Pope Francis signals openness towards gay priests

[isanbirder]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/29/pope-francis-openness-gay-priests

Pope Francis gave an unexpected press conference on board his flight back to Italy. I don't think it actually says much new, just that it shows him as a very human, non-judgmental person. What he said about being gay reflects the catechism, viz. that a gay orientation is not sinful, but acting on it is. This still seems to me to be illogical.

[Jingthing]

It's as good as it gets for the Catholic religion.

Probably explains why so many gays have fled from the Catholic religion.

[LeCharivari]

Well, IB, we're all sinful and as the Pope said sins can be forgiven and forgotten by God unlike crimes such as the sexual abuse of children - unfortunately the two are often lumped together arbitrarily by those with an anti-Catholic agenda.

Looking at this very much as an "ex"- Catholic, although one who still has a lot of respect for the ability of the Church to be a force for good in the world (my father was a Jesuit and I was raised as a Catholic, so old habits die hard), I think he's actually making comparatively massive strides and that they're entirely genuine, which is more than I can say for many politicians who have "embraced" the gay cause.

Some of his views are a marked change from what was the previously accepted norm - not least just calling gays "gay"!:

""If someone is gay and he searches for the Lord and has goodwill, who am I to judge? The catechism of the Catholic Church explains this very well. It says they should not be marginalised because of this but that they must be integrated into society."

As you say, though, reconciling "loving the sinner" with accepting the "sin" is a real dichotomy for the Catholic church, but clearly there is progress and unlike some other religions there is some room for changing with the times - I don't think this will ever be to include gay marriage, but civil unions are a very different matter.

I also have to agree with him 100% in his views of at least some of the "gay lobby", whose actions towards the Catholic church have at times been nothing less than disgraceful and totally unjustifiable: "It is, however, important to separate the fact of being gay from that of lobbying, The problem is not having this orientation. We must be brothers. The problem is lobbying by this orientation, or lobbies of greedy people, political lobbies, Masonic lobbies, so many lobbies. This is the worse problem." A prime example was the demonstration against the Archbishop of Chicago outside the Our Lady of Mt Carmel church in Chicago last month ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1GCtK3rfZc ) by a gay group - what is not so clear is that those who were abused attending the Archbishop's service were themselves gay, as the service was specifically for its gay Catholic group the AGLO (Archdiocese Gay Lesbian Outreach).

While the idea that gays have left the Catholic church in droves purely because of its policy on gays is a popular one with those knocking the church it doesn't really have anything to support it in terms of either numbers or the studies of those leaving the church and its a bit of a myth. The simple fact is that the numbers of those identifying as Catholics worldwide has remained pretty steady at around 17% of the population for decades and of those who have left only a small number have reportedly left because of the gay issue - many both in and out of the Catholic church may prefer gays to leave the Church, for various reasons, but the fact remains that comparatively few have and the number of officially "gay-friendly" parishes is on the rise in many countries.

[Jingthing]

That youtube video was a far right wing anti-gay hit piece.

It was clearly designed and edited to mock those protesters, to demonize them.

Hilarious on a gay forum such a toxic anti-gay video is posted as being credible and admirable.

Note the comments following: hard core homophobia. That's who that video was for.

The core message of those gay activist protesters in Chicago was extremely admirable:
Church Out of Politics.

Bravo!

In the American system, the ideal is SEPARATION of church and state.

Religious institutions, Catholic and otherwise should not be dominating secular governmental institutions.

Except of course in theocracies, a horrible form of government to be disdained.

Their other message: Opposition to Equal rights is Bigotry is also totally defensible in all manner of civil rights movements, racial, sexual, etc.

I think the Pope was talking about something else, the Vatican gay lobby thing specifically.

Of course the core agenda of the Catholic church is against equal rights for gay people in societies.

They have shown this again and again all over the world.

They have a right to do whatever they want WITHIN their religion within the law of course.

But when any religion tries to tamper with the greater society, cramming their "morality" down the throats of all the people including the totally secular, protests are in order. Big time.

They will always be against marriage rights.

Don't be suckered by the softening of the tone.

The core agenda has not changed.

The softening is better than nothing. But it won't get better. It can't get better. They're tied to their dogma.

I am posting here to represent the gay people in the world who DO support gay political activism and lobbying. Not every single thing every gay activist has ever done. But to defend the concept as extremely valuable and important towards furthering HUMAN RIGHTS for gay people throughout the world.

Edited July 30, 2013 by Jingthing

[LeCharivari]

That youtube video was a far right wing anti-gay hit piece.

It was clearly designed and edited to mock those protesters, to demonize them.

Hilarious on a gay forum such a toxic anti-gay video is posted as being credible and admirable.

Note the comments following: hard core homophobia. That's who that video was for.

The core message of those gay activist protesters in Chicago was extremely admirable:

Church Out of Politics.

Bravo!

In the American system, the ideal is SEPARATION of church and state.

Religious institutions, Catholic and otherwise should not be dominating secular governmental institutions.

Except of course in theocracies, a horrible form of government to be disdained.

Their other message: Opposition to Equal rights is Bigotry is also totally defensible in all manner of civil rights movements, racial, sexual, etc.

I think the Pope was talking about something else, the Vatican gay lobby thing specifically.

Of course the core agenda of the Catholic church is against equal rights for gay people in societies.

They have shown this again and again all over the world.

They will always be against marriage rights.

Don't be suckered by the softening of the tone.

The core agenda has not changed.

That youtube video was a far right wing anti-gay hit piece.They're tied to their dogma.

I am posting here to represent the gay people in the world who DO support gay political activism and lobbying. Not every single thing every gay activist has ever done. But to defend the concept as extremely valuable and important towards furthering HUMAN RIGHTS for gay people throughout the world.

"That youtube video was a far right wing anti-gay hit piece."

FACT: those physically on the receiving end of the abuse were ALL GAY doing nothing more than going to a mass for GAY Catholics.

"Note the comments following: hard core homophobia. That's who that video was for."

FACT: that's what often happens when bigots of ANY type abuse those who are going about their lives and doing no harm to anyone - the bigots unwittingly feed the opposition.

"Church Out of Politics. ..... Religious institutions, Catholic and otherwise should not be dominating secular governmental institutions."

FACT: Catholic priests are forbidden by Canon Law from holding any political office anywhere and the Vatican City is the only Catholic theocracy (by popular consent). Catholicism has far less direct or indirect influence in any country than other religions such as Islam and Judaism do in other countries, but it has been singled out for particular attention despite that - although mosques in the US have inevitably come in for anti-gay attention, I don't recall any gay protests outside any synagogues.

"In the American system, the ideal is SEPARATION of church and state".

FACT: contrary to popular belief, there is no clause in either the American Constitution or the Declaration of Independence separating Church and State. On the contrary, the Declaration of Independence states that all rights come from the "Creator "... with ... "a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence", and although the First Amendment prohibits a national religion every session of Congress opens with a prayer led by the Senate Chaplain (so far always a Christian, and only once out of 62 a Catholic) or a guest Chaplain (who recently could be a token representative of another religion).

"Of course the core agenda of the Catholic church is against equal rights for gay people in societies."

FACT: the core agenda of the Catholic church is to promote Catholicism and Christianity, nothing else - equal rights is part of that, and equal gay rights is becoming a more prominent part of that, with the new Pope supporting equal rights for gay priests (as widely reported).

"They will always be against marriage rights."

AGREED. I did say "I don't think this will ever be to include gay marriage, but civil unions are a very different matter" and the Catholic church's position has always been that marriage has historic, religious and moral content that goes back to the beginning of time, and a marriage is as a marriage has always been, between a man and a woman, but the Catholic hierarchy are increasingly agreeing that civil unions give gay and lesbian couples the stability and security they need without interfering in any way with the tradition of marriage.

"I am posting here to represent the gay people in the world who DO support gay political activism and lobbying."

FACT: you and I represent NOBODY but ourselves.

You may not like the Catholic Church or what it represents - that is your right, but it is other people's "HUMAN RIGHT" to be members of the Catholic Church and to support and follow its teachings and beliefs just as it is your right to be Jewish, someone else's right to be Muslim, etc. The new Pope is not only doing far more to introduce equal rights into the Catholic Church than any of his recent predecessors, but far more than his opposite numbers in Judaism, Islam or any other major religions are doing.

The current position is NOT "as good as it gets for the Catholic religion" as things are very clearly getting better - more could (and probably will) be done, but if other religions took similar steps human rights (and gay rights) would take a dramatic leap forward.

.

Edited July 30, 2013 by LeCharivari

[Jingthing]

"That youtube video was a far right wing anti-gay hit piece."

FACT: those physically on the receiving end of the abuse were ALL GAY doing nothing more than going to a mass for GAY Catholics.

"Note the comments following: hard core homophobia. That's who that video was for."

FACT: that's what often happens when bigots of ANY type abuse those who are going about their lives and doing no harm to anyone - the bigots unwittingly feed the opposition.

"Church Out of Politics. ..... Religious institutions, Catholic and otherwise should not be dominating secular governmental institutions."

FACT: Catholic priests are forbidden by Canon Law from holding any political office anywhere and the Vatican City is the only Catholic theocracy (by popular consent). Catholicism has far less direct or indirect influence in any country than other religions such as Islam and Judaism do in other countries, but it has been singled out for particular attention despite that - although mosques in the US have inevitably come in for anti-gay attention, I don't recall any gay protests outside any synagogues.

"In the American system, the ideal is SEPARATION of church and state".

FACT: contrary to popular belief, there is no clause in either the American Constitution or the Declaration of Independence separating Church and State. On the contrary, the Declaration of Independence states that all rights come from the "Creator "... with ... "a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence", and although the First Amendment prohibits a national religion every session of Congress opens with a prayer led by the Senate Chaplain (so far always a Christian, and only once out of 62 a Catholic) or a guest Chaplain (who recently could be a token representative of another religion).

"Of course the core agenda of the Catholic church is against equal rights for gay people in societies."

FACT: the core agenda of the Catholic church is to promote Catholicism and Christianity, nothing else - equal rights is part of that, and equal gay rights is becoming a more prominent part of that, with the new Pope supporting equal rights for gay priests (as widely reported).

"They will always be against marriage rights."

AGREED. I did say "I don't think this will ever be to include gay marriage, but civil unions are a very different matter" and the Catholic church's position has always been that marriage has historic, religious and moral content that goes back to the beginning of time, and a marriage is as a marriage has always been, between a man and a woman, but the Catholic hierarchy are increasingly agreeing that civil unions give gay and lesbian couples the stability and security they need without interfering in any way with the tradition of marriage.

"I am posting here to represent the gay people in the world who DO support gay political activism and lobbying."

FACT: you and I represent NOBODY but ourselves.

You may not like the Catholic Church or what it represents - that is your right, but it is other people's "HUMAN RIGHT" to be members of the Catholic Church and to support and follow its teachings and beliefs just as it is your right to be Jewish, someone else's right to be Muslim, etc. The new Pope is not only doing far more to introduce equal rights into the Catholic Church than any of his recent predecessors, but far more than his opposite numbers in Judaism, Islam or any other major religions are doing.

The current position is NOT "as good as it gets for the Catholic religion" as things are very clearly getting better - more could (and probably will) be done, but if other religions took similar steps human rights (and gay rights) would take a dramatic leap forward.

.

Fact: I am an atheist. Please don't play the Jewish RELIGION card with me. That's barking up the wrong tree.

Fact: It was a peaceful protest. Totally legal. Who cares who was gay at that church? They were clearly protesting about much bigger issues beyond internal church matters. I already mentioned what those were in my last post.

Don't you think it's odd to post a video with a virulent anti-gay slant (see the description) on a gay forum?

Fact: The American Catholic church has been very active in American politics, trying to push their anti-abortion rights, anti-gay rights, etc. agendas.

Fact: American Jews are overwhelmingly liberal and pro gay rights so that would be an illogical target of much protest. You are of course WRONG about no gay protests in the U.S. against right wing Jewish factions. Of course the leading gay activists in USA history have been gay Jews. By Jews I mean ETHNICITY, not religion.

I NEVER said Catholics can't be Catholics. If they want to accept that dogma that's their business. The point is when these religions push their dogma on the secular public. Gay activists will be there protesting that, and in my view, that's the right thing to do.

Arguing with you about the separation of church and state in the U.S. is a black hole. You just parroted the right wing Christian view. No other religion in the U.S. and also seculars buys into that reading. The core value of separation of church and state is widely accepted by Americans. In any case, the U.S. is NOT a theocracy and the main forces trying to make it one are politically right wing Christian (largely protestant) forces.

As far as Catholics trying to change their own thing within their groups, I personally don't care one little bit. Their own business.

Edited July 30, 2013 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

This emphasizes my point again: this is as good as it gets.

The church won't/can't change their basic teachings which are of course never going to be accepting of gay sexuality or marriage.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/posttv/national/cardinal-dolan-popes-views-on-gay-priests-not-a-shift-in-teaching/2013/07/30/313fe486-f914-11e2-a954-358d90d5d72d_video.html

[sustento]

Is Cardinal Dolan now the Pope? If not then he shouldn't be re-interpreting what the Pope said.

Edited July 30, 2013 by sustento

[isanbirder]

Just an indication that Pope Francis is not as rigid as his predecessor:-

Despite this, however, what gives some liberals hope is that, in contrast to Benedict's unrelenting devotion to doctrinal purity, Francis has in the past shown himself to be open to dialogue; a conservative, but a pragmatic one. During the gay marriage showdown between church and state in his native country he shocked bishops in 2010 by suggesting they gave their support to civil unions as a means of trying to bargain with the government.

From:-

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/19/pope-francis-reformer-yet-conservative?INTCMP=SRCH

[Scott]

Just a reminder to one and all. Keep the discussion civil. The thread is about Pope Francis.

[Jingthing]

Yes it's about Pope Frank.

So I think his comment about gay priests referring to the gay lobbies was about the rumored gay lobby of PRIESTS in the Vatican.

He was saying he sees gay priests as people, not as gay lobbies.

Nothing wrong with that. It humanizes them.

I don't think it was a comment about general political gay activism in general in societies in general. Not that Pope Frank or any Pope would like that either, but introducing an American demo relating to Catholic political actions aimed at influencing secular governments towards following Catholic dogma in secular law does not appear to be related to what Pope Frank was talking about in this news item. If I'm wrong about that, can someone show evidence?

Edited July 31, 2013 by Jingthing

[Wavefloater]

I was brought up in a Roman Catholic environment until I realized (at a fairly young age ) what a screwed-up religion it is. Even though, I completed all my pre-tertiary education in the Catholic school system, and as a result of that, I have never known such hypocrisy, such a lack of compassion for people, and what seems to be a true addiction to corporal punishment as was displayed by the disgraceful priests and nuns that taught us. Honestly, in 12 years, of all the nuns and priests I encountered I can only remember one nun who impressed me as a human being.

Now, perhaps the basic tenets of the Catholic church has changed radically since I had any sort of interest in it, but isn't celibacy a BIG rule for Catholic priests? If so, what the hell is the Pope doing defending the (apparent) large numbers of gay priests when ANY sexual contact is clearly forbidden for priests? Next, will he promise to keep protecting the gay pedophile priests of whom seem to also exist in large numbers in the Catholic church?

Edited July 31, 2013 by Wavefloater

[Jingthing]

You misunderstand, I think.
Gay just means same sex attraction sexually speaking.

Celibacy isn't sexual orientation. Celibate people can be ANY sexual orientation.

So he is saying priests of any sexual ORIENTATION are welcome which is an improvement of the previous more anti-gay pope.

Of course the church still sees sex ACTS of priests, of any kind, as sin.

Yes I couldn't live with that either as a gay Catholic layperson.

They love you as a gay man but you aren't allowed to ever have sex or an adult love relationship.

No thanks. That's a deal breaker. Gay Catholics who think that's going to change are clearly deluding themselves.

Well of course you CAN have sex and adult love, you just have to walk around all psychologically twisted thinking you are SINNING all the time. Horrible.

Also dude this is not about pedo crimes. That's a SEPARATE issue.

Edited July 31, 2013 by Jingthing

[Simhne]

It is far more comfortable and sadly predictable for all of us involved in this scenario to maintain our familiar positions without considering or being open to what might be happening here.

It is clear to anyone familiar with the Catholic Church that the language, approach and above all gestures used by Francis are very significant. Not only that but if like me and IB you were brought up in the Church and like IB I retain a very song affection for it and it's people then is it not natural to desperately want to see the kind of change we all hope for in such a powerful institution. Personally I am optimistic but I will be watching how things unfold as I am not convinced the curia will give up that easily.

It is important to not be naive about Francis and the Church but it is equally important to recognise and nurture any possibility for dialogue and change rather than remaining in our familiar comfort zones no matter how justifiable they are and I speak as an lgbt activist since the days of section 28 and the Benetton protest in the UK.

Having said all that I've just finished my morning yoga and mediation here in the UK!

[Jingthing]

Bottom line gay sex and gay adult love will be seen as sin or not as sin by that church.

Clearly, that can't change. No matter the pretty words and softer tone.

It will ALWAYS be seen as sin.

Seems to me a SCHIZOID situation for gay Catholics.

Edited July 31, 2013 by Jingthing

[Simhne]

Floater, the gay/paedophile comment is pathetic.

[Wavefloater]

You misunderstand, I think.

Gay just means same sex attraction sexually speaking.

Celibacy isn't sexual orientation. Celibate people can be ANY sexual orientation.

So he is saying priests of any sexual ORIENTATION are welcome which is an improvement of the previous more anti-gay pope.

Of course the church still sees sex ACTS of priests, of any kind, as sin.

Yes I couldn't live with that either as a gay Catholic layperson.

They love you as a gay man but you aren't allowed to ever have sex or an adult love relationship.

No thanks. That's a deal breaker. Gay Catholics who think that's going to change are clearly deluding themselves.

Also dude this is not about pedo crimes. That's a SEPARATE issue.

Jingthing, I'm not going to claim any deep understanding of this topic as I'm neither gay nor Catholic. But. I've never understood how people can talk about sexual orientation and make it exclusive of sexual acts. IMO, unless people act on sexual urges the whole idea of orientation is moot. Don't get me wrong -- I understand that we have a natural attraction to either girls or boys starting a fairly young age, and that is what likely indicates one's sexual orientation, but if it is never acted on (i.e. sex doesn't occur) what does it matter? Sure, what I say is very simplified for such a complex subject, but those are my thoughts off the cuff, and as the topic isn't terribly important to me, I'll quietly back out of this one and let those whose lives it affects more directly carry on.

BTW, the topic of pedo crimes comes up because they are usual committed by male priests against young boys, so I feel that in essence the Pope is also asking for compassion for these types.

[Jingthing]

...

BTW, the topic of pedo crimes comes up because they are usual committed by male priests against young boys, so I feel that in essence the Pope is also asking for compassion for these types.

But he is not speaking about any tolerance for sex crimes against children. So best to stick with the facts I think.

The previous Pope I think incorrectly linked the two issues, tolerance for gay priests by orientation and tolerance for pedo crimes. My impression is that he "cracked down" on all gay priests, not welcoming new ones, not only sex criminals, as some kind of PR stunt. They are not the same thing.

Edited July 31, 2013 by Jingthing

[Wavefloater]

...

BTW, the topic of pedo crimes comes up because they are usual committed by male priests against young boys, so I feel that in essence the Pope is also asking for compassion for these types.

But he is not speaking about any tolerance for sex crimes against children. So best to stick with the facts I think.

Like I said, Jingthing, I'm backing out of this one, but just one last thing. (BTW, don't feel that I'm disrespecting your opinions or afraid to discuss this by exiting. I just don't want to be a nuisance in this thread, and I admit to not having a lot of facts. My posts express my impressions only.)

The gay pedo crimes committed by Catholic priests are documented in vast numbers it seems. So, when the Pope says anything in defense of a priest having gay urges and does nothing apparent to flush sexual criminals from the priesthood, there seems to be a problem. Don't you think it would be good for the Catholic church to make an official statement announcing that there will be no tolerance for pedo activities by the clergy, and to remind young men who entertain the idea of entering the Catholic priesthood that if they have strong sexual urges either way or lean toward a gay orientation that they may act on, it would be better to avoid becoming a Catholic priest? Instead, hasn't it been proven that when a priest gets exposed for his pedo activity, the church protects him by shuffling him off to another parish? This type of action seems not only condoned by the Papal office but facilitated, so hence, the connection I'm making to the Pope.

Anyway, I'll look back in with curiosity to see where this one goes, but I'll likely not say any more or defend my statements. (As I said, they are just my impressions of what's happening in the Catholic church.) If you guys tell me I'm completely off course on this one, I'll accept that, quietly.

Edited July 31, 2013 by Wavefloater

[Jingthing]

Personally, I think the pedo problems in the Catholic church are off topic to this news story.

[Scott]

I think it is best to drop the discussion of pedophilia in this topic. Pedophilia is often confused with having sex with an underage person, and that age can vary from country to country. Pedophilia is not relevant to this topic.

[LeCharivari]

I was brought up in a Roman Catholic environment until I realized (at a fairly young age ) what a screwed-up religion it is. Even though, I completed all my pre-tertiary education in the Catholic school system, and as a result of that, I have never known such hypocrisy, such a lack of compassion for people, and what seems to be a true addiction to corporal punishment as was displayed by the disgraceful priests and nuns that taught us. Honestly, in 12 years, of all the nuns and priests I encountered I can only remember one nun who impressed me as a human being.

Now, perhaps the basic tenets of the Catholic church has changed radically since I had any sort of interest in it, but isn't celibacy a BIG rule for Catholic priests? If so, what the hell is the Pope doing defending the (apparent) large numbers of gay priests when ANY sexual contact is clearly forbidden for priests? Next, will he promise to keep protecting the gay pedophile priests of whom seem to also exist in large numbers in the Catholic church?

" ... what the hell is the Pope doing defending the (apparent) large numbers of gay priests when ANY sexual contact is clearly forbidden for priests? Next, will he promise to keep protecting the gay pedophile priests of whom seem to also exist in large numbers in the Catholic church?"

Where do you get the idea from that he is?

He has, as far as I know, never said anything to defend any priest who does not practice celibacy.

[LeCharivari]

You misunderstand, I think.

Gay just means same sex attraction sexually speaking.

Celibacy isn't sexual orientation. Celibate people can be ANY sexual orientation.

So he is saying priests of any sexual ORIENTATION are welcome which is an improvement of the previous more anti-gay pope.

Of course the church still sees sex ACTS of priests, of any kind, as sin.

Yes I couldn't live with that either as a gay Catholic layperson.

They love you as a gay man but you aren't allowed to ever have sex or an adult love relationship.

No thanks. That's a deal breaker. Gay Catholics who think that's going to change are clearly deluding themselves.

Also dude this is not about pedo crimes. That's a SEPARATE issue.

Jingthing, I'm not going to claim any deep understanding of this topic as I'm neither gay nor Catholic. But. I've never understood how people can talk about sexual orientation and make it exclusive of sexual acts. IMO, unless people act on sexual urges the whole idea of orientation is moot. Don't get me wrong -- I understand that we have a natural attraction to either girls or boys starting a fairly young age, and that is what likely indicates one's sexual orientation, but if it is never acted on (i.e. sex doesn't occur) what does it matter? Sure, what I say is very simplified for such a complex subject, but those are my thoughts off the cuff, and as the topic isn't terribly important to me, I'll quietly back out of this one and let those whose lives it affects more directly carry on.

BTW, the topic of pedo crimes comes up because they are usual committed by male priests against young boys, so I feel that in essence the Pope is also asking for compassion for these types.

Just to clarify things which impinge directly on what Pope Francis has said, rather than leave them up in the air:

While the Pope said that the "sin" of being gay could be "forgiven and forgotten" he also said, enequivocally, that the sexual abuse of children could NOT, so he was clearly NOT "asking for compassion for these types".

[LeCharivari]

Just an indication that Pope Francis is not as rigid as his predecessor:-

Despite this, however, what gives some liberals hope is that, in contrast to Benedict's unrelenting devotion to doctrinal purity, Francis has in the past shown himself to be open to dialogue; a conservative, but a pragmatic one. During the gay marriage showdown between church and state in his native country he shocked bishops in 2010 by suggesting they gave their support to civil unions as a means of trying to bargain with the government.

From:-

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/19/pope-francis-reformer-yet-conservative?INTCMP=SRCH

Very true, IB.

If you look at the growing list of those countries with gay marriage or civil unions what is surprising about it and what puts the lie to the old story that the Catholic church is to blame for holding up gay/human rights are those staunchly Catholic countries such as Argentina and Ireland who now have gay marriage / civil unions. Many in the Catholic church are conservative, and many conservatives are Catholic but the two do not have to go together and they clearly don't with this Pope.

What happens in America happens in America, and American Catholics are no more representative of Catholics in general than are American "conservatives" or American gays.

[Jingthing]

As it should be. The Catholic church should be one thing, the state laws another. Even in countries with massive Catholic populations. It's naive to assert that the Catholic church does not remain a strong force internationally against both legal same sex civil unions and especially legal same sex marriage.

Edited July 31, 2013 by Jingthing

[LeCharivari]

The Pope made his views on legal same-sex civil unions clear when he was in the chair in Argentina - unless there is anything to show that he has changed his views since, asserting that he is now as against them as he is against same-sex marriage is, at best, unjustified.

The Catholic church's position on marriage has always been that it has historic, religious and moral content that goes back to the beginning of time, and a marriage is as a marriage has always been, between a man and a woman, but the Catholic hierarchy are increasingly agreeing that civil unions give gay and lesbian couples the stability and security they need without interfering in any way with the tradition of marriage. That view has considerable support worldwide - probably considerably more than for gay marriage, including amongst many gays (and not just Catholic gays).

If the Pope were to support this view more categorically (something I can't see him doing for some time as he is relatively new) I rather doubt if his influence would be resented by the gay lobby.

[Jingthing]

The ACTUAL history in Argentina as I read it was that the Pope before he was Pope was DEFINITELY against BOTH gay civil unions and marriages. However, when it became clear that the wonderful Cristina Kirchner was going to win on gay MARRIAGE, he proposed civil unions as a COMPROMISE tactic that would be more acceptable to the church than gay marriage. To suggest that this Pope is proactively for legal gay civil unions is absolutely an absurd and distorted reading of what actually happened. There is nothing since then Pope Frank has said to indicate any differently. To presume to think one can read his mind based on his POLITICAL tactic in Argentina is overstepping the bounds of rationality although that is something that "people of faith" seem adept at. Yes I can see the church doing similar in other countries when they are PUSHED TO THE WALL in losing their fight against legal gay MARRIAGE. As a secular person, I find it outrageous that this church or ANY religion is allowed to have any influence whatsoever on SECULAR marriage laws in ANY country. Gay activists will find them in every country as long as they try to push their regressive decrepit dogma on secular societies. We won't always win, but the fight goes on ... and on ... and on.

Edited July 31, 2013 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

A very funny take on this Pope news. Again, it's not as good for gay Catholics as some would wishfully think:

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tue-july-30-2013/a-new-pope

[LeCharivari]

The ACTUAL history in Argentina as I read it was that the Pope before he was Pope was DEFINITELY against BOTH gay civil unions and marriages. However, when it became clear that the wonderful Cristina Kirchner was going to win on gay MARRIAGE, he proposed civil unions as a COMPROMISE tactic that would be more acceptable to the church than gay marriage. To suggest that this Pope is proactively for legal gay civil unions is absolutely an absurd and distorted reading of what actually happened. There is nothing since then Pope Frank has said to indicate any differently. To presume to think one can read his mind based on his POLITICAL tactic in Argentina is overstepping the bounds of rationality although that is something that "people of faith" seem adept at. Yes I can see the church doing similar in other countries when they are PUSHED TO THE WALL in losing their fight against legal gay MARRIAGE. As a secular person, I find it outrageous that this church or ANY religion is allowed to have any influence whatsoever on SECULAR marriage laws in ANY country. Gay activists will find them in every country as long as they try to push their regressive decrepit dogma on secular societies. We won't always win, but the fight goes on ... and on ... and on.

Its called pragmatism. Its what got 35 countries gay marriage/civil unions - and what a lack of has held them up elsewhere.

[Jingthing]

The ACTUAL history in Argentina as I read it was that the Pope before he was Pope was DEFINITELY against BOTH gay civil unions and marriages. However, when it became clear that the wonderful Cristina Kirchner was going to win on gay MARRIAGE, he proposed civil unions as a COMPROMISE tactic that would be more acceptable to the church than gay marriage. To suggest that this Pope is proactively for legal gay civil unions is absolutely an absurd and distorted reading of what actually happened. There is nothing since then Pope Frank has said to indicate any differently. To presume to think one can read his mind based on his POLITICAL tactic in Argentina is overstepping the bounds of rationality although that is something that "people of faith" seem adept at. Yes I can see the church doing similar in other countries when they are PUSHED TO THE WALL in losing their fight against legal gay MARRIAGE. As a secular person, I find it outrageous that this church or ANY religion is allowed to have any influence whatsoever on SECULAR marriage laws in ANY country. Gay activists will find them in every country as long as they try to push their regressive decrepit dogma on secular societies. We won't always win, but the fight goes on ... and on ... and on.

Its called pragmatism. Its what got 35 countries gay marriage/civil unions - and what a lack of has held them up elsewhere.

Bottom line there is no rational reason to believe Pope Frank or ANY pope EVER will be a advocate for legal gay civil unions except as a defense tactic to block legal gay marriages.