Thai Girl Loses Her Rights

[Neeranam]

I have heard so many different stories about this - can anyone actually say what the law is, if there is a law.

One friend said last week that his wife was refused land as she was married to a farang.

Last year another friend bought over 10 rai and she is married to a farang. She has an influential father in the government so i'm not sure what the case is for normal Thai girls.

I've heard others say that they can get up to 1 rai. I asked a judge who is married to a head policeman, and she said my wife would be ok for the amount of land that we could afford - 3 rai. She mentioned another couple we know and said they might have a problem. So, it looks like the law is not consistent.

When I hear guys say their wife was refused or told they couldn't apply, I smell a rat - maybe their wife has some hidden secret.

Any experiences?

[lopburi3]

The law is a Thai can buy land. Period.

If the Thai has a foreign spouse the land must be bought with Thai money and a document signed to that effect. This avoids the joint property ownership of marriage laws which would be in conflict with the land ownership provisions that do not allow foreign ownership. This was defined by a directive to all land offices a few years ago so before that time there were often cases where a Thai would not be allowed to register a land purchase as the directive was different. It is not a problem now. The new constitution decries equal treatment.

[chanchao]

Any problems if the woman owns a business (Limited company) ?

Cheers,

Chanchao

[Neeranam]

Thanks Lopburi, as I suspected, and any amount of land?

[lopburi3]

There should be no limits that others do not have to meet. But don't have detailed knowledge of this area as perhaps someone can chime in with details of any if there are?

Don't believe owning a company would exempt you for owning land? Or did I read wrong?

[Dragonman]

There should be no limits that others do not have to meet. But don't have detailed knowledge of this area as perhaps someone can chime in with details of any if there are?

Don't believe owning a company would exempt you for owning land? Or did I read wrong?

lopburi3 is correct. Since 1999, after a Constitutional Court decision, any thai lady married to a foreigner may own as much land as they (or their husband ) can afford. The Human Rights ruling means that there should be no discrimination against thai ladies married to foreigners on any matter. The Constitutional Court has ruled however, that us farangs can be discriminated against at will.

[mrbojangles]

Neeranam, i concur with Lop3 and Dragon.

My Mrs bought 3.5 Rai 2 months ago (bringing her total to 12.5 Rai) absolutely no hassles at all. As her passport has a farang surname, i had to go and sign some papers and that was that.

[thebear]

Any problems if the woman owns a business (Limited company) ?

Cheers,

Chanchao

No problem. If the woman buys the land through her company and the deeds are in the name of the company, and then something happens to her i.e she snuffs it, the land stays with the company. Ideally her shares in the company should be legally willed to you, and you should by proxy be at least in control of the company.

[thatguy]

the farang, in a simple buy situation, must sign away any right to the land. no joint ownership etc. you may lease back the land from the wife, and any buildings are yours. you effectively control the property without owning the land. in a company situation, company rules apply. see a lawyer.

tg

[TAWP]

So to sum it up: She doesn't loose any rights, she gains some problems.

(Usually clerks being suspicious about the purchase of the land, the husband has to sign waivers and so on.)

Have meet it too since the family has some 150 rai and have to divide it...

Edited April 9, 2006 by TAWP

[billd766]

My wife owned about 7 rai of land before I met her back in 1993.

We lived together until I moved to work elsewhere in 1998 and married in the UK in 2000 but she has kept her family name and not taken mine.

I came back to work here again in 2001 and finally lived here from then on. I gave her the money to buy the plot next door in 2002 so she then had 15 rai and we built the house in 2003.

This year she bought another 11 rai in her name so (we) have about 26 rai and no problems anywhere.

We are setting up our wills at the moment and iff she dies before me then it all goes to our 20 month old son and I am going to be both his father and legal guardian until I die when her brother takes over.

Of course if I die first there is no problem for me.

I have signed no legal papers or waivers and as far as I know she has no influential friends either. She is just a normal Thai lady.

[bbigman21]

A Thai can own land periond. But here is the crux Thai lady marries Farang and registers marriage in Thailand She is considered Farang. So even if she comes west gets married has foreign passport but does not register marriage in Thailand she is still Thai

[chuchok]

A Thai can own land periond. But here is the crux Thai lady marries Farang and registers marriage in Thailand She is considered Farang. So even if she comes west gets married has foreign passport but does not register marriage in Thailand she is still Thai

well you lost me there.

[TizMe]

Thai lady marries Farang and registers marriage in Thailand She is considered Farang.

<deleted>

[lopburi3]

Post number 12 is not true. Marriage does not change the fact she is Thai in any way, shape or form and all her normal rights are the same as before marriage, regardless of where it is registered.

[thebear]

the farang, in a simple buy situation, must sign away any right to the land. no joint ownership etc. you may lease back the land from the wife, and any buildings are yours. you effectively control the property without owning the land. in a company situation, company rules apply. see a lawyer.

tg

A "Usufruct Agreement" can legally give you control over the entire property for the rest of your life, and you do not need any Lease agreement.

PM me if you want more details

[Dragonman]

the farang, in a simple buy situation, must sign away any right to the land. no joint ownership etc. you may lease back the land from the wife, and any buildings are yours. you effectively control the property without owning the land. in a company situation, company rules apply. see a lawyer.

tg

A "Usufruct Agreement" can legally give you control over the entire property for the rest of your life, and you do not need any Lease agreement.

PM me if you want more details

Before anyone considers this route they should check with as many lawyers as possible whether they believe "lifetime usufructary rights" ( Sitthi-kep-kin talot chiwit ) are possible in practice in Thailand. For some reason the French Code has now included that the "natural death" of the usufructary is reason for cessation. Too many people having untimely accidents!

[Arkady]

I think lopburi3 is right. Thais married to foreigners are now permitted to own land without limit but the Land Dept requires some sort of verification that the land is being purchased with her own money. I don't know if this involves just signing a declaration or what but theoretically it can be investigated to see if the wife really had any money of her own. And yes, land cannot be regarded as part of the common marital property, so the foreign husband cannot get it in a divorce. Obviously being married overseas and not registering it in Thailand gets around the Land Dept requirement. A certified Thai translation of your foreign marriage certificate is accepted by Immigration if you want to demonstrate marriage to a Thai for permanent residence or a one year spouse visa.

[Sirdar]

I have heard so many different stories about this - can anyone actually say what the law is, if there is a law.

One friend said last week that his wife was refused land as she was married to a farang.

Last year another friend bought over 10 rai and she is married to a farang. She has an influential father in the government so i'm not sure what the case is for normal Thai girls.

I've heard others say that they can get up to 1 rai. I asked a judge who is married to a head policeman, and she said my wife would be ok for the amount of land that we could afford - 3 rai. She mentioned another couple we know and said they might have a problem. So, it looks like the law is not consistent.

When I hear guys say their wife was refused or told they couldn't apply, I smell a rat - maybe their wife has some hidden secret.

Any experiences?

[Sirdar]

I have heard so many different stories about this - can anyone actually say what the law is, if there is a law.

One friend said last week that his wife was refused land as she was married to a farang.

Last year another friend bought over 10 rai and she is married to a farang. She has an influential father in the government so i'm not sure what the case is for normal Thai girls.

I've heard others say that they can get up to 1 rai. I asked a judge who is married to a head policeman, and she said my wife would be ok for the amount of land that we could afford - 3 rai. She mentioned another couple we know and said they might have a problem. So, it looks like the law is not consistent.

When I hear guys say their wife was refused or told they couldn't apply, I smell a rat - maybe their wife has some hidden secret.

Any experiences?

[nasa]

Post number 12 is not true. Marriage does not change the fact she is Thai in any way, shape or form and all her normal rights are the same as before marriage, regardless of where it is registered.

Lopburi3, you are right !! Post 12 you are wrong.

[ChiefBEM]

Post number 12 is not true. Marriage does not change the fact she is Thai in any way, shape or form and all her normal rights are the same as before marriage, regardless of where it is registered.

Lopburi3, you are right !! Post 12 you are wrong.

Sorry for all of the details but I believe it is informative.

First I will address the process we experienced in the formalization of our marriage in 1970 at Ampher Ubon Ratchathani.

Second I will address the purchase of land by my wife who is a US Citizen and travels on a US Passport.

Here are my stories.

On December 28th, 1970, my wife and I went to the Ampher in Ubon Ratchathani to formalize our marriage which was established a few days earlier by traditional Thai Royal Wedding Ceremonies conducted by 9 Budhist monks.

We provided the Thai Officer with a statement from the senior monk who was in charge of the wedding ceremonies, my wife's Thai ID Card, my Thai Drivers License, and my US military ID.

The Thai Officer opened up my wife's family records. He tore three pages out of the record and gave them to my wife. He then went to two different pages, located my wife's name and drew lines through my wifes family name. He then wrote above the lines her new family name which was my last name. We paid a fee of around 150 Baht and everything was official.

THE ORIGINAL POST LEFT OUT THE FACT THAT ......

We were then provided with an official Thai Marriage Certificate.

In 2003, we were told that my wife needed to have a Thai ID Card in order to buy land.

After talking to the ID Card section in Ampher Ubon Ratchathani, my wife was given an appointment and told to bring certain things/people to the appointment.

She showed up for the appointment with everything she was told to bring.

1. The original 3 pages that were torn from the family register in 1970 when we were married.

2. Her US Passport

3. Her mother, her sister, her brother, and a close family friend

4. A completed form provided by the Ampher

At the end of the appointment, my wife was given a temporary Thai ID Card in her married name as specified on the US Passport. She was told a new ID Card would be issued within 30 days from a new ID Card system that was being implemented throughout Thailand.

She paid the ID Card fee.

She returned and picked up her new ID Card which is vaild for 5 or 6 years.

In summation, you can be a citizen of a country other than Thailand and still get a Thai ID Card showing you are a citizen of Thailand as long as you were born of Thai parents in Thailand and can prove it with records and witnesses.

Now on buying land in Thailand.

We were both told by government officers in Ampher Ubon Ratchathani that she (my wife) could buy all the land she could get.

However, we were also informed that seeing as how I (her husband) is not a person of Thai citizenship, I would be required by Thai laws to sign a release form that relinquishes all right to ownership of land purchased by my wife.

Edited April 30, 2006 by ChiefBEM

[Dragonman]

Post number 12 is not true. Marriage does not change the fact she is Thai in any way, shape or form and all her normal rights are the same as before marriage, regardless of where it is registered.

Lopburi3, you are right !! Post 12 you are wrong.

Now on buying land in Thailand.

We were both told by government officers in Ampher Ubon Ratchathani that she (my wife) could buy all the land she could get.

However, we were also informed that seeing as how I (her husband) is not a person of Thai citizenship, I would be required by Thai laws to sign a release form that relinquishes all right to ownership of land purchased by my wife.

Ah, it is refreshing to hear of a Land Office that actually understands the law.

Arkady. I am afraid that it makes no difference in Thai Law whether you got married in Thailand or overseas. You still have to advise the Land Office you are married, or even for that matter living together in a non legal marriage! This is as per the Constitutional Court ruling and has been in existence since 1999. Some people think not having your husband's surname gets around this, but if you do not sign the waiver you are breaking the law.

[Arkady]

Ah, it is refreshing to hear of a Land Office that actually understands the law.

Arkady. I am afraid that it makes no difference in Thai Law whether you got married in Thailand or overseas. You still have to advise the Land Office you are married, or even for that matter living together in a non legal marriage! This is as per the Constitutional Court ruling and has been in existence since 1999. Some people think not having your husband's surname gets around this, but if you do not sign the waiver you are breaking the law.

Thanks for your comment Dragonman and it sounds accurate. I am interested to know about what kind of declaration the Thai woman needs to make to certify that she is using her own money to buy the land and what kind of follow up is possible. If my Thai girlfriend and I are not legally married in Thailand and her house registration is her family's address, would there be really any point in her disclosing to the Land Dept that she is living in sin with a foreigner? What is the situation of land that she owns before she gets married to a foreigner? Finally, do Thai men married to foreign women have to go through the same procedures, now that the constitution specifically prohibits sexual discrimination?

[Dragonman]

Ah, it is refreshing to hear of a Land Office that actually understands the law.

Arkady. I am afraid that it makes no difference in Thai Law whether you got married in Thailand or overseas. You still have to advise the Land Office you are married, or even for that matter living together in a non legal marriage! This is as per the Constitutional Court ruling and has been in existence since 1999. Some people think not having your husband's surname gets around this, but if you do not sign the waiver you are breaking the law.

Thanks for your comment Dragonman and it sounds accurate. I am interested to know about what kind of declaration the Thai woman needs to make to certify that she is using her own money to buy the land and what kind of follow up is possible. If my Thai girlfriend and I are not legally married in Thailand and her house registration is her family's address, would there be really any point in her disclosing to the Land Dept that she is living in sin with a foreigner? What is the situation of land that she owns before she gets married to a foreigner? Finally, do Thai men married to foreign women have to go through the same procedures, now that the constitution specifically prohibits sexual discrimination?

The declaration is that the money used is strictly the wife's property outside marriage. However the ridiculous bit of it is that the husband may provide the cash as a gift. The husband must sign a document confirming this.

From a legal perspective it is in my opinion a totally superfluous bit of bureaucracy, as legislation laid down by the Constitutional Court is legally enforceable anyway, without them requesting this signed statement But then TiT.

Whilst the legislation covered those in "illegal" marriages, I think they meant non-legal. , I very much doubt any Land Office is acquainted with the Law.

As was the case when it was illegal for thai women married to foreigners to own land, pre marital purchases are protected, as the whole idea of the legislation is to stop the foreigner getting "his/her grubby little hands" on half of marital assets

Yes, spouses have to sign irrespective of sex, and also foreign parents of thai children(minors) who may purchase property.