR HIM and any organisations he represents before he resigned from the Russian gay rights groups he had founded.

You're backing the wrong horse.

* the Pandito Hambo, Lama Damba Ayusheyev, head of Russia's Buddhist community' made no adverse comments but singling him out would indeed have been a bit too "cute"

[Jingthing]

Get real. The primary religious based political force Putin is milking is the Russian Orthodox Church.

Muslims hate Putin and rightfully so. There are hardly any Jews left there.

Not going to dignify your attempt to make this about Zionism, etc. OFF TOPIC.

Also note the Russian Neo-Nazis who Putin seems to have pumped up with his anti-gay schtick, like to attack pretty much anyone who is not WHITE, and gays of course.

This activist, I didn't say I wanted to marry him. I just don't see the overblown BLAME placed on him just for pushing for gay rights.

Edited August 9, 2013 by Jingthing

[LeCharivari]

The status quo in Russia before was NOT acceptable.

Yes, it is worse now. That's not on the gay people or gay activists. That's on the persecutors.

Things don't always work out. Political activism is a risk, but a necessary risk to move forward.

The people fighting for rights aren't the villains just because of a backlash.

I'll bet the status quo in 2002 was a lot more "acceptable" to millions of gay Russians than it is now.

Nobody's calling "the people fighting for rights" "villians" - just calling ONE MAN incredibly arrogant, egotistical and selfish.

You really are backing the wrong horse - read what he has said and note the number of gay rights groups (including his own) that have turned their backs on him and you may realise how much of a mistake you have made by backing someone just because they are a fellow "gay activist". He doesn't deserve your support.

[LeCharivari]

Get real. The primary religious based political force Putin is milking is the Russian Orthodox Church.

Muslims hate Putin and rightfully so. There are hardly any Jews left there.

Not going to dignify your attempt to make this about Zionism, etc. OFF TOPIC.

Also note the Russian Neo-Nazis who Putin seems to have pumped up with his anti-gay schtick, like to attack pretty much anyone who is not WHITE, and gays of course.

This activist, I didn't say I wanted to marry him. I just don't see the overblown BLAME placed on him just for pushing for gay rights.

I deliberately didn't introduce the "Zionism" card - you did.

If you can't see that you're support is misplaced while all those groups I named above CAN then there is little point in my trying to explain it to you.

[Jingthing]

The status quo in Russia before was NOT acceptable.

Yes, it is worse now. That's not on the gay people or gay activists. That's on the persecutors.

Things don't always work out. Political activism is a risk, but a necessary risk to move forward.

The people fighting for rights aren't the villains just because of a backlash.

I'll bet the status quo in 2002 was a lot more "acceptable" to millions of gay Russians than it is now.

Nobody's calling "the people fighting for rights" "villians" - just calling ONE MAN incredibly arrogant, egotistical and selfish.

You really are backing the wrong horse - read what he has said and note the number of gay rights groups (including his own) that have turned their backs on him and you may realise how much of a mistake you have made by backing someone just because they are a fellow "gay activist". He doesn't deserve your support.

Whether he is an anti-semite or not is an interesting little drama, but in my view very OFF TOPIC to this thread. He defends himself that he is not. I don't particularly care either way. He is primary known as a GAY ACTIVIST and we are discussing him in that context. It's a tangential red herring.

For those that care:

http://thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/is-russian-gay-activist-nikolai-alekseev-anti-semitic/civil-rights/2011/03/02/17754

I am not endorsing everything this man has done or said in his life, personal and private. I am talking about the outrageous accusation of his supposed personal culpability in the oppression of gays in Russia today. I don't buy it.

Things got worse for Russian gays since 2002. Yes, sir. You don't know if that would have happened or not without this one activist. People get scapegoated sometimes. Not all of them have parades first. It's just convenient for dictators to have a scapegoat. Russians ALREADY hated gays. They didn't need any special excuse to make them the focused scapegoat group of these times.

Edited August 9, 2013 by Jingthing

[LeCharivari]

What is happening in Russia is an outrage and it is not only lgbt activists being victimised by Putin's regime, it is any form of progressive political expression inc Pussy Riot. There are plenty of voices in the country calling for a more open and just society and lgbt activists have always and across continents realised how equality on grounds of sexuality must be part of a wider struggle. This is why lgbt rights in S. Africa are relatively more advanced, because people stood up and made themselves recognised including from within the ANC. Russians shouldn't be stereotyped as dictated to by their church or their history when there are plenty of individuals prepared to oppose what is an oppressive regime.

Peter Tatchell, as usual I find expresses better how vital it is for a strategic approach to tackling homophobia. JT is right to remind us that Silence Equals Death. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/aug/06/book-that-changed-me-peter-tatchell

Agreed - but Peter Tatchell and Nikolay Alekseev are very different.

... and I have to be honest, I have never heard of Silence Equals Death.

I was doing other things at the time (1987), but looking it up I can't see the connection.

From a very brief scan I think that campaign was planned to focus attention on the situation of those with AIDS (treatment, safe sex education, etc), it had very broad based support and, above all, their campaign was an "unusual experiment in the politics of participation - a mixture of the shrill and the shrewd" and they "held several soul-searching sessions to discuss its past and plot its future ... Act-Up's weekly meetings are an exercise in creative anarchy. There is no board and no paid staff. Anyone who shows up can vote. ..."

Essentially Act Up seems to be the absolute antithesis of the way Nikolay Alekseyev ran and saw things - there was no "shrewd", just "shrill"; there was no "participation"; and nobody got a "vote".

The entire campaign in Russia is an abject lesson in how NOT to go about change and how much harm the wrong sort of activism can do to the people it purports to support.

http://www.nytimes.com/1990/01/03/nyregion/rude-rash-effective-act-up-shifts-aids-policy.html?pagewanted=4&src=pm