Pronounciation of ถนน

[xoxman]

A question for the experts: I just wonder which rule applies to the word ถนน. It is pronounced tà~nǒn. The first syllable is pronounced according to the rules but not the second, it has a rising tone. นน actually should be flat (like in นนทบุรี/non-tá-bù~rii) because the initial consonant is low class and the final consonant is a live one . Does anyone know if this is an exception or which rule applies here ?

[Richard W]

The phenomenon is called, amongst other things, 'transferred tone', and 'consonant governance'.

The basic principle is that when one consonant starts with an occlusive (k kh tɕ tɕh d t th b p ph f s h ʔ) and the next syllable starts with a resonant (ŋ n m y r l w), the second syllable may have the tone it would have if its initial consonant were the occlusive.

Whether this happens or not is difficult to predict. If the two syllables can be considered to be one with anaptyctic vowel, then it is particularly likely. I believe it always happens when a preposed vowel from the second syllable precedes the first syllable, as with เขมร [L]kha[R]meen 'Cambodia(n)'.

[xoxman]

Thanks a lot Richard for that detailed information...appreciate !

[tgeezer]

Have you heard of Thai-language.com? You will find all the rules there.

[xoxman]

yes of course I know thai-language.com but maybe you don't know. It doesn't explain THAT rule but I am sure you can show me where to find it, right ?

[eric67]

yes of course I know thai-language.com but maybe you don't know. It doesn't explain THAT rule but I am sure you can show me where to find it, right ?

A little assist:

http://www.thai-language.com/ref/cluster-tone

[tgeezer]

yes of course I know thai-language.com but maybe you don't know. It doesn't explain THAT rule but I am sure you can show me where to find it, right ?

No need to get upset. Initially I was going to explain อักษรนำ but thought that it might not conform to the English as dictated by grammar books so might confuse you. I don't use the site's learning resources because I learnt from school books but I know that all that stuff is there. Edited August 14, 2013 by tgeezer

[tgeezer]

yes of course I know thai-language.com but maybe you don't know. It doesn't explain THAT rule but I am sure you can show me where to find it, right ?

A little assist:

http://www.thai-language.com/ref/cluster-tone

Well done. I replied in haste without reading your post.

[xoxman]

sorry tgeezer, my fault, didn't look deep enough. The explanation is found in the "Non-conforming Initial Clusters" section eric67 mentioned

[xoxman]

also found an explanation in Mani Book 2

[steveromagnino]

short vowel - when the first syllable is a short vowel then the rising tone transfers to the next syllable.

ขนม same principle.