Tak Bai massacre: Thai Supreme Court upholds ruling

[Emptyset]

Hmmm..... Sometimes I am not sure why there is a justice system here. Feels like simply a sham to assage farangs who are more comfortable thinking there is a justice system like in the real world. 78 people dead and no one responsible ?? Have a feeling this will not go down well with the Pattani separatists, will be curious to see what they do.

An accident.

General Se Dang assassination with a 308 caliber round, fired from atop a building in a military perimeter: an accident.

Accountability (whether personal or collective) is an alien notion to Thais.

That Se Dang shooting was a very curious affair. I still can't fathom out what possible benefit there could have been for Abhisit and co. to even want this embarrassing loose cannon killed let alone do it themselves in front of the world's media. In fact you would have thought Thaksin and his red shirts would have far more to gain from his very public demise.

Very curious indeed.

Why do you think it was Abhisit's decision to make anyway? Army blamed SD for Kok Wua and wanted revenge, and he was also a legitimate military target given that he was organizing the red shirt defences. His prescence and skills would've made clearance of the protest area much more difficult. He was also shot from an area the military controlled. And it's no coincidence that the crackdown began in earnest just after he was killed. There's no mystery here imo.

[kimamey]

"The 34 relatives' petition asking the Supreme Court to review and change the Songkhla Provincial Court's findings on the case was turned down on grounds that the Bangkok-based court had no authority to make changes."

Cold cold cold. The Bangkok court took the chicken manure route by cowardly avoiding the issue. We all know that the top honcho of the Tak Bai massacre (Thaksin) and the top brass who turned their backs on the unlawful deaths (happening within spitting distance of where they were at the time) - are untouchables. Yet more proof, that you can get away with murder in Thailand, if you're well-connected.

It's not so much well connected as for the reality that the army is never accountable for its crimes, in this case an appalling atrocity.The usual suspects on this forum and elsewhere were more interested in Tak Bai as a way of attacking Thaksin.Undoubtedly he had responsibility as PM at the time and a more honourable man would have reacted differently than the callous way that he did.But he was not personally involved.These crimes were committed by the Thai army with its history of cruelty and brutality.Its senior officers have escaped scot free once again.And the reaction of the usual suspects (unless they can somehow work Thaksin in) .....a long cool silence.

I'm not sure how involved Thaksin was but it's odd that he's apparently not personally involved in this and not personally involved in the deaths during his drugs crackdown of those not involved in drugs. It also doesn't fit with the accusations of murder against Abhisit.

You certainly seem to be correct in your claim that the military have escaped responsibility as usual as it appears they will in the case of the 2010 deaths as well. The police also seem to have a habit of being outside the law.

I don't like Thaksin and would like nothing more than to see him behind bars but the lack of accountability of the military would seem to be at least as bad if not worse and unlike Thaksin won't go away in the years to come.

[Briggsy]

Many posters tend to forget that Thailand was openly a military dictatorship for most of the post-Second World War period. It may have "thrown a [military] tarpaulin of democracy" over the top of brazen military power to assuage world opinion but it is never going to give up its independence and remains poised to step in whenever it feels the need.

Whether that is a good or bad thing in the context of Thai politics can be debated. But it will not be held accountable or have internal meddling over matters like its actions that led to the 78 deaths at Tak Bai.

[mikemac]

Not just Thais. Not to be a Yank brasher, but who was held accountable for the My Lai massacre in Vietnam? A 38 month house arrest in lieu of a court decreed life sentence for a lieutenant, was the best the USA could do. Why would Thailand be any better?

[longway]

Cold cold cold. The Bangkok court took the chicken manure route by cowardly avoiding the issue. We all know that the top honcho of the Tak Bai massacre (Thaksin) and the top brass who turned their backs on the unlawful deaths (happening within spitting distance of where they were at the time) - are untouchables. Yet more proof, that you can get away with murder in Thailand, if you're well-connected.

It's not so much well connected as for the reality that the army is never accountable for its crimes, in this case an appalling atrocity.The usual suspects on this forum and elsewhere were more interested in Tak Bai as a way of attacking Thaksin.Undoubtedly he had responsibility as PM at the time and a more honourable man would have reacted differently than the callous way that he did.But he was not personally involved.These crimes were committed by the Thai army with its history of cruelty and brutality.Its senior officers have escaped scot free once again.And the reaction of the usual suspects (unless they can somehow work Thaksin in) .....a long cool silence.

Nice try but I'm afraid no serious observers agree with your opinion that Thaksin "was not personally involved".

Fact is he rushed to the scene to supervise operations and whilst there in Narathiwat he said

“The protesters had several motives, but the main reason was separatism,” Thaksin said, speaking before the announcement of the 78 suffocation deaths. “I cannot allow the separatists to exist on our land.” He added: “We cannot allow these people to harass innocent people and authorities any longer … we have no choice but to use force to suppress them.” "

http://thechina.biz/...ners-suffocate/

Rubbish.His reaction to the atrocity as I have already pointed out was callous and inhumane.But he was not involved in the Tak Bai incident though behaving dishonourably in the aftermath.You are unable I assume to demonstrate otherwise.Anyway from your point of view objective achieved I suppose since Thaksin is now being discussed rather than the senior officers' criminality and the court system which even now is unable or unwilling to establish accountability.

Its no secret that Thaksin favoured a violent response to the problems in the south and he chose people to fill posts in security agencies there with those who echoed his hawkish line and were loyal to him. They were not known for any expertise in that area.

The Takbai incident was an inevitable consequence of his aggressive shoot from the hip approach to all problems; this filtered down to the way his subodinates tackled issues in efforts to please him. While you can say the `army` was responsible in a reasonably fair broad brush, but if you look at the specific people responsible in Takbai you will see they are appointed by and close to Thaksin. His people were also deeply involved in Kru Ze, while he can just about plausibly maintain a sham of being at arms length from these atrocities (do you see a recurrent pattern that is true to this day?) its just a sham.

Edited August 2, 2013 by longway

[boomerangutang]

It's known, that in Thailand, promotions are paid for, and it helps 'to know' important people. With those two qualifications, essentially anyone can zip on up to the rank of general (or hospital head, or School principle, police chief, or PM, or....). Add to that, the rarity of anyone not cheating on tests.... and the result is: inept people in positions of power. There were mistakes made at Kru Sae and Tak Bai - where Thaksin was top boss (as CEO PM) and army brass called the shots, literally. Who's surprised that grave mistakes were made?

[EyesWideOpen]

Hmmm..... Sometimes I am not sure why there is a justice system here. Feels like simply a sham to assage farangs who are more comfortable thinking there is a justice system like in the real world. 78 people dead and no one responsible ?? Have a feeling this will not go down well with the Pattani separatists, will be curious to see what they do.

An accident.

General Se Dang assassination with a 308 caliber round, fired from atop a building in a military perimeter: an accident.

Accountability (whether personal or collective) is an alien notion to Thais.

Not just Thais. Not to be a Yank brasher, but who was held accountable for the My Lai massacre in Vietnam? A 38 month house arrest in lieu of a court decreed life sentence for a lieutenant, was the best the USA could do. Why would Thailand be any better?

I agree. Lt. Calley represented the worst of America, and Warrant Officer Thompson represented the best of America. He landed his helicopter between Calley's troops and villagers , and told his gunner to fire upon the US troops if they continued shooting at the villagers..

[hellodolly]

So, this is not a ruling on the facts of the case, rather a ruling saying that we will not review the facts of the case. i.e. case closed.

When you consider the deep implications of opening up the Pandora's Box of having the Army being held accountable for its decisions and actions, this washing of hands by the judiciary was inevitable. We'll be waiting a long time for any kind of transparent review of Army actions against civil unrest whether it be in Bangkok or Narathiwat. Maybe the year 2112.

My understanding was that it was just a flat out statement that they picked the wrong court.Take it to the correct court.

Of course that won't help Thaksin will make sure of that.

Now I have a plan. There are no charges against Thaksin for that incident so no amnesty needed. Just white wash him of the charges he has been convicted of and has hanging over his head.

When he returns charge him with the same laws they are using on Abhist and set the court in Yala.

[boomerangutang]

My understanding was that it was just a flat out statement that they picked the wrong court.Take it to the correct court.

The Bkk court was trying to avoid the hot potato issue. Court justices aren't appointed for reasons of courage.

If the plaintiffs go through the whole process of re-filing the cases in another district, it will be sloughed off again. Plaintiffs and their lawyers know it, so that's why it's unlikely they will file at another district. As we know, doing anything bureaucratic in Thailand, takes reams of paper and entails the patience of a Galapagos tortoise.

[Thai at Heart]

It's not so much well connected as for the reality that the army is never accountable for its crimes, in this case an appalling atrocity.The usual suspects on this forum and elsewhere were more interested in Tak Bai as a way of attacking Thaksin.Undoubtedly he had responsibility as PM at the time and a more honourable man would have reacted differently than the callous way that he did.But he was not personally involved.These crimes were committed by the Thai army with its history of cruelty and brutality.Its senior officers have escaped scot free once again.And the reaction of the usual suspects (unless they can somehow work Thaksin in) .....a long cool silence.

Does the same apply for Abhisit as well then? As The DL's rent a thugs seem to think that he was personally involved in the deaths of their terrorists in Bangkok.

anyth

It's a fair point.The issue really is whether Abhisit signed off the rules of engagement covering live fire on civilians.But I think it's significant that whatever their responsibility the practical position is neither Abhisit nor Thaksin will be made accountable for these crimes because that would implicate the military - and in Thailand army criminality is never punished.

I think we can hold Abhisit responsible for 2010 sort of by default. He's the one that could've taken action to stop the killing, whether he explicitly greenlighted it or not. By not resigning and calling an election, the killing was made inevitable as it was obvious that the red shirts weren't going to simply give up and go home. By contrast, I'm not sure there's anything Thaksin could've done to stop what happened at Tak Bai, because the suffocation wasn't known about until after they were already dead. But there's enough crimes that Thaksin should legitimately be held to account for, like the 1000+ deaths during the war on drugs, which was no accident.

I think that's fair.The drugs war initiated by Thaksin was his worst crime.One has to wonder however why Thaksin has never been charged with this and Abhisit did nothing about it during his term of office especially as we know through Wikileaks the amart was desparate to find some charge to pursue him (Thaksin) with.Why ignore the biggest crime of all? The smarter members of course already know the answer.

There was very high level approval for his drugs eradication plan. It turned into a mess, but I even remember senior monks going into the press approving of his actions.

As abominable as the actions of the police were, there were many Thais who approved at the time.

[siampolee]

Must have taken a mighty big lunch box to influence the outcome of this appeal.

[whybother]

I think we can hold Abhisit responsible for 2010 sort of by default. He's the one that could've taken action to stop the killing, whether he explicitly greenlighted it or not. By not resigning and calling an election, the killing was made inevitable as it was obvious that the red shirts weren't going to simply give up and go home. By contrast, I'm not sure there's anything Thaksin could've done to stop what happened at Tak Bai, because the suffocation wasn't known about until after they were already dead. But there's enough crimes that Thaksin should legitimately be held to account for, like the 1000+ deaths during the war on drugs, which was no accident.

Then Yingluck is responsible for all the deaths in the south for the last 2 years, since she is the one that could take action to stop the killing.

[Emptyset]

I think we can hold Abhisit responsible for 2010 sort of by default. He's the one that could've taken action to stop the killing, whether he explicitly greenlighted it or not. By not resigning and calling an election, the killing was made inevitable as it was obvious that the red shirts weren't going to simply give up and go home. By contrast, I'm not sure there's anything Thaksin could've done to stop what happened at Tak Bai, because the suffocation wasn't known about until after they were already dead. But there's enough crimes that Thaksin should legitimately be held to account for, like the 1000+ deaths during the war on drugs, which was no accident.

Then Yingluck is responsible for all the deaths in the south for the last 2 years, since she is the one that could take action to stop the killing.

How could she? Given that the vast majority of the killings have been by the insurgents, does she have power over them? Presumably you're intimating that Yingluck could simply pull all troops and Thai security forces out of those provinces. Of course it's ultimately true, but it's a far more difficult prospect than simply resigning and calling an election. Scarcely comparable, surely...

[boomerangutang]

I think we can hold Abhisit responsible for 2010 sort of by default. He's the one that could've taken action to stop the killing, whether he explicitly greenlighted it or not. By not resigning and calling an election, the killing was made inevitable as it was obvious that the red shirts weren't going to simply give up and go home. By contrast, I'm not sure there's anything Thaksin could've done to stop what happened at Tak Bai, because the suffocation wasn't known about until after they were already dead. But there's enough crimes that Thaksin should legitimately be held to account for, like the 1000+ deaths during the war on drugs, which was no accident.

re: 2010: Abhisit's actions avoided more deaths - that would have ordinarily taken place, if someone less cool-headed than he - was at the helm. If he had resigned under pressure (as you allude he should have, to avoid conflict), then he would have acquiesced to the rowdies. Rowdies already rule Thai politics - I appreciate Abhisit had the fortitude to not cave in to shouts of "Burn Bangkok down!"

[hellodolly]

My understanding was that it was just a flat out statement that they picked the wrong court.Take it to the correct court.

The Bkk court was trying to avoid the hot potato issue. Court justices aren't appointed for reasons of courage.

If the plaintiffs go through the whole process of re-filing the cases in another district, it will be sloughed off again. Plaintiffs and their lawyers know it, so that's why it's unlikely they will file at another district. As we know, doing anything bureaucratic in Thailand, takes reams of paper and entails the patience of a Galapagos tortoise.

Not really that familiar with the court system here in Thailand. How many supreme courts do they have?

[hellodolly]

I think we can hold Abhisit responsible for 2010 sort of by default. He's the one that could've taken action to stop the killing, whether he explicitly greenlighted it or not. By not resigning and calling an election, the killing was made inevitable as it was obvious that the red shirts weren't going to simply give up and go home. By contrast, I'm not sure there's anything Thaksin could've done to stop what happened at Tak Bai, because the suffocation wasn't known about until after they were already dead. But there's enough crimes that Thaksin should legitimately be held to account for, like the 1000+ deaths during the war on drugs, which was no accident.

Then Yingluck is responsible for all the deaths in the south for the last 2 years, since she is the one that could take action to stop the killing.

I half agree with Emptyset.

Abhist could have stopped it before it got out of hand. The minute the Thaksin led red shirts broke the law and the Thaksin led police refused to do any thing he should have called the army in. Instead he gave them time to set up for a long siege.

Emptyset idea was an empty headed one. A true dyed in the wool red shirt idea. He also forgot to mention that Abhist did come to terms with the Thaksin led red shirts only to have them back out of the deal.

He said in behalf of the Paymaster "because the suffocation wasn't known about until after they were already dead"

And the death of the red shirt terrorists wasn't known about until after they were dead.

Same Same Before you shoot some one you know you can kill them and before you suffocate some one you know you can kill them.

[DeepInTheForest]

Despicable, inexcusable, unforgivable, and predictable.

That is how justice is applied these days-- and not just in Thailand.

This of course guarantees a continuation of violence. But there is good business in war, isn't there-- as long as you're safely out of the way.

[FarangTalk]

 

"The 34 relatives' petition asking the Supreme Court to review and change the Songkhla Provincial Court's findings on the case was turned down on grounds that the Bangkok-based court had no authority to make changes."

 

Cold cold cold. The Bangkok court took the chicken manure route by cowardly avoiding the issue.  We all know that the top honcho of the Tak Bai massacre (Thaksin) and the top brass who turned their backs on the unlawful deaths (happening within spitting distance of where they were at the time) - are untouchables.  Yet more proof, that you can get away with murder in Thailand, if you're well-connected.

 

 

It's not so much well connected as for the reality that the army is never accountable for its crimes, in this case an appalling atrocity.The usual suspects on this forum and elsewhere were more interested in Tak Bai as a way of attacking Thaksin.Undoubtedly he had responsibility as PM at the time and a more honourable man would have reacted differently than the callous way that he did.But he was not personally involved.These crimes were committed by the Thai army with its history of cruelty and brutality.Its senior officers have escaped scot free once again.And the reaction of the usual suspects (unless they can somehow work Thaksin in) .....a long cool silence.

Spot on.

Sent from my GT-I9100T using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[squarethecircle]

I sometimes wonder if there isn't more hullabaloo over these "atrocities" than is deserved. Just like the human rights "atrocities" during the war on drugs. There was no trial in these cases but it doesn't seem like the people at the receiving end are is innocent as people act. In the Tak Bai incident, 1500 people gathered at the police station to demand release of soldiers accused of stealing weapons and providing them to insurgents. Giving material support to an armed rebellion, and physically showing up to demand people who do so be freed, are criminal actions amounting to mob rule and should be treated forcefully by the state. At most the officers involved are guilty of negligence. The "response" by the insurgents in the south - cold-blooded murder - also suggests that the people involved are more interested in mob rule than civilization. The more I look into these cases - the south incidents and the war on drugs - the less sympathy I have for those at the receiving end.

[Briggsy]

Demonstrations of over 1500 people are common throughout Europe and the West. Imagine if the govt in Sweden or Belgium brought in the troops whose officers ordered them to shoot at the protestors like ducks in a barrel, killing 6 and then arresting everybody, stripped them to the waist, tied their hands behind their back, stacked them 5 deep in trucks then jumped on them to squash them down, left them in this predicament for many hours causing the death of a further 72 and the permanent disability of many more and all the time the commanding officers have apparently fled the scene with over 1000 people detained in trucks, now many of whom are dead.

Yeah, this is all "hullabaloo" over "alleged atrocities", squarethecircle.