Yesterday Was My 1/3rd Year Anniversary Here, I am So Happy In The Pub

[OldChinaHam]

One of my most favorite books about Asia since early childhood is "King Rat".

Who here has not read it and wished more than anything that they could have lived with Clavell during those good old days in his hut, when we would not have needed to care about the internet going down?

Please pay attention here, because I do not wish to be misunderstood.

When we read the real accounts, not the fiction, of what it was like to be in South East Asia, or East Asia, during these times, they were absolutely unbelievably tough. Tough men could hardly live through them, and most did not.

I have read just about every account I could find on the internet that was free to download and examine on my computer browser, including the ones about POW camps in Taiwan, Singapore, Burma, and some were only about big enough for 20 or 50 men to have been kept way out in the Jungle for years. Two or three used to be located in the mountains near my house in North East Taiwan, and there is no marker there now, just trees and a dirt path, and a mountain spring that I used to hike past often.

While I read through these riveting accounts of the ways the British forces survived, and the Americans and Australians, too, the question for me was always what was it that kept up their spirits, because to lose hope for a few days could mean death, after giving in and heading down that spiral.

There is nothing here in Thailand these days that remotely compares to anything that happened to the men in the military during the Second World War, don't be absurd by comparing the two. Still, it is nice to think that some guy today, down on his Thailand farm almost in the middle of nowhere, is tuning into TVF, and being provided with some of the comaraderie that TVF is famous for in Thailand.

And with just a bit of imagination, we can guess it was the men in the camps that used humor, and a refusal to show weakness, to keep themselves alive and ever forward oriented.

Thailand is now a paradise and Changi was a prison, just as there were many other POW camps in Asia during the war. And it is by looking at things like what goes on in the pub, or the TVF forum in general, that we gain a bit of understanding about how it was that men survived their terrible ordeals throughout most of Asia during those war years.

Farming is also a relative paradise in Thailand, and having a forum like TV can provide much support I should think.

Read most or all of the detailed accounts written by the POW men, and women, of WWII in their own words, much of which is freely available on the net, and then you may see the comaraderie of TV Forum in a different and more complex way than you had thought about it yesterday.

Someone could have said this better,

Apparently no one thought to say it,

So I said it,

If you do or don't like it,

Then say something,

Probably I can take it.

It is just a thought I have often thought.

================================

(I also wonder if any of you are history buffs who also have an interest in SE Asia WWII accounts of soldiers being cut off from their homes and families in the west? And can you provide examples of the type of thing I think I am talking about here?)

Edited July 27, 2013 by OldChinaHam

[theblether]

Okay I'm trying to get a hold of a manuscript written by my Uncle recounting his experience of being imprisoned in Taiwan. It was rejected by publishers as it graphically stated the abuse between prisoners in the camps. If I can get a hold of it, I'll abridge it and publish it for him.

Here's a link that you may be aware of already.....

http://powtaiwan.org/

Here's a list of a genre known as Despair Poems written by POW's.

http://www.fepow-day.org/html/despair-poems.htm

Here's one of my Uncle's poems.....

http://www.fepow-day.org/html/hill_on_taiwan.htm

He was interred at Kinkesaki Copper Mine for a while.

http://www.cofepow.org.uk/pages/stories_trip_to_kinkaseki.htm

.........................

I am getting a bit irritated about the manuscript going missing, there's a long story behind my Uncle, Trumpeter Smith's experience post war and I think that has as much bearing on the overall story as the story in Taiwan itself.

I've got to be honest, I've come across a few extraordinarily obtuse US citizens recently that have no clue as to what happened during the war and post war. Too many are cheerleaders for the Hollywood sanitized version and I think that's tragic. I do look to guys like yourself, JDGRUEN, Steelejoe, Tom Isaan and many others to actually dig in and uncover the truth.

I do wander into various forums which are written by US citizens in regards to the war experience and I find them to be universally fascinating and on the button. I requested that we get a History forum on TV but nothing came of it, the guys that were here during WW2 are dying off, and the guys that were here during the Vietnam War are now kicking on to their 70's. To me these are stories that must be told and it would be marvellous if TV could create a forum so that we amateur historians could study and share these subjects together.

[OldChinaHam]

Thank you very much for your reply here.

There is a man in Taipei, Taiwan, who is keeping alive, almost single handed, the memory and a shrine which you can visit with a small group that travels there once a year. The POW's that used to return to see the shrine and also to visit where they had been held are no longer able to visit due to infirmity of old age.

Of course I have not read through and carefully looked at the links which you just posted, but I am still very interested in continuing to read about the accounts.

I too would like to see such a forum, and until there is one it is still possible to search much infomation that is quite complete. The history is NOT pretty, and maybe this is why so few seem willing to read what is available.

It was the copper mines that were the worst in Taiwan which are located in the mountains and hills to the northeast of Taipei. I used to drive by them often and would think of the men that slaved there and died down in the copper mines with no medicine, no heat during the cold of winter, and only their fellows for comfort.

And then, as I mentioned, I would often hike up from my house in the suburbs of Taipei in the mountains there, and look for any remnants of the camp which held quite a few men. When you are there, and you feel what it was like in the terrible heat and the humidity during the summer, and in the pouring cold constant rain during the winters, and the very little poor food that these men had to sustain themselves while they worked in these camps, then you can understand just how incredibly tough and resilient they truly were.

You really have to try hiking up and down in the heat and 95 to 100 percent humidity to appreciate this.

[ToddWeston]

+1 where do I sign up for a history section.

I'm not into the Pearl Harbour or the MacArthur stuff as it's such a small piece of the regions history during WWII history. Canadians in Hong Kong, Brits & all Commonwealth/Dominion forces in Formosa and this region would be a fascinating read. It could be a legacy for so many members to share their knowledge.

Lest We Forget

old china ham trying to download King Rat later tonight

theblether lovely poem by your Uncle

[theblether]

I believe you're referring to Michael, I feel as if I've let him down as I promised him that I would bring a copy of the manuscript to be placed in the POW Museum in Taiwan. This topic has put me in mind to harass my family on the subject again.

I know that Michael was very ill in the recent past too and it would be a shame if I didn't get down there before he left us too. Michael represents the selfless silents' that just get on with it, and through his work not only has he preserved many of the stories, but he has been a link for the old generation to stay in touch with each other, and for my generation to pay homage. Michael has offered to arrange accommodation and transport for anyone visiting the sites down there, I think he's a very special man.

However we are lucky that we have members of this forum who are expert on the SE Asia Theater, and we should listen to them. Time waits for no one.

[OldChinaHam]

+1 where do I sign up for a history section.

I'm not into the Pearl Harbour or the MacArthur stuff as it's such a small piece of the regions history during WWII history. Canadians in Hong Kong, Brits & all Commonwealth/Dominion forces in Formosa and this region would be a fascinating read. It could be a legacy for so many members to share their knowledge.

Lest We Forget

old china ham trying to download King Rat later tonight

theblether lovely poem by your Uncle

I think the reasons I mentioned King Rat at all is that this is a book which can encourage a young man or woman to become more interested in the history, and because Clavell was actually there, even though he did not spend time in the harshest of camps. Also, the book is what I believe to be Clavell's only serious piece of writing about his experience, and his best writing. The film is also surprisingly good, which is nice to learn.

This history is very different from the usual more broad macro look at the history of the war. It deals with the personal experience of small groups and individuals. Also, it is good to read about the ships and boats that carried POWs to Japan to be slaves in the factories there. The way the men were transported in the boats and ships is very similar to the slave ships that brought Africans to work in various places around the world to be slaves on plantations.

They were positioned on the lower decks lying like cord wood, and were locked below decks with the hatches sealed, packed in as were the African slaves. It has been a few years since I last read the accounts but you do not forget them once you have read them.

It is possible to find quite a bit using Google search in one evening, and then spend a few days reading through it.

[theblether]

@ ToddWeston, Thanks very much, he was a special man who fought demons all his life. Some people came back and didn't talk about their experience, my Uncle spoke too much. It drove him to a mental breakdown and set his family on edge for years. Behind that though he was also a founder member of the Burma Star organization and was very highly regarded for his work.

To me the frailty is part of the story. He was known as Trumpeter Smith and it was his job to play the Last Post over the departed, a task that he did too often. he was also called the " Rabbie Burns of Kinkesaki " as he would spend all day singing and reciting poems. In later years he became a well respected expert of the works of Robert Burns and was in high demand during the Burns season and for after dinner speeches.

His primary influence on me was to make me think, he was constantly setting me puzzles and lists to work out, and he explained that these puzzles and the like were the tools that kept himself and others going through long monotonous days.

I agree with OCH about the experience of the conditions though, we wander in and out of AC unit controlled or fan rooms, my Uncle and all others didn't have that luxury. The other week I was badly burned on my face in a mere 30 minutes, that was my fault, these gentlemen had no choice but to work below the mid day sun. They didn't have insect sprays, they had nothing.

We don't know that we are born compared to these men, when you look at the nature of some of the comments on this forum you can see how pathetic and weak willed many people have become. The strange thing is, my Uncle and the other FEPOW's that I have met didn't go around castigating the younger generation, I think they were just universally delighted that we didn't have to go through what they did.

Yes they had rancour, but it was directed at the Japanese government and the British government, they aimed all their efforts at those they held responsible, and they got on with their lives as best they could.

Very wise men that could teach us a lot.

[OldChinaHam]

I believe you're referring to Michael, I feel as if I've let him down as I promised him that I would bring a copy of the manuscript to be placed in the POW Museum in Taiwan. This topic has put me in mind to harass my family on the subject again.

I know that Michael was very ill in the recent past too and it would be a shame if I didn't get down there before he left us too. Michael represents the selfless silents' that just get on with it, and through his work not only has he preserved many of the stories, but he has been a link for the old generation to stay in touch with each other, and for my generation to pay homage. Michael has offered to arrange accommodation and transport for anyone visiting the sites down there, I think he's a very special man.

However we are lucky that we have members of this forum who are expert on the SE Asia Theater, and we should listen to them. Time waits for no one.

Yes, I had forgotten his name, but he is completely devoted and he was very proud to be recognized by the British government I believe, even though I think he is an American.

Sorry, as you say, I am no expert, I only read whatever I could find, but never made a true study of the history.

Michael is a fairly young man, I had thought, looking at his picture before he went to England to be recognized for his dedication to the memorial and also for the work he has been doing. I am surprised to learn that he is ill.

[DogNo1]

It seems to me that the OP is perhaps as much interested in comradeship itself as about history. I am a Vietnam veteran and I talk quite a bit with my friend who is a Vietnam vet about the Vietnam wars and share many books with him about the Vietnam wars and many others. I say Vietnam wars because the war fought by the French and by America and its allies are of a piece. John Foster Dulles more or less forced the French to fight their war in Vietnam as an American proxy. There is a wealth of information about most wars in books. My friend has actually compiled a Vietnam War reading list and we are working our way through it. He is way ahead of me. I can't say that I know anyone who is nostalgic about the Vietnam wars but I know many, including myself, whose lives were changed by it. The OP's focus seems to be on WW II and not so much on Vietnam but if anyone is interested, I can post the reading list for the Vietnam war.

[theblether]

@OCH Michael was seriously ill a couple of years ago and it took him a long time to recover. I haven't been in contact with him for a while but I intend to do so later this year. I'll discover his latest state of health when I do so. I believe Michael was awarded the equivalent of an MBE for his work by the British government, again I'll clarify that when I contact him.

@DogNo1 That would be great, I don't know if you are aware of Tom Isaan, JDGRUEN brought him to our attention a couple of months back

https://twitter.com/isaanlife

He has a very interesting blog too which covers a lot of the aspects of the US military involvement in Thailand during the Vietnam War.

[OldChinaHam]

DogNo1. "It seems to me that the OP is perhaps as much interested in comradeship itself as about history."

Yes this is true, but no less in the history.

If we read the history, then it is the comradeship which we notice and find remarkable. It was this that kept these men alive when there was little else. And it is the whole of the history including all parts which has kept me thinking about what happened to these men, even now over ten years since I first begin reading. Not too many people I know are very interested in hearing about this history, but it is important to be able to discuss what it means.

[theblether]

Ah but that's the beauty of the internet, there are several of us here on Thaivisa that are interested and I honestly believe that if we can get a history forum fired up it will become one of the most fascinating reads on TV.

[OldChinaHam]

After thinking a bit more regarding what has been said above,

Not only is it the comradeship which I want to learn more about during those times.

But it is also the endurance. How do men endure under these terrible conditions which you might think would cause lesser men to just quit find a quick way out.

[DogNo1]

OldChinaHam: I am waiting for my friend's permission to post his Vietnam War reading list and as soon as I get an OK, I will do that. Most of the books I read are about history and I hope that we will be able to establish a history thread. It would be a lot of fun posting and reading other members' posts.

[pigeonjake]

ill have to ask my mum if she has any details of her grandfather who was shot in both knees and feet for trying to escape, by the japs

ill ask her when i get back down to england, dont wont to ask over the phone,

jake

[smokie36]

Thanks for this post OCH....my cousin's son is over in Afghanistan right now and I receive messages from him from time to time and the lads over there have a good sense of humour.

Their camaraderie keeps them going and I can tell from the pics and words that they are a very close bunch.

However nowadays things must be easier for them having communication daily with their loved ones back home.

Imagine how alone those guys were then.....its hard to do so and a testament to their bravery.

Again thanks.

[OldChinaHam]

You know, smokie36, ToddWeston has suggested above that I might try obtaining the King Rat book and film and that I might try to read and watch them another time after so many years.

I did take his suggestions and yesterday I tried both but I could not get past the first opening pages and minutes of the film. The book needs to be read when one is very young, and is a good way to encourage young people in Asia to become more interested in actually reading the true history of World War Two POW existence in Asia. They will find that reading the true history and the true accounts can provide an understanding of life far more valuable than any book of fiction, and just as "page turning".

Actually going to visit the sites where the POW camps were located is valuable in many cases, and can be done from Thailand fairly easily, because we can then experience the harsh environment where some of the camps were located. The ones I know in the vicinity of Taipei, I only like to hike through and would not want to spend a night in a tent with extremely high humidity, insects that would eat me alive the first night, hills so steep, freezing in the winter with its constant rain, and dark days. Taipei's weather is some of the worst on earth. No medicine, and parasites which were disgusting and would kill you, the maggots that you dug out through your skin I do not think I would like, or the brown worms which arise from drinking water that has not been purified that grow in the gut, which according to one account had to be pulled out manually. I can tell you I would rather be dead. It was the leadership which helped the men endure in many cases. I encourage any young people here to read the history and most importantly the personal accounts. There are not too many, but there are enough.

[pigeonjake]

as most of us have been i would think to the bridge over the kwai,

just to stand in the cemetery and think of the pain that them men went through was enough to bring tears to my eyes, yes both time ive been,

i bought my flowers for a jackson that i think is in d6,bless him and also on the main senataf there,

bless them all, the ones that made it home and the ones that didnt,

jake

[krisb]

After thinking a bit more regarding what has been said above,

 

Not only is it the comradeship which I want to learn more about during those times.

 

But it is also the endurance.  How do men endure under these terrible conditions which you might think would cause lesser men to just quit find a quick way out.

I think we underestimate ourselves when it comes to survival, and that imagining what they went through is hard to fathom. Its amazing what humans are capable of when put in horrific situations.

I have a great uncle who's now gone sadly who was a POW. The ends of his fingers were worn away when he and some other POWs tunneled out underneath a gymnastic vault. They made a movie about these guys. A true survivor, fascinating but such a sad story.

[DogNo1]

Dear TV friends: As promised, I am posting my friend's reading list. I hope that we can get a history blog started!

INDOCHINA WAR RECOMMENDED BOOKS.

1. The French Experience.

(1) THE QUICKSAND WAR: Prelude to Vietnam by Lucien

Bodard.

(2) INDOCHINA, An Ambiguous Colonization 1658 1954.

by Pierre Brocheux & Daniel Hemery

(3) STREET WITHOUT JOY by Bernard B. Fall.

(4) VIETNAM WITNESS by Bernard B. Fall.

(5) THE STRUGGLE FOR INDOCHINA, 1940 1955 by

Ellen J. Hammer.

2. DIEN BIEN PHU.

(6) HELL IN A VERY SMALL PLACE by Bernard B. Fall.

(7) DIEN BIEN PHU by General Vo Nguyen Giap.

(8) VALLEY OF DEATH by Ted Morgan.

3. Intelligence.

(9) NONE SO BLIND by George W. Allen.

(10) WAR OF NUMBERS by Sam Adams.

4. Infantry and Air Combat.

(11) A RUMOR OF WAR by Philip Caputo.

(12) WE WERE SOLDIERS ONCE AND YOUNG by

Lt. Gen. Harold G. Moore & Joseph L. Galloway.

(13) GOING DOWNTOWN by Jack Broughton.

5. Counterinsurgency & the Other War.

(14) THE BETRAYAL by William R. Corson.

(15) WAR COMES TO LONG AN by Jeffrey Race.

(16) WHY VIETNAM MATTERS by Rufus Phillips.

(17) WINDOW ON A WAR by Gerald C. Hickey.

(18) THE POLITICS OF HEROIN IN SOUTHEAST ASIA by

Alfred W. McCoy.

6. The Enemy North Vietnam & Viet Cong.

(19) PAVN: PEOPLES ARMY OF VIETNAM by Douglas

Pike.

(20) VIET CONG by Douglas Pike.

(21) VICTORY AT ANY COST by Cecil B. Currey.

(22) SACRED WAR by William J. Duiker.

(23) HO CHI MINH by William J. Duiker.

(24) VICTORY IN VIETNAM by Merle L. Pribbenow.

(25) VIETNAM, A Long History by Nguyen Khac Vien.

7. War Attitudes in America.

(26) THEY MARCHED INTO SUNLIGHT by David

Maraniss.

8. War Photography.

(27) REQUIEM by Tim Page.

9. Weapons of War.

(28) WEAPONS OF THE VIETNAM WAR edited by

Anthony Robinson.

(29) TOOLS OF WAR by Edgar C. Doleman, Jr.

10. South Vietnam.

(30) A DEATH IN NOVEMBER by Ellen J. Hammer.

(31) INTO LAOS by Keith William Nolan.

11. Thailand.

(32) THE STRUGGLE FOR THAILAND, COUNTER-INSURGENCY 1965 1985 by General Saiyud Kerdphol.

12. Laos.

(33) SHADOW WAR, THE CIAS SECRET WAR IN LAOS

by Kenneth Conboy.

13. Cambodia.

(34) THE POL POT REGIME by Ben Kiernan.

(35) CAMBODIA 1975 1982 by Michael Vickery.

14. Strategy.

(36) ON STRATEGY: A CRITICAL ANALYSIS OF THE

VIETNAM WAR by Harry G. Summers.

(37) MODERN WARFARE by Roger Trinquier.

15. U.S. Army.

(38) SUMMONS OF A TRUMPET by Dave Richard Palmer.

(39) THE 25-YEAR WAR by General Bruce Palmer, Jr.

(40) A SOLDIER REPORTS by General William C.

Westmoreland.

(41) THE RISE AND FALL OF AN AMERICAN ARMY by

Shelby L. Stanton.

(42) SELF-DESTRUCTION, The Disintegration and Decay of

The U.S. Army During the Vietnam Era by Cincinnatus.

(43) VIETNAM ORDER OF BATTLE by Shelby L. Stanton.

16. Outstanding Reporting.

(44) OUR OWN WORST ENEMY by William J. Lederer.

(45) THE LAST CONFUCIAN by Denis Warner.

17. General Histories That Are Required Reading.

(46) THE INDOCHINESE EXPERIENCE OF THE FRENCH

AND THE AMERICANS by Arthur J. Dommen.

(47) THE BEST AND THE BRIGHTEST by David

Halberstam.

(48) THE VIETNAM WAR. AN ALMANAC edited by John S.

Bowman.

(49) DERELECTION OF DUTY.. by H.R. McMaster.

(50) FROM ENEMY TO FRIEND by Bui Tin.

[theblether]

Thanks very much for that list DogNo1

[theblether]

Okay, it looks like we have approval to run history topics in the Thailand and South East Asia photo history channel. I'll go obver there and start the first topic ( or two ) and your very very welcome to join me.

[DogNo1]

theblether: Sorry I can't find that forum. Could you kindly post a link? Thanks.

[andrewrooney]

I don't have any firsthand sources to contribute, my grandfather never talked about WW2 and my dad mostly sat on a naval base in California during Vietnam. I do find history fascinating though, and have to give credit to OP for a great post there! Reflecting on everything those men went through helps us appreciate how good we have it today.

I'll definitely check out the history posts.

[theblether]

Here's the link to the forum.......

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/forum/155-thailand-and-siam-history-photos/

[StreetCowboy]

I don't have any firsthand sources to contribute, my grandfather never talked about WW2 and my dad mostly sat on a naval base in California during Vietnam. I do find history fascinating though, and have to give credit to OP for a great post there! Reflecting on everything those men went through helps us appreciate how good we have it today.

I'll definitely check out the history posts.

I find it frightening how ill-prepared we are now. I never experienced deprivation or hardship in my youth, and my children have never experienced bigotry or bullying.

SC