Thailand and the Vietnam War

[EyesWideOpen]

A really great thread and sad to see it winding down.

A thought - no disrespect to those who fought but isn't the fact that Thailand did not become a fallen domino after the communists won in Vietnam and Laos proof that the whole theory was a sham?

The principle " architect" of the war in Vietnam was Robert McNamara. In 1995 he basically

admitted he was wrong about the course of the war in Vietnam. And to my friends that went

there and fought, I have nothing but the greatest of respect for them. But that does not change

the fact the war was wrong....

http://content.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1913028_1913030_1913022,00.html

" "We were wrong, terribly wrong. We owe it to future generations to explain why."— McNamara, writing in his 1995 memoir, In Retrospect, on the management of the Vietnam War

[DogNo1]

Not having read McNamara's book, I don't know what he explained but the die was cast before he ever appeared on the scene. If the United States had not acceded to Degaulle's demand that he be allowed to re-establish the French empire in order to gain his cooperation in the rebuilding of Europe, Vietnam may have become an independent country although certainly a communist one. France was, in fact, penniless without its colonies and its re-establishment of its empire was regarded favorably by Churchill. Remember that it was the British who disarmed the Japanese in Vietnam and then handed the country over to the French. Perhaps the reason that Truman didn't hang tough and insist that Vietnam be allowed to become independent is because the rebuilding of Europe was the top priority at the time and it would have cost much more if the French hadn't had their colonies as a source of income.

It interesting to read an account of the visit to Saigon by John F., Robert and Patricia Kennedy in October of 1951. JFK heard from Seymour Topping, the AP bureau chief, that the French were losing the war and probably couldn't recover. He said, "...the United States is resented and even hated by many Vietnamese for her vigorous backing of the French colonial war effort. Later, during a briefing by Donald Heath, a minister, JFK asks why the mass of the Vietnamese people should be expected to join the struggle to keep their country a part of the French empire. What would be their motivation?

In his trip diary, JFK wrote, "We are more and more becoming colonialists in the minds of the people. Because everyone believes that we control the U.N. [and] because our wealth is supposedly inexhaustible, we will be damned if we don't do what they [the emerging nations] want. He wrote that the United States should avoid the path trod by the declining British and French empires and instead show that the enemy is not merely communism but "poverty and want," "sickness and disease," and "injustice and inequality."

Unfortunately, JFK was assassinated and the following president [and other politicians] did not share his wisdom.

[DogNo1]

My understanding of the reason that Ho wanted the Chinese out of Hanoi in 1945 is because they were like a swarm of locusts - poorly trained, starving country boys who ransacked the city taking anything they could get their hands on and gobbling any sort of food available, even eating bars of soap!

[phuketandsee]

"Remember that it was the British who disarmed the Japanese in Vietnam and then handed the country over to the French".

The country was split at the 16th parallel as agreed at Yalta. The British disarmed the Japanese in the south and the Chinese did the same in the the north.

"Perhaps the reason that Truman didn't hang tough and insist that Vietnam be allowed to become independent is because the rebuilding of Europe was the top priority at the time and it would have cost much more if the French hadn't had their colonies as a source of income".

It was not so much the cost of rebuilding Europe - in fact Vietnam was never that great a source of wealth for the French and would become a serious drain - it was fear that France was showing signs that it could itself go communist which De Gaulle exploited.

"My understanding of the reason that Ho wanted the Chinese out of Hanoi in 1945 is because they were like a swarm of locusts"

They were indeed but Ho feared they would never leave and Vietnam would revert to being a province of China as it had been a thousand years before.

Edited April 16, 2014 by phuketandsee

[DogNo1]

Thanks, phuketandsee. Your comments provide greater clarification of historical record!

[Thanyaburi Mac]

"Remember that it was the British who disarmed the Japanese in Vietnam and then handed the country over to the French".

And then the British re-armed the Japanese!

http://britains-smallwars.com/Vietnam/Opening.htm

"... Gracey had no alliterative but rearm some Japanese units to help put a end to the violence."

https://www.sussex.ac.uk/webteam/gateway/file.php?name=smith-final-word11&site=15

Mac

[phuketandsee]

Indeed he did. That violence included a deadly rampage in Saigon by 1400 released French soldiers aided by French civilians who attacked Viet Minh as well as killing innocent civilians including children.

Not much else Gracey could have done in the circumstances.

Edited April 16, 2014 by phuketandsee

[klikster]

If you can lay your hands on a copy of Col. Aaron Bank's book, From OSS to Green Berets: the Birth of Special Forces, you could read his take on Uncle Ho. I'll just leave it there ..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron_Bank

I had the pleasure of meeting the old warrior while living in San Clemente, Ca.

Also, AIR, Col. Bank was never officially allowed to wear a Green Beret during his military service.

[Thanyaburi Mac]

Have Bank's book here, reread it just a few months back. Do like it when his small OSS team jumped into Wattay Airport in Vientiane, spent some time there, then down to Thakhek, NKP, etc, got tied into the conflict between the Lao and the French. Bank's made that trip back to Hanoi, then bummed a Jeep ride with HCM back to the Thakhek area.

Here's a scholarly paper on Bank: https://sites.google.com/site/aaronbankspecforces/

Mac

[EyesWideOpen]

Some great information on this thread, I really appreciate it. I grew up in the sixties watching the war play

out nightly on the evening news . Endless shots of bodies being loaded into helicopters. And I remember

thinking that looked like a place I did not want to go to. I turned 18 in 1972, the last year of the draft.

As I recall if your number was below around 75, it was off to Vietnam. I also recall being very very happy

I did not have to go when I got the number 330.......

[Thanyaburi Mac]

But, think of all the activities you missed, and rather than Vietnam, you might have been lucky and assigned to Thailand.

Altho Thailand wasn't quite a 'war zone" some 1,400+ U.S. military based in Thailand were killed during 1960-'75. The bulk of these were USAF flight crew as they were flying missions to Laos and Vietnam, primarily the north.

Mac

[EyesWideOpen]

"Activities" ??? lol.... The range of experiences from my friends that went there is

astonishing. One good friend did two tours as a LRRP, and when he came back he

mentally was never the same. Another friend worked on the supply chain, never had a shot

fired at him, and said they drank a lot of beer and had a lot of steaks. Another friend

was in the Navy posted on a aircraft carrier, and his feet never touched Vietnamese

soil. He did all the loan sharking on board and made a lot of money.

But yeah, I suppose being posted to Thailand during the war would have been a pretty

good gig in comparison to doing patrols in the Vietnamese jungle..... :-)

[klikster]

Activities? Sure! Activities lead to experiences.

I wouldn't trade my "boots on the ground" around Pleime for anything. The experience changed me for the better, IMHO.

We patrolled the hills around Pleime on 7-10 day "excursions" -- 2 team members and a company of CIDG.

I ran my own medical patrols/visits to outlying Montenyard villages.

I can brag about having walked the Iadrang and to the Cambodian border.

[klikster]

Have Bank's book here, reread it just a few months back. Do like it when his small OSS team jumped into Wattay Airport in Vientiane, spent some time there, then down to Thakhek, NKP, etc, got tied into the conflict between the Lao and the French. Bank's made that trip back to Hanoi, then bummed a Jeep ride with HCM back to the Thakhek area.

Here's a scholarly paper on Bank: https://sites.google.com/site/aaronbankspecforces/

Mac

Remember Sgt. Ballinger? He was one of my "Branch Training" instructors at Bragg. He also set up some pretty bizarre training incidents during the final week field exercise.

http://taskforceomegainc.org/b162.html

SF Medical stuff

[Boycie]

[Boycie]

[Boycie]

[Nignoy]

101.jpgpattaya 1964

I remember BarBos. Believe that's the place I mentioned earlier where I would sit outside and have pancakes and a coke most mornings. A few drinks in the evening also. it was this fella who cooked yourbreakfast at barbo.s

[Thanyaburi Mac]

Here's a fun www site: http://uwdc.library.wisc.edu/collections/SEAiT/USAIDLaos

Then click on "Browse the collection" for a listing of a bunch of documents.

Mac

[green job]

While life went along at a regular pace in BKK, army counter insurgency training was taking place at the same time.......

Tell me why the M1 carbine? at that time you were using the M16

[green job]

The film is realy the bigest load of bull i have ever seen, No wonder you lost,and got kicked out of nam.

[Thanyaburi Mac]

Green

M-16?? Not everywhere. In 1964 the U.S. Army guys at 9th Log in Korat had M-14s....

FYI, the M-1 Carbine is really quite good and a whole lot lighter and easier to handle than an M-1 Garang, the other rifle that was plentiful in surplus.

Mac

[Tywais]

Tell me why the M1 carbine? at that time you were using the M16

Note the date 1964. I was trained on the M1 carbine from 1965-1967 and received a marksmanship ribbon. 1968 I was then trained with the M16 before being sent to SEA, also received a marksmanship ribbon for it,

[klikster]

That was a period of great transition in weaponry, I served from late '62 to late '65. First MOS was 111.x (infantry light weapons). In basic training we qualified with the M-1. Then in AIT (advanced individual training) we had to qualify with the M-14, BAR (Browning Automatic Rifle), and M-60 machine gun.

When our team deployed from Okinawa to in 'Nam Oct '64 we were issued AR-15's, which I believed were 'Armalite' (sp). I thought Colt made the M-16?

Most people think I'm telling tall tales about our ammo having aluminum shell casings.

In our camp we had the AR's, Browning .30 caliber machine guns, M-1 carbines, grenade launchers, & .45 pistols. Our strikers carried carbines and .50 caliber 'grease guns', the cheap and seldom accurate alternative to a Thompson.

My younger brother was a Marine and in 'Nam later. e carried an M-14.

[Thanyaburi Mac]

Ah, the "grease gun, the M-3 but .45 cal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M3_submachine_gun

The AR-15 morphed to the M-16 by Colt: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AR-15

I also trained with the M-1 Garand, liked it, good and accurate shooter. Got to Camp Friendship (RIP) found that we had M-14s so went out to the Police range at Johor for familiarization shooting.

Mac

[green job]

Tell me why the M1 carbine? at that time you were using the M16

Note the date 1964. I was trained on the M1 carbine from 1965-1967 and received a marksmanship ribbon. 1968 I was then trained with the M16 before being sent to SEA, also received a marksmanship ribbon for it,

[green job]

While life went along at a regular pace in BKK, army counter insurgency training was taking place at the same time.......

Tell me why the M1 carbine? at that time you were using the M16

The reason i asked this question is,We were using the AR15 .223 ( colt ) I used this rifle from june 1965 until 1967 in Borneo and the rest of Malaysia, when we returned to the uk.We then went back to the 7.62 SLR We also had claymore mines and M! grenades

America was supplying Indonesia and the uk . Making a fortune. A leaopard never changes its spots ????

[klikster]

America was supplying Indonesia and the uk . Making a fortune. A leaopard never changes its spots ????

I can't speak for the other contributors on this thread ..

BUT!!! I vote to keep this type of politics out of the discussion.

[klikster]

Ah, the "grease gun, the M-3 but .45 cal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M3_submachine_gun

The AR-15 morphed to the M-16 by Colt: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AR-15

I also trained with the M-1 Garand, liked it, good and accurate shooter. Got to Camp Friendship (RIP) found that we had M-14s so went out to the Police range at Johor for familiarization shooting.

Mac

Yep, brain *art. You are correct.

Speaking of .50 cal. The day at Ft. Polk, La. when we were to "fire for familiarization", some cows from a nearby pasture had strayed onto the range -- had to cancel.

Also, we couldn't get a Browning .50 cal for our camp in 'Nam. Couldn't get 4 "deuce" mortars either. "Charlie". had us out-ranged on both weapons -- which probably cost some lives during the siege in '65.

Fortunately for me, our team had rotated out a couple of months prior. Thank heavens for TDY!

Edited May 1, 2014 by klikster

[green job]

America was supplying Indonesia and the uk . Making a fortune. A leaopard never changes its spots ????

I can't speak for the other contributors on this thread ..

BUT!!! I vote to keep this type of politics out of the discussion.

Hi yes i agree,sorry. Its so long ago but it seems like yesterday. I looks like you all had a great R&R in Thailand . We only got 4 days in Kuching every 6 months

Coming back to the AR15 a wonderful rifle,i liked it so much i had one on the farm in the uk until our goverment banned semi auto center-fire

On the other hand if you wanted somone to stay down when hit,the 7.62 was and is the boy for the job.

Most of our other gear was from the US

We used to meet up with your guys in Singapore ,this was when they were on the way to Vietnam, A normal weekend would be 24 to 30 hours on the Piss ( as we called it) a great time.

We also had a few of SF from the US training with us at JWS Kota Tingi jahor ( jungle warfare training school ) By the way i am ex GJ ( Green Jacket )

if there are any around it would be good to have a chat.

Just to Finish,we know you had a hard time in nam,

All the best