Honda cbr650 2014

[Nithesh]

I have read someone in the US is preparing to sue honda for much higher BHP claim than they delivered. Most people never got more than 70 out of 86 that honda provided. Then again its US, everyone sues someone everyday

Maybe Honda measured at the crankshaft, while others measure at rear wheel.

Transmission and final drive could account for this difference. Altho' 16 HP seems high

I dont think any manufacturer today puts out wheel horse power anymore. Most Dynos aren't calibrated and could show improper figures. This thread has some dyno sheets showing between 73-81 something.

Edited September 7, 2014 by Nithesh

[ll2]

I have read someone in the US is preparing to sue honda for much higher BHP claim than they delivered. Most people never got more than 70 out of 86 that honda provided. Then again its US, everyone sues someone everyday

any links for that reading?

manufacturers always state the crank hp so someone measured the crank hp and found out lower HP? Would like to see it. Sounds strange.

These are the dyno sheets for cbr650f so far. Lowest is close to 74 rwhp and highest is 81+ rwhp. so no 70 rwhp from these bikes that we see.

Edited September 8, 2014 by ll2

[ll2]

Part price list graphic for honda cb650f. In Thai but it gives an idea. Just dowload it to your smartphone to check the prices when needed. Hope you dont need it though!

I believe prices are pretty reasonable.

Edited September 22, 2014 by ll2

[Nithesh]

Great. When the CBR650F arrives, i can order OEM parts to convert it into a naked if i wanted to. If only custom duties weren't so high :/
Does Honda offer OEM seat cowl for your 650 ll2?

[ll2]

Great. When the CBR650F arrives, i can order OEM parts to convert it into a naked if i wanted to. If only custom duties weren't so high :/

Does Honda offer OEM seat cowl for your 650 ll2?

not yet here. but soon, they will release seat cowl and some other parts.

yes, not so hard to convert a cbr650f to a cb650f. Headlight, bikini fairing and triple clamp and handle bar.

Nitesh, no custom duty for these parts, where are you located?

[Nithesh]

India. Production for the CBR650F commences next year and will go on sales in late 2015 or early 2016. And anything that we order from another country attracts huge taxes. 6000 thai baht would be say 9000 thai baht when it reaches me :/

[ll2]

India. Production for the CBR650F commences next year and will go on sales in late 2015 or early 2016. And anything that we order from another country attracts huge taxes. 6000 thai baht would be say 9000 thai baht when it reaches me :/

gotcha.

same for Thailand! 30 percent customs duty!

but cant you get them as spares from the shop you will buy the bike?

oh man missed India! regards to India.

[Nithesh]

Nah. We don't get the CB650F unfortunately. Hell we didn't even get most of the accessories they sold internationally for the 250. Most people pay two times the cost of what you pay in Thailand for a seat cowl which becomes very expensive. So we usually ask a relative or a fellow biker coming down from there to get it when they come home.

[papa al]

I have read someone in the US is preparing to sue honda for much higher BHP claim than they delivered. Most people never got more than 70 out of 86 that honda provided. Then again its US, everyone sues someone everyday

Maybe Honda measured at the crankshaft, while others measure at rear wheel.

Transmission and final drive could account for this difference. Altho' 16 HP seems high

Man, if 15 hp is lost at tranny & chain, those components must get EXTREMELY hot!

...especially the tranny as chains rob only 1-2% (i.e., they are 98-99% efficient.)

[ll2]

I have read someone in the US is preparing to sue honda for much higher BHP claim than they delivered. Most people never got more than 70 out of 86 that honda provided. Then again its US, everyone sues someone everyday

Maybe Honda measured at the crankshaft, while others measure at rear wheel.

Transmission and final drive could account for this difference. Altho' 16 HP seems high

Man, if 15 hp is lost at tranny & chain, those components must get EXTREMELY hot!

...especially the tranny as chains rob only 1-2% (i.e., they are 98-99% efficient.)

check all the dynos on earth and you will find 10 to 15% loss at the rear wheel. normal.

So far we have dynos showing 81 rwhp nowadays.

[eisfeld]

...especially the tranny as chains rob only 1-2% (i.e., they are 98-99% efficient.)

Man, if 15 hp is lost at tranny & chain, those components must get EXTREMELY hot!

What are usually levels of loss between crank and rear wheel?

Could be also that it's just different dynos as we see HP varies widely between dynos and we don't have crank numbers from the third party dynos so a bit hard to compare.

[Nithesh]

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...especially the tranny as chains rob only 1-2% (i.e., they are 98-99% efficient.)

Man, if 15 hp is lost at tranny & chain, those components must get EXTREMELY hot!

What are usually levels of loss between crank and rear wheel?

Could be also that it's just different dynos as we see HP varies widely between dynos and we don't have crank numbers from the third party dynos so a bit hard to compare.

There are too many factors that decide rear wheel hp figures including the weight of the wheel itself, the chain transmission efficiency, etc etc. Ideally a 10-15% loss is acceptable. Yes different dynos show different numbers. Most tuners and dyno shop owners don't even bother calibrating them once in a while which results in either overly optimistic results or horribly low figures than what its supposed to be.

[papa al]

I have read someone in the US is preparing to sue honda for much higher BHP claim than they delivered. Most people never got more than 70 out of 86 that honda provided. Then again its US, everyone sues someone everyday

Maybe Honda measured at the crankshaft, while others measure at rear wheel.

Transmission and final drive could account for this difference. Altho' 16 HP seems high

Man, if 15 hp is lost at tranny & chain, those components must get EXTREMELY hot!

...especially the tranny as chains rob only 1-2% (i.e., they are 98-99% efficient.)

check all the dynos on earth and you will find 10 to 15% loss at the rear wheel. normal.

So far we have dynos showing 81 rwhp nowadays.

Okay.

I'll start checking all the dynos on (earth?) Earth right after breakfast.

Wait, is it the dynos that should be checked, or the bikes, by a dynamometer?

How does one calibrate a dyno?

Of course one would need check the crank output vs wheel output.

How do you hook a dyno to the crank to measure there?

How do you know 10-15% loss normal?

You've done the testing? Reviewed published scientific data? Hearsay?

Thanks for he helpful insight!

[ll2]

Maybe Honda measured at the crankshaft, while others measure at rear wheel.

Transmission and final drive could account for this difference. Altho' 16 HP seems high

Man, if 15 hp is lost at tranny & chain, those components must get EXTREMELY hot!

...especially the tranny as chains rob only 1-2% (i.e., they are 98-99% efficient.)

check all the dynos on earth and you will find 10 to 15% loss at the rear wheel. normal.

So far we have dynos showing 81 rwhp nowadays.

Okay.

I'll start checking all the dynos on (earth?) Earth right after breakfast.

Wait, is it the dynos that should be checked, or the bikes, by a dynamometer?

How does one calibrate a dyno?

Of course one would need check the crank output vs wheel output.

How do you hook a dyno to the crank to measure there?

How do you know 10-15% loss normal?

You've done the testing? Reviewed published scientific data? Hearsay?

Thanks for he helpful insight!

well, no need for a word salad papa al.

if you dont want to check then dont do empty talk here.

of course, we are talking about difference between claimed crank figures and dyno - which is an abbreviation of dynamometer - tests measuring rear wheel hp!

where i know 10 - 15 percent loss? bc i am checking dyno sheets for some time. you dont need to be a dyno master on that!

Edited September 25, 2014 by ll2

[eisfeld]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

...especially the tranny as chains rob only 1-2% (i.e., they are 98-99% efficient.)

Man, if 15 hp is lost at tranny & chain, those components must get EXTREMELY hot!

What are usually levels of loss between crank and rear wheel?

Could be also that it's just different dynos as we see HP varies widely between dynos and we don't have crank numbers from the third party dynos so a bit hard to compare.

There are too many factors that decide rear wheel hp figures including the weight of the wheel itself, the chain transmission efficiency, etc etc. Ideally a 10-15% loss is acceptable. Yes different dynos show different numbers. Most tuners and dyno shop owners don't even bother calibrating them once in a while which results in either overly optimistic results or horribly low figures than what its supposed to be.

Thanks Nithesh for the info. From what you said, I conclude that comparing dyno vs dyno is uselss as they are not calibrated. For the same reason, it is uselss to compare their numbers against the crank numbers published by the manufacturer.

The only use cases for those dynos therefor are

- to compare two motorbikes on the same dyno

- to compare before-and-after for the same motorbike when doing modifications

- to see the torque/power curves - not for absolute numbers but for the first derivative in math terms (or can miscalibrated dynos also affect this?)

[ll2]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

...especially the tranny as chains rob only 1-2% (i.e., they are 98-99% efficient.)

Man, if 15 hp is lost at tranny & chain, those components must get EXTREMELY hot!

What are usually levels of loss between crank and rear wheel?

Could be also that it's just different dynos as we see HP varies widely between dynos and we don't have crank numbers from the third party dynos so a bit hard to compare.

There are too many factors that decide rear wheel hp figures including the weight of the wheel itself, the chain transmission efficiency, etc etc. Ideally a 10-15% loss is acceptable. Yes different dynos show different numbers. Most tuners and dyno shop owners don't even bother calibrating them once in a while which results in either overly optimistic results or horribly low figures than what its supposed to be.

Thanks Nithesh for the info. From what you said, I conclude that comparing dyno vs dyno is uselss as they are not calibrated. For the same reason, it is uselss to compare their numbers against the crank numbers published by the manufacturer.

The only use cases for those dynos therefor are

- to compare two motorbikes on the same dyno

- to compare before-and-after for the same motorbike when doing modifications

- to see the torque/power curves - not for absolute numbers but for the first derivative in math terms (or can miscalibrated dynos also affect this?)

even comparing two motorcycle or same motorcycle at the same dyno might result different. if you do the first dyno test in the cold morning and the second one in hot afternoon, results differ if it is not a controlled environment. even humidity creates changes in results.

not sure if there is a universal calibration for dynamometers. but never heard of.

so, you have to check many dynos of the same bike and find mean average among them. manufacturers all i know claim their crank figure after many tests by finding a mean average.

[papa al]

check all the dynos on earth and you will find 10 to 15% loss at the rear wheel. normal.

So far we have dynos showing 81 rwhp nowadays.

Okay.

I'll start checking all the dynos on (earth?) Earth right after breakfast.

Wait, is it the dynos that should be checked, or the bikes, by a dynamometer?

How does one calibrate a dyno?

Of course one would need check the crank output vs wheel output.

How do you hook a dyno to the crank to measure there?

How do you know 10-15% loss normal?

You've done the testing? Reviewed published scientific data? Hearsay?

Thanks for he helpful insight!

well, no need for a word salad papa al.

if you dont want to check then dont do empty talk here.

of course, we are talking about difference between claimed crank figures and dyno - which is an abbreviation of dynamometer - tests measuring rear wheel hp!

where i know 10 - 15 percent loss? bc i am checking dyno sheets for some time. you dont need to be a dyno master on that!

"word salad" "empty talk"...what the heck are you referring to?

The point is, how could one compute a % drop if one can't measure the crank HP... hmmm?

How does 'checking dyno sheets' illuminate this?.

I guess I'm calling BS here.

...and "dyno - which is an abbreviation of dynamometer"...thanks so much for clearing that up for us.

Also, I never claimed to be a "dyno master," as you suggest.

I don't even know what that term means either.

Sheesh!

Edited September 25, 2014 by papa al

[Nithesh]

Okay.

I'll start checking all the dynos on (earth?) Earth right after breakfast.

Wait, is it the dynos that should be checked, or the bikes, by a dynamometer?

How does one calibrate a dyno?

Of course one would need check the crank output vs wheel output.

How do you hook a dyno to the crank to measure there?

How do you know 10-15% loss normal?

You've done the testing? Reviewed published scientific data? Hearsay?

Thanks for he helpful insight!

1) Don't need to. Go and dyno your vehicle at different tuner shops and check your results.

2) Most tuner shops that procure dynos are either given a manual to calibrate them once a month or will provide a technician to help calibrate it for some nominal cost.

3) Depending on type of Dyno used, manufacturers have their own ways. Here is one: http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/40/86.1218-85

4) You use chassis(also called rolling) dyno for wheel horsepower and engine dyno for crank horsepower.

5) I am an Automobile engineer (Diploma) and a Mechanical engineer (B.E). I have had my fair share of Dynamometer testings from vehicles ranging from a 1970's Vespa to a 2011 CBR 250R.

The 2011 CBR 250R - 26hp crank hp model on different dynos read between 22.4 - 23.xx hp(results available online). That gives the transmission loss % between 14-10% or Transmission efficiency is between 86-90%.

2012 Ninja 300 - 39hp crank reads about 34-35.xxhp on the dynos(also available online) that translates to 12-9% of transmission loss or transmission efficiency of 88-91%.

Now different dynos give different results, but practically modern day transmission systems are never above 95% efficient due to various factors including friction and heat losses.

The 15% rule therefore still holds as an optimistic powertain loss % for manual vehicles . Anything more than 20% loss would be bad engineering on the part of the manufacturer for a manual motorcycle. Automatic losses are higher. Complex AWD powertrain losses are even higher. All components are designed with safety factors, efficiencies and stress limits as prime focus.

Coming to the 650F, assuming a 15-10% transmission loss, the dyno figures could be anywhere between 74-79hp. Pretty sure we have several dyno sheets in this thread in the same range. Lowest being 73 i reckon and the highest reading 81.

To further give you an idea of the 15% rule,

2011 Ninja 650 - 72hp at crank reads between 61-63hp at rear wheel on different dynos. Yoshimura's dyno shows stock as 64.xxhp.

That gives a range of transmission loss between 11%-15%.

Edit:

Again, it is very difficult to get exact numbers from a dynamometer. Best bet is to take the bike to the dyno manufacturer and check it at their own factory setup. Hopefully they will always have their dynos calibrated to the T. Even crank horsepower numbers will vary on the type of engine dyno used, its accuracy of measuring and its efficiency of applying load to the engine to give out the exact crank hp.

Manufacturer posted crank hp is usually an average value of a number of tests performed at factory at different point of time. It will be difficult to replicate the exact figure.

Edited September 25, 2014 by Nithesh

[papa al]

Okay Nithesh.

I'll put this question to you.

Here is my vehicle.

I can take it to be measured on different dynos and will get range of readings on various machines and at different times...great.

But how can I measure the crank HP.

Lacking that datum I cannot compute % loss, so everything else is just hand-waving.

Sorry, I'm not an engineer, only a physicist.

[brfsa2]

Also, just for informational note, there is power losses due to inertia in lower gears, depending on the gear ratios.

1st gear up to 30% losses, on 3rd gear usually 8-9%

a correct dyno test must be run on highest gear, which only 1% power is lost due to rotational inertia.

I've seen a few dyno test and stop on 4th gear. but mostly they up shift up to 5th, or do a BHP, engine braking horse power test.

[Nithesh]

Okay Nithesh.

I'll put this question to you.

Here is my vehicle.

I can take it to be measured on different dynos and will get range of readings on various machines and at different times...great.

But how can I measure the crank HP.

Lacking that datum I cannot compute % loss, so everything else is just hand-waving.

Sorry, I'm not an engineer, only a physicist.

Mostly people use manufacturer claimed output as reference for crank hp. If you really want an accurate data, you should try stripping that brand new bike apart after run-in and connecting its engine to an engine dyno to see if it matches the manufacturer claimed crank output.

The results are never 100% accurate depending on dynos but it will be around the same ballpark more or less.

Now because nobody is really that stupid to rip apart an entire brand new bike to verify the claim or isn't really wealthy enough to do so, we take the manufacturer claim as assumed crank horsepower. I have tested 2 stroke and 4 stroke engines with an engine dyno at my university, and they usually correlate with the engine manufacturer claimed horsepower +/-5% error.

Hey if you have too much free time and money to spend, feel free to test it and report it to us here.

And since you are a physicist, you must be familiar with solving problems with "assumed" data and then verifying it with practical tests right? "Ideal Gas", "Black body"?

[papa al]

Quite familiar with Boyles Law, etc.

However, it is the "practical test" for crank HP that is absent.

If available we'd not have to assume; we could measure and do some arithmatic.

And you must be familiar with the 'Trust but verify' mindset of a trained scientist.

Best take that attitude when considering unverifiable, self-serving data from giant multi-national corporations...or from any source really.

Except maybe Obama or LL...they wouldn't lead us astray.

[ll2]

Quite familiar with Boyles Law, etc.

However, it is the "practical test" for crank HP that is absent.

If available we'd not have to assume; we could measure and do some arithmatic.

And you must be familiar with the 'Trust but verify' mindset of a trained scientist.

Best take that attitude when considering unverifiable, self-serving data from giant multi-national corporations...or from any source really.

Except maybe Obama or LL...they wouldn't lead us astray.

look papa al. I am just going one by one as you have problems on understanding too i believe. So will do like Nitesh as i believe you understand better this way:)

1- You are derailing a thread.

2- You have a chance to open a new thread about this subject.

3- You can also do this conversation via PM.

4- I gave you a proper answer yet you came to me aggressive like how you know? did you test? blah blah blah word salad.

5- Now Nithesh is saying the same things i said to you but maybe you did not like my answer.

6- It is pretty much crazy to test crank hp of an engine! Manufacturers do that for you! What matters anyway is rear wheel hp.

7- You can always google and find out this type of information.

8- You sound weird,

9- Seeshs please.

Hope it is clear!

Edited September 26, 2014 by ll2

[papa al]

LL:

In past blog you iterated that for some reason you never change the oil in your Wave.

IMO being labeled weird by you is a compliment.

Thanks

[ll2]

LL:

In past blog you iterated that for some reason you never change the oil in your Wave.

IMO being labeled weird by you is a compliment.

Thanks

you are right!

[Nithesh]

However, it is the "practical test" for crank HP that is absent.

Okay sir "trained scientist", apparently you don't seem to be training your eyes on what i wrote.

I already told you about the method to practically test crank HP by attaching it to an Engine dyno instead of the rolling/chassis dyno..

You are a physicist, with probably more money and time than any of us here AND you could get into engine testing labs easily and verify it. So please do!

Or if you are really that lazy, watch this and understand how manufacturers put out crank hp numbers:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c37esaT1a04

I request this conversation be ended right here. This is a 650F ownership thread and not a Tech Info thread. Thanks!

[papa al]

Nice video.

Your suggestions seems impractical to me, but if you choose to characterize that as laziness...cool.

Edited September 26, 2014 by papa al

[ll2]

k speed has some new things.

ixil l3x full system for 650 series. 19,000 thb.

weights 1 keji.

x55 19 k again.

not sure if they add performance or if it is fake or not as at ixil website no pipes are listed for 650 series but they have the same pipes for cbr600f.

looks ok.

some fake two brothers full systems.

even one full system for 15 k thb adds 3,3 hp.

also an aftermarket hurricane air filter for 2200 thb.

http://k-speed.tarad.com/product_1055880_th?lang=th&ser=&pn=60&id=&cat_w=

only a dynojet pc5 is missing at this point for better performance.

[WingNut]

Can you now just go into Big Wing in Bangkok and buy one of the CBR650F bikes for 300,000 Baht cash and take delivery right away, or is it still the usual order process with a 3-4 month wait?

Also, when will they switch to selling the 2015 models? I like the red color, but I am worried if they start selling the 2015 models soon that Honda might not offer the same color options for next year's models.

Any word on next year's color options for Thailand in case I don't order a 2014 model in time?

Edited September 28, 2014 by WingNut

[ll2]

Can you now just go into Big Wing in Bangkok and buy one of the CBR650F bikes for 300,000 Baht cash and take delivery right away, or is it still the usual order process with a 3-4 month wait?

Also, when will they switch to selling the 2015 models? I like the red color, but I am worried if they start selling the 2015 models soon that Honda might not offer the same color options for next year's models.

Any word on next year's color options for Thailand in case I don't order a 2014 model in time?

not sure about delivery times, just give bigwing a call.

also end of november there will be motor expo at impact arena so if there are new colors, you can see it there.