Dual Nationality

[Mossfinn]

We did try finding the NCS, heaven knows where you get all your links from?, but finally found there wasn't one near us, so we used the solicitor to check the forms as well as endorse the passports, although not that expensive it is cheaper using the NCS.

Whilst there, I enquired regarding the anomaly of the visa stamp that I requsted help on in previous posts.

His view is that it is an Embassy mistake! and that my daughter should have been given the same status as my wife, echoes of previous posts, an ILM stamp should have been issued and the life of the actual passport is irrelevant.

I questioned this again and again, stating a friend of my mine in very similar circumstances has had the same stamp issued, he is a brit national, his wife has an ILM stamp and the daughter got a visa to the end of the life of the passport.

He was a bit flustered at this, so went and checked with a senior colleague and he verified that an ILM in line with the mother should have been issued and that it was a mistake by the Embassy.

I stated it had to be a conscience decision to issue a visa to the end of the life of the passport as both examples would be an incredible coincidence, the visas were issued at different times, with weeks in-between.

This would suggest, if the solicitor is correct, and your previous posts, based on my limited info corroborates that the Embassy are issuing incorrect stamps.

The solicitors view is that Citizenship would not be granted to the daughter and that I should contact the Embassy for clarification, easier said than done, when it is easier to get an audience with the Pope that get through to the IND helpline!!

Continuing to endeavour

Moss

[the scouser]

Moss,

I think your brief has interpreted the situation incorrectly. On the assumption that your step-daughter has a visa endorsed indefinite leave to enter, as does Roamer's, she possesses indefinite leave whether or not the visa has expired. There are no restrictions upon her stay, and, as such, she may be registered as a British citizen.

In the "old" days, the visa would be valid for presentation to an immigration officer for 6 months and s/he would then endorse the indefinite leave in the passport. However, the visa officer now grants the leave, but the visa itself (not necessarily the leave) must have a date after which it will not be valid for a first entry.

Therefore, the visa hasn't been incorrectly endorsed, but, especially to non-immigration people, it is misleading.

Cheers,

Scouse.

PS. You can have a indefinite leave stamp placed in your step-daughter's passport by the Home Office, but you have to pay for it.

[roamer]

Scouser,

"PS. You can have a indefinite leave stamp placed in your step-daughter's passport by the Home Office, but you have to pay for it."

Well if that was the case believe me I would have done it, point of fact is, it was that I requested and was refused. Had no problems paying for it but they refused it. I don't want to post all the letters here, involves too many deletions but I will pm you it if you want to see it.

Also its worth pointing out that the OPs brief is right to assume a Home Office mistake, because to anyone with a logical mind thats what it appears to be, you say its misleading to non-immigration people, well in my case that extends to the Chief Immigration Officer at Gatwick who was firmly of the opinion that it was non valid (whilst accepting she had a right to enter after checking the computer). He also pointed out that the correspondence I was flourishing from the Home Office would'nt matter a fart at an overseas airline desk. I think if it were not for the fact that one of our party was a Bangkok based UN diplomat we would never have made the flight, it took a few phone calls .

[the scouser]

Hi Roamer,

Sorry, I should have made my earlier point clearer: you may have indefinite leave endorsed in a new passport.

I do take your point that the indefinite leave to enter visas are misleading. The CIO at Gatwick should have had the nous, though, to go through his own logical process and simply ask himself whether the holder of the indefinite leave had been outside of the UK for in excess of 2 years. If the answer was no then she qualified for re-entry irrespective of what the visa use by date was. It would be perverse to grant someone indefinite leave that is time limited.

Gatwick has evidently gone down hill since I left!

Scouse.

[vinny]

Interestingly, in the case of the child's ten year multiple entry settlement visa, there was no indication that the child has to enter the UK within the child's 18th birthday nor within 2 years each time.

[the scouser]

We've yet to see Moss' step-daughter's endorsement, but, yes, Vinny is correct that the validity of the visa relates to its presentation for the first time. Once the (indefinite leave) visa has been endorsed by an immigration officer, it ceases to be relevant.

Scouse.

[Mossfinn]

Hi Scouse,

I apologise for my lack of posting the stamp, but I appear to be a little technologically inadequate!!,

I have had it scanned but still appear to be unable to insert it into a post.

I will endeavour to try again until I succeed.

I really did not mean to cause so much hassle but thanks for all comments by eveyone.

Regards

Moss

[Mossfinn]

Hi Scouse,

I have just sent you? hopefully the passport picture, to your PM, let me know if this works!

Thanks

Moss

[the scouser]

..... I appear to be a little technologically inadequate!!.........

I'm afraid it didn't materialise again.

You have my e-mail address, so open a new message and insert my e-mail address. Then locate the folder which contains the scanned picture and click and drag the picture icon into the blank e-mail. This should insert the image in the e-mail which you can then send to me.

If all else fails, then ask your step-daughter.........

Cheers,

Scouse.

[vinny]

It might be easiest just to write down the following information from the visa/entry clearance -

Valid from:

Valid until:

Number of entries:

Type:

Obsrv:

the last two are the important ones.

[vinny]

See also Endorsements under

14.3 Children of parent(s) or a relative settled (or to be admitted for settlement) in the United Kingdom and how they qualify (Rules Paragraph 297)

Endorsements

Entry clearances issued to children in this category should be endorsed as one of the following (as appropriate):

'SETTLEMENT TO JOIN FATHER/MOTHER/PARENTS'

'SETTLEMENT ACCOMPANYING MOTHER TO JOIN FATHER'

'SETTLEMENT ACCOMPANYING FATHER TO JOIN MOTHER'

'SETTLEMENT TO JOIN RELATIVE' (specify)

'SETTLEMENT ACCOMPANYING RELATIVE' (specify)

'ILE'

14.4 Children of parent(s) being admitted with a view to settlement in the United Kingdom and how they qualify (Rules Paragraph 301)

Endorsements

Entry clearances issued to children in this category should be endorsed as follows (as appropriate):

'TO JOIN MOTHER/FATHER/CYR'

'ACCOMPANYING MOTHER/FATHER/CYR'

LTE 2 YEARS CODE 1

* Children of parents with exceptional leave to remain in the UK (ELTR) and Humanitarian Protection and Discretionary Leave are dealt with in Chapter 16.

[the scouser]

Moss finally overcame his technophobia and sent me an image of his step-daughter's visa. It is strange, to say the least.

At the time his step-daughter's visa was issued Moss' wife held indefinite leave to remain in the UK and, consequently, the step-daughter should have been issued an indefinite leave to enter visa (as was Roamer's step-daughter). However, the ECO saw fit to grant her limited leave to enter for 3 years instead. This error could possibly now prejudice Moss' step-daughter's application for registration as a Brit. cit. because she is not currently free of restrictions.

So, Moss, what to do? I think you should apply now for indefinite leave to remain for your step-daughter. The route you choose to take is, to use the Thai vernacular, up to you, but I don't think you should have to pay for it as it's the ECO's mistake that has led to her having to apply. I would write to the Home Office (or perhaps make an appontment to go to Solihull and see them) stating that your step-daughter sought entry to the UK under the auspices of para. 297 of the immigration rules but that her application was inappropriately considered under para. 301 and leave to enter granted under para. 302. (What's even more absurd is that the maximum duration of leave granted under 302 is 2 years yet they gave her 3.) Also state that this mistake is now prejudicing your step-daughter's application for registration.

Cheers,

Scouse.

[the gent]

From reading this thread it occurs to me that the visa sections, wherever, just can't quite bring themselves to endorse "indefinite" in a visa. Perhaps it goes against the grain and by adding some spurious expiry date they feel they are reducing the likelihood of some sort of abuse.

Either way, in doing so they are acting beyond their powers. Settlement in the context of this thread confers indefinite leave to enter and that is what should be endorsed in the visa. Limiting validity to 2 years, 3 or indeed 10 as has been mentioned is quite simply wrong and has no basis in law.

I suspect that the only way satisfaction could be gained is by taking legal action. It would be interesting first though to learn from UKVisas what their policy directive is to visa sections. Once that is revealed then the supposed legal authority upon which it may be based can be properly examined.

Reported conversations with immigration staff suggest confusion among the ranks but then I suspect that is a condition with which they are more than likely at ease.

[roamer]

Good luck to Mossfinn I say. On the face of it a complete cock-up and I thought I had problems with what happened to me! Just goes to show what plonkers are out there.....

[vinny]

If your wife had indefinite leave at the time of your step daughter's visa application, then I agree with Scouse that her visa/entry clearance was endorsed incorrectly according to the relevant immigration rules. Her visa/entry clearance endorsement should have been in line with her mother's.

Please note that if she is to be included her mother's citizenship application and/or register as a British citizen, then she has to be under 18 at the time of the application. Else, when she is 18 or over, she would have to qualify for naturalisation (as an adult) on her own.

So, if there is time, then she may apply for indefinite leave beforehand (i.e. now) as Scouse suggested. Else, IMHO, it may be possible for her to register for citizenship anyway, given her visa's incorrect endorsement. See Home Office Policy, Conditions of stay (9.15.25 to 9.15.28).

Good luck and let us know what happens!

[Mossfinn]

Thanks for support Roamer and the the Gent,

At the end of the day here, this is just a pain in the rear and thankfully a few people have put in a lot of time to help put others mistakes correct.

Other people have had much worse results, all this has cost me is inconvenience, time and a possible monetary implication.

But thanks again for support.

Moss

[Mossfinn]

Hello again Scouse and Vinny,

Thanks for your replies, as my last reply thanks for support.

I have taken note of the links and will have to just play it by the numbers now and hope that the usual processes will suffice.

Vinny, she is only just 16 at present, so we still have a certain amount of time to finish the process.

My next option is to e-mail and fax the Embassy and ask for an explanation and then try and locate an office that supposedly deals with corrections to incorrectly issued visas.

Don't be surprised if you get further posts regarding this issue.

Best Regards

Moss

P.S Vinny,

I forgot to mention, yes my wife had indefinate leave at the time of application of my step-daughter.

Edited April 19, 2006 by Mossfinn

[Mossfinn]

Hello everyone once again, just an update.

I have spoken to the Home office over the phone, explaining the situation and they accepted there is an anomaly with the visa issued for the step-daughter at the time.

He has stated that I can send it in and they will rectify the visa, free of charge.

However, the same guy has also stated that my step-daughter would not be eligible for Brit. Cit thereafter until she had completed a three year residency here.

Even after I had made the observation that she should be given the same status as her mother and I had been advised that it was only a two year residency for a minor over 13 years.

I have since checked the Link supplied by Vinny, thanks Vinny, in a previous post and this is clear although it does also state a little later, 9.15.23 & 9.15.24 that these are only guidelines.

So one step forward and a half step back.

Proceedings have halted for the moment as I am requesting visas from the Irish Embassy for a visit there shortly.

Now theres another story!!!

But you might also comment that I am the common denominator in both instances, I'm beginning to believe so!!

Regards

Moss

[the scouser]

At least things appear to be moving in the right direction....

Scouse.

[Mossfinn]

Hi Scouse

Absolutely,

With the help and the words you put together, I almost sounded like I knew what I was talking about to the Home Office guy, now that is frightening!

Received Visas for Ireland today, when back, I'll get back on track and sort out the Brit. Cit.

Thanks again

MOSS

[the scouser]

All the best, Moss, and enjoy your time in Ireland.

Scouse.

[Jamnjam]

No problems whatsoever and no rights etc are taken away.

Many members of this site have wives, children and husbands with two passports. A few members also have both as well

Do a search on this site and you'll see many posts on this topic.

Main thing to remember is to travel in and out of Thailand on the Thai PP's and to the rest of the world on the Brit PP.

This fact doesn't make it legal. However you are correct in what you say except the main thing is to get proper Thai law help especially if you plan on investing money in Thailand in your wife's name.

[samran]

No problems whatsoever and no rights etc are taken away.

Many members of this site have wives, children and husbands with two passports. A few members also have both as well

Do a search on this site and you'll see many posts on this topic.

Main thing to remember is to travel in and out of Thailand on the Thai PP's and to the rest of the world on the Brit PP.

This fact doesn't make it legal. However you are correct in what you say except the main thing is to get proper Thai law help especially if you plan on investing money in Thailand in your wife's name.

ummm....yes it does. The Thai nationality act was ammended in 1992, and the law does not specifically ban dual nationality as it did in previous versions (though to be fair - it does skirt around the issue but not in a way which makes it enforcable legally). As a result, in practice, it is allowed and I have three renewed Thai passports from the Thai embassy in Canberra to prove it.

[Mossfinn]

Wow, where did this thread come from?

This was my very first post over 7 months ago!! Haven't learnt much since then either.

Jamnjam, as samran said in answer to my first, there is no restriction on having dual nationality, but you are correct in thinking it is very ambiguous, which again led to my first post.

However, samran has explained on this thread and on the other that you have commented on, that it was a deliberate attempy at fudge and although in principle it appears to be not correct in practice cannot be withheld.

As my wife will testify shortly!@$% if common sense prevails.

I'm just wondering why your step-daughter's immigration status was not in line with her mother's when she first came to the UK 30 months ago.

This Vinny, is still a mystery and I am soon to lodge my second appeal.

I wonder where that will end up.

Good Luck to all

Moss

[mrbojangles]

This Vinny, is still a mystery and I am soon to lodge my second appeal.

I wonder where that will end up.

Bruddy h3ll Moss, is that saga stilll going on

[Mossfinn]

This Vinny, is still a mystery and I am soon to lodge my second appeal.

I wonder where that will end up.

Bruddy h3ll Moss, is that saga stilll going on

'fraid so, Mr Boj.

Even with every immigration point showing paragraph and sub-section proving it was an incorrect stamp, guidance from Vinny and our mutual friend of course, they still managed to knock it back.

Absolutely incredible!

But, "the road goes ever on", as Bilbo would say.

How about you? any further forward.

Good Luck

Moss

[dennis-137]

If your wife had indefinite leave at the time of your step daughter's visa application, then I agree with Scouse that her visa/entry clearance was endorsed incorrectly according to the relevant immigration rules. Her visa/entry clearance endorsement should have been in line with her mother's.

Please note that if she is to be included her mother's citizenship application and/or register as a British citizen, then she has to be under 18 at the time of the application. Else, when she is 18 or over, she would have to qualify for naturalisation (as an adult) on her own.

So, if there is time, then she may apply for indefinite leave beforehand (i.e. now) as Scouse suggested. Else, IMHO, it may be possible for her to register for citizenship anyway, given her visa's incorrect endorsement. See Home Office Policy, Conditions of stay (9.15.25 to 9.15.28).

Good luck and let us know what happens!

Maybe a little off the thread, but my stepdaughter Norwigian, Thai mother, would like dual nationaliy can this be done and how. She is now studying in BKK. Any help would be nice to get.

[the scouser]

Dennis,

The Thai embassy in Washington DC website gives good information on whether your step-daughter would be considered to be Thai.

Before she gets a Thai passport, she will need to get a Thai birth certificate, and if she was born in Norway, it may be that you have to register the birth at the embassy in Oslo rather than being able to do so within Thailand. Indeed, only 2 days ago my wife and I had to traipse down to the Thai embassy in London in order to register our son's birth with them and apply for his Thai passport. The advice we received was that the birth should be registered at the district office (amphur) in which the child was born and, if born overseas, then the Thai embassy in that country.

Scouse.

[dennis-137]

Dennis,

The Thai embassy in Washington DC website gives good information on whether your step-daughter would be considered to be Thai.

Before she gets a Thai passport, she will need to get a Thai birth certificate, and if she was born in Norway, it may be that you have to register the birth at the embassy in Oslo rather than being able to do so within Thailand. Indeed, only 2 days ago my wife and I had to traipse down to the Thai embassy in London in order to register our son's birth with them and apply for his Thai passport. The advice we received was that the birth should be registered at the district office (amphur) in which the child was born and, if born overseas, then the Thai embassy in that country.

Scouse.

thanks from one scouse to another.

maybe I should have given a bit more info? she is 24 and asked at Thai immigration and they said not possible after 18 yaers old, but I have heard of some English men can get both if good in the languge

[the scouser]

Dennis,

As your step-daughter is 24, you're going to need more specialist advice than I can offer with regard to Thai passports. There is one member on here who assisted me in the process of getting my son a Thai passport, and he might be better informed in relation to what your step-daughter should do.

Scouse.