Australia to Send Refugees to Papua New Guinea

[neverdie]

Given the problems the USA has given the world through recent wars in Iraq and Afghanistan I don't hear America shouting give me your tired and huddled masses.

Bush,Cheney and Rumsfeld fomented a lot of the current issues.

Jay, Didn't you know that refugees have been known to float straight past the USA, they didn't want to get off there .

[Scott]

You might want to stay on topic and you might want to check your facts. Under programs such as Quick Transit I, II and III, many thousands of Iraqi's were taken out of Iraq and resettled in the US. No other country was willing to help, and the right to overfly airspace was denied. Thailand was one of the only countries that allowed a refueling stop. QT III took 10,000 civilian workers alone. Oh, and that was after the war to free Kuwait.

Just to give you a taste, here is a quote:

USCIS has interviewed 142,670 Iraqi refugee applicants; approved 119,202 for resettlement and, 84,902 Iraqi refugees have arrived in the United States.

There are also many thousands of people who are resettled as immigrants rather than refugees. If a person can enter the US as an immigrant rather than a refugee, they must do so. This saves the refugee resettlement number for other refugees.

If they are screened and it is found that they are a refugee they can be presented to a number of countries for resettlement. Even if they are not a refugee but have an immediate family member in the US, they can be admitted as an immigrant.

If they are simply lodged in another country, they are denied this possibility.

As I stated, I understand Australia's position.

Now, let's please stay on the topic of Australia's problem with boat people.

[simple1]

The battle to help political refugees has been a hard fought battle, with many steps backwards. Although I certainly understand Australia's position, I am afraid they are starting down a slippery slope that other countries will follow.

As you probaly know current policy is now to deny requests for applying for resettlement to third party countries for those detained in PNG in contradiction to UN Conventions or at least the intent. I can only assume this is either for budgetary reasons or reenforcing a very harsh regeime for those arriving by sea.

If I recall correctly you have had extensive exposure to refugee/asylum seeker issues eminating from the M.E. What in your opinion should be the policy of the Australian government in processing the boat arrivals?

Edited February 21, 2014 by simple1

[Scott]

I spent quite a number of years in the refugee area and it has included S.E. Asia up to and including Bosnian refugees -- and a little beyond that time.

I am not Australian and the circumstances that Australia faces, although not unique, do put a big burden on the country. The best position, IMO, is to screen all arrivals and quickly return non-refugees to their country of origin, when possible.

It would probably be a worthwhile endeavor to get a number of non-governmental organizations involved who can advocate for those who are refugees. The NGO's provide a balance. Governments, in general, wish to appease the voters and this often means a rather punitive and adversarial stance toward the arrivals.

The general population in most countries are concerned more with their own well-being than the well-being of immigrants/refugees/asylum seekers. A good share of people are down right antagonistic. The balance in resettlement has to be to resettle the number of people which a country can easily assimilate and provide for. In the case of Australia, this balance has not occurred for a number of reasons and it is causing a great deal of harm, both for the people of Australia and genuine refugees.

[thaibeachlovers]

^ david48, yep I don't understand the pussy foot stuff around indo. Boats entering Australian waters originating from indo where greedy corrupt ppl in position of authority turn blind eyes to a huge illegal business that's booming.

Keep ur stinking boats indo and clean up ur mess or you''ll be dealt with. Sick of Australia taking backwards step to inconsiderate neighbours.

If they really want to stop the boats, criminalise the Indo crew with a substantial prison penalty, and once the word gets out, they won't be able to get crew to sail the boats.

[steven100]

^ david48, yep I don't understand the pussy foot stuff around indo. Boats entering Australian waters originating from indo where greedy corrupt ppl in position of authority turn blind eyes to a huge illegal business that's booming.

Keep ur stinking boats indo and clean up ur mess or you''ll be dealt with. Sick of Australia taking backwards step to inconsiderate neighbours.

If they really want to stop the boats, criminalise the Indo crew with a substantial prison penalty, and once the word gets out, they won't be able to get crew to sail the boats.

Correct ... and go after the corrupt politicians and indo police who are taking bribes. Pressure the government more .. threaten to stop any further aid if it doesn't start cleaning up it's human smuggling problem. I can tell you that the majority of the Australian population are sick and tired of the millions upon millions of tax payers dollars being spent and wasted on this issue. I sure am .....

[Scott]

An off-topic post has been deleted. There is no need to continue a discussion about places other than Australia.

[simple1]

^ david48, yep I don't understand the pussy foot stuff around indo. Boats entering Australian waters originating from indo where greedy corrupt ppl in position of authority turn blind eyes to a huge illegal business that's booming.

Keep ur stinking boats indo and clean up ur mess or you''ll be dealt with. Sick of Australia taking backwards step to inconsiderate neighbours.

If they really want to stop the boats, criminalise the Indo crew with a substantial prison penalty, and once the word gets out, they won't be able to get crew to sail the boats.

Correct ... and go after the corrupt politicians and indo police who are taking bribes. Pressure the government more .. threaten to stop any further aid if it doesn't start cleaning up it's human smuggling problem. I can tell you that the majority of the Australian population are sick and tired of the millions upon millions of tax payers dollars being spent and wasted on this issue. I sure am .....

For 2013/2014 Australia's aid budget for Indonesia is $583.6 million, a relatively small amount by global standards. If Australia was to cease aid funding guarantee another country will step in to further their agenda with Indonesia to the likely detriment of Australia's national interest for trade and security.

Edited February 21, 2014 by simple1

[thaibeachlovers]

^ david48, yep I don't understand the pussy foot stuff around indo. Boats entering Australian waters originating from indo where greedy corrupt ppl in position of authority turn blind eyes to a huge illegal business that's booming.

Keep ur stinking boats indo and clean up ur mess or you''ll be dealt with. Sick of Australia taking backwards step to inconsiderate neighbours.

If they really want to stop the boats, criminalise the Indo crew with a substantial prison penalty, and once the word gets out, they won't be able to get crew to sail the boats.

Correct ... and go after the corrupt politicians and indo police who are taking bribes. Pressure the government more .. threaten to stop any further aid if it doesn't start cleaning up it's human smuggling problem. I can tell you that the majority of the Australian population are sick and tired of the millions upon millions of tax payers dollars being spent and wasted on this issue. I sure am .....

For 2013/2014 Australia's aid budget is $583.6 million If Australia was to cease aid funding gurantee another country will step in to further their agenda with Indonesia to the likely detriment of Australia's national interest for trade and security.

Oz has always been wary of Indo intentions on Australia, so the "aid" etc is probably seen as an investment in preventing invasion. Whether it works is probably unknown.

[BookMan]

^ david48, yep I don't understand the pussy foot stuff around indo. Boats entering Australian waters originating from indo where greedy corrupt ppl in position of authority turn blind eyes to a huge illegal business that's booming.

Keep ur stinking boats indo and clean up ur mess or you''ll be dealt with. Sick of Australia taking backwards step to inconsiderate neighbours.

If they really want to stop the boats, criminalise the Indo crew with a substantial prison penalty, and once the word gets out, they won't be able to get crew to sail the boats.

Correct ... and go after the corrupt politicians and indo police who are taking bribes. Pressure the government more .. threaten to stop any further aid if it doesn't start cleaning up it's human smuggling problem. I can tell you that the majority of the Australian population are sick and tired of the millions upon millions of tax payers dollars being spent and wasted on this issue. I sure am .....

I for one, am all for bringing back the stocks and public shaming. Those no good Indonesian boating crews! Not only are they bringing poor and desperate people to Australian waters, the crew probably haven't had a decent bath in weeks. Do they use deodorants? How is their brushing and flossing routines? Please, don't get me started on possible head lice infestations!

Here is a ready-to-go model straight from the Bookman global online warehouse. $399 +GST. (rotten tomatoes not included)

[thaibeachlovers]

^ david48, yep I don't understand the pussy foot stuff around indo. Boats entering Australian waters originating from indo where greedy corrupt ppl in position of authority turn blind eyes to a huge illegal business that's booming.

Keep ur stinking boats indo and clean up ur mess or you''ll be dealt with. Sick of Australia taking backwards step to inconsiderate neighbours.

If they really want to stop the boats, criminalise the Indo crew with a substantial prison penalty, and once the word gets out, they won't be able to get crew to sail the boats.

Correct ... and go after the corrupt politicians and indo police who are taking bribes. Pressure the government more .. threaten to stop any further aid if it doesn't start cleaning up it's human smuggling problem. I can tell you that the majority of the Australian population are sick and tired of the millions upon millions of tax payers dollars being spent and wasted on this issue. I sure am .....

I for one, am all for bringing back the stocks and public shaming. Those no good Indonesian boating crews! Not only are they bringing poor and desperate people to Australian waters, the crew probably haven't had a decent bath in weeks. Do they use deodorants? How is their brushing and flossing routines? Please, don't get me started on possible head lice infestations!

Here is a ready-to-go model straight from the Bookman global online warehouse. $399 +GST. (rotten tomatoes not included)

pubic stocks.jpg

Not only are they not poor if they can pay the boat fee, they are not desperate, but economic migrants hoping to jump the q. As I have previously said, a genuine refugee will be happy with any safe refuge where they won't be killed.

As long as boat crews continue to sail the boats, the vile trade will continue if the migrants can stump up the cash.

[samran]

If they really want to stop the boats, criminalise the Indo crew with a substantial prison penalty, and once the word gets out, they won't be able to get crew to sail the boats.

Correct ... and go after the corrupt politicians and indo police who are taking bribes. Pressure the government more .. threaten to stop any further aid if it doesn't start cleaning up it's human smuggling problem. I can tell you that the majority of the Australian population are sick and tired of the millions upon millions of tax payers dollars being spent and wasted on this issue. I sure am .....

I for one, am all for bringing back the stocks and public shaming. Those no good Indonesian boating crews! Not only are they bringing poor and desperate people to Australian waters, the crew probably haven't had a decent bath in weeks. Do they use deodorants? How is their brushing and flossing routines? Please, don't get me started on possible head lice infestations!

Here is a ready-to-go model straight from the Bookman global online warehouse. $399 +GST. (rotten tomatoes not included)

pubic stocks.jpg

Not only are they not poor if they can pay the boat fee, they are not desperate, but economic migrants hoping to jump the q. As I have previously said, a genuine refugee will be happy with any safe refuge where they won't be killed.

As long as boat crews continue to sail the boats, the vile trade will continue if the migrants can stump up the cash.

"genuine refugee will be happy with any safe refuge where they won't be killed"...untill the realise that they can't work, get access to medical care and try and build a new life for themselves.

And that is the connundrum isn't it? I was appalled with Abbott, in opposition opposed the so called 'Malaysia solution' which would have given potential boat people work rights and legal status in Malaysia, and then refused to support ammendments to the legislation when the high court deemed it illegal under Australian law at the time. We should be encouraging more countries to do that, no less. But the politics was the important thing.

As for arresting the boat crews....like drug runners all you get are the dumb mules. Plenty of those fish in the sea.

Fact of the matter is that Australians are perfectly happy with people rotting in PNG....which may be okay but the punishment certainly doesn't fit the crime, so there is no natural justice in the present system.

[simple1]

Oz has always been wary of Indo intentions on Australia, so the "aid" etc is probably seen as an investment in preventing invasion. Whether it works is probably unknown.

Fear of Indo invasion has often been called the 'bogeymen threat'. Current Defense policy formulation, in conjunction with the US "Pivot to Asia', is actually to view Indonesia as a buffer against potential threat out of East Asia, protection of major trade routes and so on.

[David48]

Good to see that we have nearly acheived common ground! In ref to Indo legal, I was referring to the fact that Indo has not ratified the UN Convention for Refugees.

Are there current numbers on people arriving by air on some form of visa, then immediate claiming asylum seeker/refugee status?

I like constructive discussion, especially when it doesn't result in name calling, flaming and just moderate amounts of my stupidity - lol.

+1

... and I believe that is why the tread has survived so long.

almost no two people disagree more then simple1 and myself, the exchanges, while sometimes passionate, have never been disrespectful ...

[OZEMADE]

There have been no illegal boats of refugees in Australian waters now for 63 days according to the Minister for Immigration.

The break our from the detention center was caused by some radicals stirring the others up and most of the other refugees stayed and hid within the camp when the trouble started.

The radical ones that broke out of the camp were attacked by local people and PNG Police after they broke out.

[BookMan]

The break our from the detention center was caused by some radicals stirring the others up and most of the other refugees stayed and hid within the camp when the trouble started.

The radical ones that broke out of the camp were attacked by local people and PNG Police after they broke out.

ahhhh, inside knowledge from the horses mouth. Great stuff

[neverdie]

Whilst I will try and appease Scott and remain on topic, there's a great possibility that future world events may see more and more people seeking Asulym and hittings the seas and virtually almost any type of transport available to get to safety. Imagine the flood of people trying to leave a country like North Korea, if they had half a chance. There's a lot of very miserable people out there in the world and many of,them would do virtually almost anything to be able to live in the way Australians do (& for argument sake, you could delete the word Australia and insert any one of a dozens of other countries in there).

Australians don't really realise how,lucky they. I have also found Australians tend to lack the understanding of what it would be like to be landlocked with other counties, especially hostile ones.

I've never perceived an issue with Indonesia invading Australia, just mentioning it here seems amusing, but many older Australians still have pre-conceived ideas about Asians. Having politicians like Pauline Hanson hasn't exactly enhanced the cause either.

Any, irregardless of how many boats arrive, Australia can only benifit in the long run by taking its share of Asulym seekers, as I'm sure many of them would only be too happy to work and contribute to the Australian society, unlike so many dead beat Australian no hopers who are 2nd and 3rd generation welfare bludgers.

[neverdie]

Ps: please excuse my typos, I will never get use to these i pad keyboard thingies.

[BookMan]

Any, irregardless of how many boats arrive, Australia can only benifit in the long run by taking its share of Asulym seekers, as I'm sure many of them would only be too happy to work and contribute to the Australian society, unlike so many dead beat Australian no hopers who are 2nd and 3rd generation welfare bludgers.

I have noticed welfare recipients are often the most vocal about 'boat people'. Might just be my perception.

[neverdie]

I don't know bookman, I don't think I personally know anyone on welfare, but no doubt you are probable right LOL

[BookMan]

Scott Morrison admits information he gave on Manus riot was wrong

Australian security staff will be investigated over their role in the Manus Island detention centre riot that left one man dead and scores injured, Immigration Minister Scott Morrison has conceded.

In an extraordinary statement issued late last night, Mr Morrison admitted that much of the information he had given to the Australian public since Monday’s riot was now in doubt.

The most explosive admission is the revelation that most of the violence probably took place within the detention centre's fences, rather than outside its boundaries, as Mr Morrison had previously claimed.

“I wish to confirm that, contrary to initial reports received, I have received further information that indicates that the majority of the riotous behaviour that occurred, and the response to that behaviour to restore order to the centre, took place within the perimeter of the centre,” the minister said in the statement.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/scott-morrison-admits--information-he-gave-on-manus-riot-was-wrong-20140222-339hs.html

[samran]

Scott Morrison admits information he gave on Manus riot was wrong

Australian security staff will be investigated over their role in the Manus Island detention centre riot that left one man dead and scores injured, Immigration Minister Scott Morrison has conceded.

In an extraordinary statement issued late last night, Mr Morrison admitted that much of the information he had given to the Australian public since Mondays riot was now in doubt.

The most explosive admission is the revelation that most of the violence probably took place within the detention centre's fences, rather than outside its boundaries, as Mr Morrison had previously claimed.

I wish to confirm that, contrary to initial reports received, I have received further information that indicates that the majority of the riotous behaviour that occurred, and the response to that behaviour to restore order to the centre, took place within the perimeter of the centre, the minister said in the statement.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/scott-morrison-admits--information-he-gave-on-manus-riot-was-wrong-20140222-339hs.html

This government can't lie straight in bed...

[neverdie]

^ Now, now Samran, don't be like that, the Australian govenrment wouldnt tell fibs

Having said that, Scott Morrison isnt located in PNG and hes information is only as good as what is provided to him, just minutes after the incident which is the nature of media in this day and age.

As an investigor i know,that things arnt always what we first think. Sometimes incidents and crimes take many hundreds hours (if not multiples of that) to thoroughly investigate before a correct determination can be made. Things get extremely complicated when you dealing with foriegn countries, cultures and so forth. NONE of that fits into the 365 day, 24 hour, 60 min and 60 second media requirement of the current day and age.

Like most of them, Morrison probably wouldnt know if he own arse was on fire, lets face it many of the politicians in society are hardly the sharpest tools in the shed.

Edited February 22, 2014 by neverdie

[BookMan]

^ Now, now Samran, don't be like that, the Australian govenrment wouldnt tell fibs

Having said that, Scott Morrison isnt located in PNG and hes information is only as good as what is provided to him, just minutes after the incident which is the nature of media in this day and age.

As an investigor i know,that things arnt always what we first think. Sometimes incidents and crimes take many hundreds hours (if not multiples of that) to thoroughly investigate before a correct determination can be made. Things get extremely complicated when you dealing with foriegn countries, cultures and so forth. NONE of that fits into the 365 day, 24 hour, 60 min and 60 second media requirement of the current day and age.

Like most of them, Morrison probably wouldnt know if he own arse was on fire, lets face it many of the politicians in society are hardly the sharpest tools in the shed.

Any information Morrison receives is carefully analysed and fed back to the public as Morrison Disinformation.

I am fairly sure Morisson would see if his arse is on fire. His love for himself is so great that in his quiet times he likes to sit in front of a mirror. For press conferences he will choose a space that has good reflecting surfaces so at least he knows and can see he has a friend in the room on an intellectual par as himself.

[neverdie]

^. LOL @ Bookdude

[simple1]

Australia asked Cambodia, one of Asia's poorest countries, on Saturday to take in asylum seekers detained while trying to reach the Australian coast and Cambodia said it would think about it.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/02/22/us-cambodia-australia-idUSBREA1L06D20140222

No respect for this governemnt that has now stooped so low to approach a government accused of numerous Human Rights breaches that are even outlined on the DFAT website.

[neverdie]

^ Nothing would surprise me Simple1.

I wonder if the govenrment actually realises that asylum seekers in their care, they're responsible for the welfare and keeping of.

I can see civil cases against the commonwealth of Australia in the future, i wonder if they've factored that in.

I got a good idea, let's send the Australian politicians to Manus Island and keep the asylum seekers.

[neverdie]

There was just an interview with Richard Marle ALP and they are calling for MORRISON's head for misleading information. They are calling for OM Abbott to take responsibility for the death of the Asylum seeker on Manus Island.

........ is this the same former govenrment who failed to take full responsibility for the deaths of numerous Australians as a result of their dodgy insulation scheme? ...... what do they say about people that live in glass houses ?

[harrry]

There was just an interview with Richard Marle ALP and they are calling for MORRISON's head for misleading information. They are calling for OM Abbott to take responsibility for the death of the Asylum seeker on Manus Island.

........ is this the same former govenrment who failed to take full responsibility for the deaths of numerous Australians as a result of their dodgy insulation scheme? ...... what do they say about people that live in glass houses ?

No good using the telescope to the blind eye trick. If information is wrong it should not have been given and that should have consequences for those who give it. The PM however is responsible for the policy (and also how the information is obtained) and should be held responsible if the policy caused any harm and this means he should be kicked on two counts.

The insulation problem was caused by poor procedures and lack of training by the workers and insulation companies concerned and not as a result of the policy. I may turn out that this is the case in PNG and in this case as the contractor is directly responsible to the Government a higher standard of supervision should have been required.

Edited February 23, 2014 by harrry

[neverdie]

AGREE, Accountability is needed. Now if this was a Labour Goverment we'd have a changing of the guard about now, RUDD out, GILLARD in or is it Gillard out, Rudd in. what's going to happen here?