Boeing 777 plane crash-lands at San Francisco airport

[jamhar]

We engineers has a bad joke.

747-400 had only 2 pilots, no flight engineer.

The next model will only on pilot and one dog. If the pilot tries to touch anything, the dogs job is to bite him.

........

[skippybangkok]

I'm sure many have landed at SFO. The first time I did I was sure we were landing in the water. The runway is built on fill out into the bay and all you see is water getting closer and closer until the last few seconds before touchdown, and suddenly there is runway beneath you. It isn't built up high.

For whatever reason, I figured that eventually a plane would come up short and crash on the front edge of that runway or even land in the bay. There are much harder runways to land on such as those surrounded by mountains, but this one still leaves no room for error with the bay.

I'm not speculating on the cause, just describing the approach and landing.

Yep , been there, and had same feeling.

Actually in basic pilot training they warn about over water approaches - no reference points

[BKS22]

I'm sure many have landed at SFO. The first time I did I was sure we were landing in the water. The runway is built on fill out into the bay and all you see is water getting closer and closer until the last few seconds before touchdown, and suddenly there is runway beneath you. It isn't built up high.

For whatever reason, I figured that eventually a plane would come up short and crash on the front edge of that runway or even land in the bay. There are much harder runways to land on such as those surrounded by mountains, but this one still leaves no room for error with the bay.

I'm not speculating on the cause, just describing the approach and landing.

This is exactly what happened!

[BKS22]

Sitting here watching the minute by minute live updates and first hand accounts...it doesn't take a rocket science to see where the error was made in the approach.

Not to mention this forum started hours after the crash already happened.

1. Do they say anything about possible technical error?

2. It would be weird if this forum started before the crash happened.

Humor huh....during this. Jing lor?

I've been watching it live since the tragedy took place. Next!

[Suradit69]

This guy Tweeted after landing. He seems surprisingly calm and the picture looks oddly tranquil.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Early news reporting in such instances can be very unreliable...

But FWIW, Fox News U.S. was reporting this morning that the ILS (Instrument Landing System) system at SFO was down at the time of the crash, and had been scheduled to be down for a two-month period, and that some other kind of colored lighting system on the runway designed to assist pilots when the ILS was out had only been working intermittently.

They also had a former U.S. Navy carrier jet pilot talking about how pilots can have a difficult time judging depth perception for landings when flying over bodies of water. SFO Airport is right on the edge of the bay, and the planes coming in for landing travel over water until hitting reaching the runway right at the edge of the water.

[Tywais]

Eyewitness sitting in another aircraft watched it touching down. Indicates it may have been too fast or attempting the landing too early and tried to bleed off speed by pitching the nose up at which point the tail hit the ground and came off and aircraft went into a slide. Again, eyewitness and reporter for air accidents speculation.

[willyumiii]

I'm a native San Franciscan.

I have flown this route, this airline and this aircraft a few times in the past.

I have nothing but praise for the airline.

I will fly this airline, route and aircraft again, I am sure!

Shame on all those Expat experts that are so fast to judge..your age does not make you an authority..on anything!

Typical TV HOGWASH.

Shut your old mouth and let the professional investigators determine the truth.

Thank you very much!

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Fox also reported there was another commercial airline sitting at the edge of the same runway waiting to takeoff after the Asiana airliner had cleared its landing. So presumably the pilots of the other craft had a close-up view of what transpired.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Aviation Week's website has a good initial report on the crash, including confirmation of the ILS outage...

One item of particular focus for investigators is expected to be the status of runway approach guidance facilities. An FAA Notam (notice to airmen) for San Francisco indicates that, at the time of the accident, the instrument landing system glideslope for runway 28L was declared out of service from June 1 to Aug. 22.

The Asiana accident represents only the third hull loss for the 777 since the aircraft entered service in 1995. The first of these was the January 2008 short landing accident of a British Airways 777-200ER at London Heathrow which was traced to fuel starvation caused by ice build-up in the engine’s fuel-oil heat exchangers. The second was a flight deck fire which occurred on an Egyptair 777-200ER whilst on the ground in July 2011. The Asiana accident is also the first involving a 777 which has resulted in a passenger fatality.

The Asiana aircraft written off in the accident, HL7742, was one of 12 777-200ERs operated by the Korean carrier. The aircraft first flew in February 2006 and was registered to the airline the following month.

http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.aspx?id=/article-xml/awx_07_06_2013_p0-594353.xml

Edited July 7, 2013 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[antfish]

When in doubt better fly with airbus.

good that almost all get out alive.

on other places in the net i saw photos of those who just escaped. comments pointed out that some of them seemed to had the time to take their luggage with them.

[Mosha]

Even with the ILS and all the auto stuff working. I think you'll find most aircraft landings are performed manually. Pilots like to keep their skills honed. Full auto is performed 1x a month to comply with certification, but is normally used in low vis conditions

[drdoom6996]

This is actually a flight I've considered in the past as part of my return route home. Can't describe how goddamn scary that is!

Definitely pilot error.

R.I.P. to the flight crew that was lost out the rear. A terrifying day in aviation.

Another who knows all. You going home by boat now?

[skippybangkok]

I'm a native San Franciscan.

I have flown this route, this airline and this aircraft a few times in the past.

I have nothing but praise for the airline.

I will fly this airline, route and aircraft again, I am sure!

Shame on all those Expat experts that are so fast to judge..your age does not make you an authority..on anything!

Typical TV HOGWASH.

Shut your old mouth and let the professional investigators determine the truth.

Thank you very much!

Our pleasure - still Pilot Error though

[AjarnMartin]

This is actually a flight I've considered in the past as part of my return route home. Can't describe how goddamn scary that is!

Definitely pilot error.

R.I.P. to the flight crew that was lost out the rear. A terrifying day in aviation.

Typical of the idiotic TV armchair critics who can analyse the cause of a crash prior to an investigation. Does it require a frontal lobotomy before residing in Thailand? I'm sorry, I missed this part of the processing.

[NeverSure]

Even with the ILS and all the auto stuff working. I think you'll find most aircraft landings are performed manually. Pilots like to keep their skills honed. Full auto is performed 1x a month to comply with certification, but is normally used in low vis conditions

You hit the nail on the head. Every pilot on here knows that with a long enough runway, you don't need any assistance from the ground to land. You put those runway painted numbers in the center of your windshield and keep them there. Then you watch your airspeed.

If you follow that to its logical conclusion, if you start way out with the painted runway numbers in the center of the windshield and keep them there, you will arrive right at the runway numbers, right where you want to touch down. If your airspeed is correct, you just settle the plane onto the runway in a perfect landing.

You can also use your altimeter to be sure your glide slope isn't fooling you.

A couple of good pilots, even just a private pilot, can put that plane on the numbers every time.

I will be very interested to find out how two good pilots missed the numbers, be it bird strike, low fuel, pilot error, wind sheer or something else.

[skippybangkok]

Typical of the idiotic TV armchair critics who can analyse the cause of a crash prior to an investigation. Does it require a frontal lobotomy before residing in Thailand? I'm sorry, I missed this part of the processing.

Whats even more amazing that with a Lobotomy, they still out perform you.

[jamhar]

When in doubt better fly with airbus.

good that almost all get out alive.

on other places in the net i saw photos of those who just escaped. comments pointed out that some of them seemed to had the time to take their luggage with them.

See? we disagree almost absolutely

Gimme a Boeing anyday.

But lets face it, i take the shortest trip, in time, and plane changes

regardless of manufacturer

but all things the same, Boeing for me.

[NeverSure]

Aviation Week's website has a good initial report on the crash, including confirmation of the ILS outage...

http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.aspx?id=/article-xml/awx_07_06_2013_p0-594353.xml

Thanks for the "Aviation Leak" reference

One of my favorite sources.

Here's their take on what happened

The aircraft hit the low seawall which separates the airport from the waters of San Francisco Bay. Images of the debris field indicate the 777 made an initial impact to the right of the centerline, losing its tail section and parts of the landing gear before sliding down the runway and slewing off into the grass to the south of the normal touchdown area. Eyewitnesses report the 777 struck the wall ahead of the displaced threshold area in a nose high attitude, causing the entire empennage to detach aft of the pressure bulkhead. The vertical and horizontal tail were scattered in the displaced threshold area, just ahead of major sections of the landing gear.

That's far from saying what caused it. Coming up short can be caused by a lot of things, and then toss in the curve ball that they were apparently to the right of the center line. I have no idea what caused it.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

None of my prior posts or comments were addressed at the cause... Just on reports of what happened and the circumstances, including that apparently the ILS was out.

[Scott]

Posts with a link to another site have been removed. Links to other forums is not permitted.

[Mosha]

A guy on a simming forum I am a member of, will have flown into SFO. He flies 747s for Cathay Pacific Cargo. He'll add his thoughts to a thread on their, when all the speculation is done.

[manarak]

I saw a news report that interviewed en expert (Mr. Ross, I believe) who saw a video of the crash, describing what he saw, like the plane shooting up sharply before it landed - is that video accessible on the internet somewhere?

[Loptr]

I cannot believe how many amazing air crash investigators we have on Thai-Visa and they don't even need to do any investigation... they can read a news article and already determine the cause... just amazing.

How about leaving it to the professionals??

I'm 100% certain that the crew would have been fully professional and deserve NOT to be judged at this stage.

You never know who is on this forum. I have been a pilot for over 30 years and have thousands of hours of PIC time. Some things are obvious from the evidence at hand, however remedial it may be. So never discount the ravings from the peanut gallery.

As another person posted, fatigue probably played a part in this accident. The NTSB will release their findings in due time, which I fully expect to be pilot error.

[MaxYakov]

*Snipped*

. All of this points to pilot error, but of course the NTSB will not jump to conclusions and will perform their due diligence before blaming the pilot.

Unlike so many posters on Thaivisa.

Not so unlike the Professional Pilots Rumor Network (pprune[dot]org):

<link voluntarily disabled> (tsk, tsk)

Edited July 7, 2013 by MaxYakov

[Loptr]

I saw a news report that interviewed en expert (Mr. Ross, I believe) who saw a video of the crash, describing what he saw, like the plane shooting up sharply before it landed - is that video accessible on the internet somewhere?

That was the pilot realizing he was low, pitched the aircraft up and applied throttle trying to make the runway. All for naught as it was too late. The sad thing is that the runway is over 2 miles long, so no need to land on the numbers due to runway length.

The ingestion argument doesn't hold water either. On final you are basically at a fixed throttle setting and adjust speed with attitude. Had they ingested debris it would not have affected the glide path that significantly, as they were doing just that, gliding. He was short and didn't realize it until too late.

I will gracefully bow out now as I am obviously an ex-SAS member that chews nails and bangs ladyboys, all while talking out my arse.

[manarak]

I saw a news report that interviewed en expert (Mr. Ross, I believe) who saw a video of the crash, describing what he saw, like the plane shooting up sharply before it landed - is that video accessible on the internet somewhere?

That was the pilot realizing he was low, pitched the aircraft up and applied throttle trying to make the runway. All for naught as it was too late. The sad thing is that the runway is over 2 miles long, so no need to land on the numbers due to runway length.

The ingestion argument doesn't hold water either. On final you are basically at a fixed throttle setting and adjust speed with attitude. Had they ingested debris it would not have affected the glide path that significantly, as they were doing just that, gliding. He was short and didn't realize it until too late.

I will gracefully bow out now as I am obviously an ex-SAS member that chews nails and bangs ladyboys, all while talking out my arse.

what about the several requests of the pilot for emergency equipment prior to landing?

apparently San Francisco airport has removed electronic landing help ??? how stupid is that?

Edited July 7, 2013 by manarak

[NeverSure]

I saw a news report that interviewed en expert (Mr. Ross, I believe) who saw a video of the crash, describing what he saw, like the plane shooting up sharply before it landed - is that video accessible on the internet somewhere?

That was the pilot realizing he was low, pitched the aircraft up and applied throttle trying to make the runway. All for naught as it was too late. The sad thing is that the runway is over 2 miles long, so no need to land on the numbers due to runway length.

The ingestion argument doesn't hold water either. On final you are basically at a fixed throttle setting and adjust speed with attitude. Had they ingested debris it would not have affected the glide path that significantly, as they were doing just that, gliding. He was short and didn't realize it until too late.

I will gracefully bow out now as I am obviously an ex-SAS member that chews nails and bangs ladyboys, all while talking out my arse.

I can't believe how many experts there are on here who were obviously in the cockpit and know exactly what happened.

First, you are wrong that on final all you do is fix the throttle and adjust speed with altitude. No, you don't adjust speed with altitude. You adjust it with attitude - nose up or down. No you don't "fix" the throttle. You use it to stretch or shorten your glide distance. If on final you hit a sudden head wind you add some power and if a sudden tail wind you reduce power.

And you haven't answered the questions as to why the plane hit off the center line of the runway, or if as reported, the pilot radioed several times for emergency equipment prior to landing.

Why don't we all just sit back and wait for an investigation?

[F430murci]

I saw a news report that interviewed en expert (Mr. Ross, I believe) who saw a video of the crash, describing what he saw, like the plane shooting up sharply before it landed - is that video accessible on the internet somewhere?

That was the pilot realizing he was low, pitched the aircraft up and applied throttle trying to make the runway. All for naught as it was too late. The sad thing is that the runway is over 2 miles long, so no need to land on the numbers due to runway length.

The ingestion argument doesn't hold water either. On final you are basically at a fixed throttle setting and adjust speed with attitude. Had they ingested debris it would not have affected the glide path that significantly, as they were doing just that, gliding. He was short and didn't realize it until too late.

I will gracefully bow out now as I am obviously an ex-SAS member that chews nails and bangs ladyboys, all while talking out my arse.

Cool about being a pilot. What aircraft. Father was 727 and 1011 for Eastern and then Fed Ex on DC10 and MD11. Step mom Fed Ex 727 and MD11. Brother was a pilot, military and type on Challenger and Global Express. Uncle a pilot.

The bird ingestion scenario I was thinking of would have been ingestion 1/2 mile to mile out. This would not have caused the deviations form glide slope. I was thinking more along the lines of possible not having the power that he would have expected when trying to correct.

Do they not have two crews for that route or at least one pilot to rotate?

Edited July 7, 2013 by F430murci

[maxman71]

I flew into SFO Sat, July 6 PDT from Seoul on a UA flight (892) a few minutes before this Asiana flight crashed. UA 892 from Seoul landed before this Asiana flight. I was literally in the process of checking in for my connecting flight from SFO to Phoenix when the crash occurred and SFO was shut down for all incoming, outgoing, flight check-ins, etc. All road vehicle traffic with the exception of emergency vehicles was blocked into and out of SFO.

Being a 3rd generation CA native from Silicon Valley, I knew that flights to SFO would be re-directed to Oakland and San Jose. So I quickly grabbed a taxi to San Jose before everyone else and booked a flight on a regional US flight to Phoenix, AZ, before road traffic was completely shut down.

The real luck in my story??? I had thought about booking the Asiana flight to SFO and instead booked the UA flight...