Syria's Assad says Western strike could trigger regional war

[SinglePot]

And I ain't going there on holiday.

Shame. Damascus used to be wonderful I am told.

Holy Land?

Jeez.

I've heard the same said, many times, about Beirut.

Yep. Me too.

[Chicog]

Was called the Paris of the Middle East and Hollywood celebs used to go there for the casinos.

[SinglePot]

Was called the Paris of the Middle East and Hollywood celebs used to go there for the casinos.

American infidels.

Anybody been winning in the Lebanon since?

[F430murci]

To be clear, are you saying Assad should stay in power so he can keep suppressed and kill the jihadis? For God's sake they are people too and certainly no worse than Assad and his regime.

So, you are sort of defending the jihadis ??!!! Words fail me !

This is getting into a circular argument.

Most of the "jihadists" you both refer to come from all over, to fight for the Sunni against the Alawites/Shi'a.

If and when the Sunni win, many of them will return to their own countries (Tunisia, Bahrain, Saudi, Qatar, Jordan, Egypt, Yemen, etc.) or head for the next Jihad - which just happens to be up the road in Iraq.

My guess is the ones who live in relatively nice places will go home. The ones who live in places like Yemen will probably decide to carry on.

I wouldn't worry about the south too much; even the Lebanese Shi'a are starting to get pissed off with Hezbollah.

But the notion of a roving Al Qaeda rapid Jihadi force is not what I attempted to get across, nor is it the way things are. They are mostly small groups organised by tribe or religious leader.

It's another feeble excuse from Assad to stay in power: "I'm fighting the jihadists! If I don't, they'll take over the Middle East!".

Yeah right.

He's massacring his countrymen like his dad did before him, and let's not lose sight of that critical fact.

But, the thing is these jihadis are willing to commit all sorts of atrocities against innocent people in various parts of the world. It is much better if Assad (or whoever, be it Obama or Putin) destroys them, before they can do any more damage to humanity. It is the jihadis who have committed the terrible terror act in Kenya, which is actually still going on as of this moment.

This exemplifies one driven more by emotions than reason. Haha, then you manage to work Thai transsexuals into the equation on the next page. Brother/sister not everyone, including Syrians, feel your plight that you seem to be projecting when advocating the slaughter of an entire ethnic or religuous group.

Edited September 27, 2013 by F430murci

[boomerangutang]

And I ain't going there on holiday.

Shame. Damascus used to be wonderful I am told.

Holy Land?

Jeez.

I've heard the same said, many times, about Beirut.

In 1971, I was in Madrid playing with a R&R band. All the members, but me, were Spanish gypsies. We got an offer to play a regular gig at the Beirut Hilton. We were about to go, but then the band went out to celebrate one night (I had gone to my hotel with my g.f.) and the whole rest of the band got busted and thrown in jail for 6 months (for drugs). They were celebrating the completion of our first single 45 rpm record, which went to #1 in Spain, but was attributed to another band. Would have been interesting to be a young rock and roller in Beirut at that time.

[SinglePot]

I'll go 9 on the red, 11 on the black.

Roulette is easier than chess.

[Publicus]

Islam v Christians.......with Assad and Putin and their agendas mixed up in it?

Or the free world wishing to get rid of Assad and the Islam fundamentalists cashing in on the opportunity?

Clarification of this Syrian chessboard appreciated.

Anybody know the facts?

'Chessboard' is a nice way to frame it. I see it more as an on-going back alley dog fight, involving every mongrel within yelping distance. Jem Jem reasonably suggests we posters shouldn't devolve to bias and type-casting. I can be that way if I choose to show my decent side, but in the case of Syria, it's a chore to be nice. Those folks are stuck in a messed up region, bereft of habitat and natural resources. It's a relatively small bit of real estate, and they've been at each others' throats, constantly, since before they invented writing on clay tablets.

Thanks.

Given the history and the nature of the problem, unlikely therefore that the West will be able to sort it.

Apart from by raising the whole bl**** place to the ground and starting again.

So. Leave em to it, protect economic interests as best we can and walk out of this bl**** mess.

As for protecting economic interests, wheel and deal. Play a canny game.

Forget Western ideals of democracy and human rights.

Assad and his enemies don't get it.

Now I understand the view that says this is a situation that threatens to spill over borders and inflame the entire ME, but pick any border at most any time and that seems to be perenially true of this part of the world; if not today then tomorrow, and if not then, then for sure the day after that... Time to change the paradigm and NOT involve ourselves for once; maybe time to give the America-haters a break from their ceaseless toil. ...or at least not spend American lives and money serving only to stir them up further. If the feared regional conflagration happens, it's most likely a bomb that would have gone off anyway, with or without our help.

Your points are well taken, especially concerning the perennial America bashers who have been banging away at their keyboards on this one.

However, the worst that can happen is for the Arabs to become militarily involved in Syria. That would for sure ignite a regional conflagration.

Sunnis would align against Shiia. There would be national rivalries. The ME states also would divide on the basis of economics and regionally. Turkey and Egypt would be burnt badly by such a conflict. Iran would have to become openly involved - while the Iranians are not Arabs and aren't technically in the ME, they are Muslims and are too close and already too involved not to be drawn in further.

The only viable military option, if the military is to be used against the Assad regime, is for outsiders to do the dirty work. That means the West supported by all or most of the Arab League, and, in this particular instance, led by the United States and France.

A Western military hit and run is far preferable to the Arabs themselves becoming directly involved. Direct involvement by the Arab militaries would cause a regional catastrophe.

[SinglePot]

Pub.

Outsiders will do the dirty work with or without US military intervention.

[JemJem]

Sorry, I couldn't use quoting here; there was a technical problem.

Anyway, F430murci wrote the following for me earlier in this thread :

''This exemplifies one driven more by emotions than reason. Haha, then you manage to work Thai transsexuals into the equation on the next page. Brother/sister not everyone, including Syrians, feel your plight that you seem to be projecting when advocating the slaughter of an entire ethnic or religuous group.''

My answer is this :

My position is clear. I have spoken out, and I will continue to speak out harshly against both the jihadis/Islamofascists AND also the anti-Muslim EDL/BNP/National Front-type fascists. I am against all types of fascism and bigotry.

Edited September 27, 2013 by JemJem

[Publicus]

Sorry, I couldn't use quoting here; there was a technical problem.

Anyway, F430murci wrote the following for me earlier in this thread :

''This exemplifies one driven more by emotions than reason. Haha, then you manage to work Thai transsexuals into the equation on the next page. Brother/sister not everyone, including Syrians, feel your plight that you seem to be projecting when advocating the slaughter of an entire ethnic or religuous group.''

My answer is this :

My position is clear. I have spoken out, and I will continue to speak out harshly against both the jihadis/Islamofascists AND also the anti-Muslim EDL/BNP/National Front-type fascists. I am against all types of fascism and bigotry.

Taking a clear and firm stand against fascism and bigotry is principled, exemplary and to be greatly admired for its courageousness.

That's what I call setting the standards around here.

Everyone should follow your splendid lead.

[F430murci]

Sorry, I couldn't use quoting here; there was a technical problem.

Anyway, F430murci wrote the following for me earlier in this thread :

''This exemplifies one driven more by emotions than reason. Haha, then you manage to work Thai transsexuals into the equation on the next page. Brother/sister not everyone, including Syrians, feel your plight that you seem to be projecting when advocating the slaughter of an entire ethnic or religuous group.''

My answer is this :

My position is clear. I have spoken out, and I will continue to speak out harshly against both the jihadis/Islamofascists AND also the anti-Muslim EDL/BNP/National Front-type fascists. I am against all types of fascism and bigotry.

Taking a clear and firm stand against fascism and bigotry is principled, exemplary and to be greatly admired for its courageousness.

That's what I call setting the standards around here.

Everyone should follow your splendid lead.

I have no problem with that, but saying all rebels needs to be slaughtered is not necessarily right. Not all of the rebels are terrorists. I guess I am just against killing of innocents no matter who does it and Assad is slaughtering innocents and committing war crimes and torture of a scale that no one has ever seen.

[F430murci]

Awesome people though . . .

"The victim's sentence was increased because her lawyer had spoken out..."

When the defense attorney for a raped Saudi Arabian woman appealed a Sharia Court decision that the 90-lash sentence against his client was unjust, all that was succeeded was the more than doubling of the punishment meted out to the woman who was raped and beaten by seven men, as reported by the women’s rights-centered news portal The Clarion Project on Sept. 22, 2013.

A yet to be publiclly identified female gang rape victim was initially found guilty and sentenced to 90 lashes for violating the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia's (KSA) rigid Islamic law on segregation of the sexes.

The Kingdom’s General Court determined the woman sat in an automobile with an old school chum to whom she was no blood relation, hence, she violated Islamic Sharia Law of gender segregation.

http://www.examiner.com/article/victim-sentenced-200-lashes-by-saudi-court?cid=taboola_inbound

Edited September 27, 2013 by F430murci

[Publicus]

Sorry, I couldn't use quoting here; there was a technical problem.

Anyway, F430murci wrote the following for me earlier in this thread :

''This exemplifies one driven more by emotions than reason. Haha, then you manage to work Thai transsexuals into the equation on the next page. Brother/sister not everyone, including Syrians, feel your plight that you seem to be projecting when advocating the slaughter of an entire ethnic or religuous group.''

My answer is this :

My position is clear. I have spoken out, and I will continue to speak out harshly against both the jihadis/Islamofascists AND also the anti-Muslim EDL/BNP/National Front-type fascists. I am against all types of fascism and bigotry.

Taking a clear and firm stand against fascism and bigotry is principled, exemplary and to be greatly admired for its courageousness.

That's what I call setting the standards around here.

Everyone should follow your splendid lead.

I have no problem with that, but saying all rebels needs to be slaughtered is not necessarily right. Not all of the rebels are terrorists. I guess I am just against killing of innocents no matter who does it and Assad is slaughtering innocents and committing war crimes and torture of a scale that no one has ever seen.

Sarcasm/off.

Who's in favor of fascism and bigotry?

Sarcasm dude, sarcasm. My post is sarcastic.

[F430murci]

Sorry, I couldn't use quoting here; there was a technical problem.

Anyway, F430murci wrote the following for me earlier in this thread :

''This exemplifies one driven more by emotions than reason. Haha, then you manage to work Thai transsexuals into the equation on the next page. Brother/sister not everyone, including Syrians, feel your plight that you seem to be projecting when advocating the slaughter of an entire ethnic or religuous group.''

My answer is this :

My position is clear. I have spoken out, and I will continue to speak out harshly against both the jihadis/Islamofascists AND also the anti-Muslim EDL/BNP/National Front-type fascists. I am against all types of fascism and bigotry.

Taking a clear and firm stand against fascism and bigotry is principled, exemplary and to be greatly admired for its courageousness.

That's what I call setting the standards around here.

Everyone should follow your splendid lead.

I have no problem with that, but saying all rebels needs to be slaughtered is not necessarily right. Not all of the rebels are terrorists. I guess I am just against killing of innocents no matter who does it and Assad is slaughtering innocents and committing war crimes and torture of a scale that no one has ever seen.

Sarcasm/off.

Who's in favor of fascism and bigotry?

Sarcasm dude, sarcasm. My post is sarcastic.

Sorry Pub. I am a bit slow late on Frudays. Senility setting in . . .

[Publicus]

Yeah well, I'd rather not be the one to break the news, but the senility thing has been widely noticed for some time now.

I'm sure anyway I could have done a better job being clear in my post.

[F430murci]

Haha, so scary getting old! I am 46 and my eyes are shit, my brain is shit and my thinking is shit. Thank god my dick ain't shit and I can can keep a 32 year old hottie happie.

[simple1]

Awesome people though . . .

"The victim's sentence was increased because her lawyer had spoken out..."

When the defense attorney for a raped Saudi Arabian woman appealed a Sharia Court decision that the 90-lash sentence against his client was unjust, all that was succeeded was the more than doubling of the punishment meted out to the woman who was raped and beaten by seven men, as reported by the women’s rights-centered news portal The Clarion Project on Sept. 22, 2013.

A yet to be publiclly identified female gang rape victim was initially found guilty and sentenced to 90 lashes for violating the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia's (KSA) rigid Islamic law on segregation of the sexes.

The Kingdom’s General Court determined the woman sat in an automobile with an old school chum to whom she was no blood relation, hence, she violated Islamic Sharia Law of gender segregation.

http://www.examiner.com/article/victim-sentenced-200-lashes-by-saudi-court?cid=taboola_inbound

An off topic post, but it does highlight the moral & ethical issues for US/NATO to support a regime that has for decades been identified as one of the worst offenders for human rights abuse. An excellent example of US/NATO Realpolitik in the region

[F430murci]

Awesome people though . . .

"The victim's sentence was increased because her lawyer had spoken out..."

When the defense attorney for a raped Saudi Arabian woman appealed a Sharia Court decision that the 90-lash sentence against his client was unjust, all that was succeeded was the more than doubling of the punishment meted out to the woman who was raped and beaten by seven men, as reported by the womens rights-centered news portal The Clarion Project on Sept. 22, 2013.

A yet to be publiclly identified female gang rape victim was initially found guilty and sentenced to 90 lashes for violating the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia's (KSA) rigid Islamic law on segregation of the sexes.

The Kingdoms General Court determined the woman sat in an automobile with an old school chum to whom she was no blood relation, hence, she violated Islamic Sharia Law of gender segregation.

http://www.examiner.com/article/victim-sentenced-200-lashes-by-saudi-court?cid=taboola_inbound

An off topic post, but it does highlight the moral & ethical issues for US/NATO to support a regime that has for decades been identified as one of the worst offenders for human rights abuse. An excellent example of US/NATO Realpolitik in the region

Haha, okay. Do you really think people in US think this way. Hell no. We don't even have a clue as to people could think or act this way.

[F430murci]

Awesome people though . . .

"The victim's sentence was increased because her lawyer had spoken out..."

When the defense attorney for a raped Saudi Arabian woman appealed a Sharia Court decision that the 90-lash sentence against his client was unjust, all that was succeeded was the more than doubling of the punishment meted out to the woman who was raped and beaten by seven men, as reported by the womens rights-centered news portal The Clarion Project on Sept. 22, 2013.

A yet to be publiclly identified female gang rape victim was initially found guilty and sentenced to 90 lashes for violating the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia's (KSA) rigid Islamic law on segregation of the sexes.

The Kingdoms General Court determined the woman sat in an automobile with an old school chum to whom she was no blood relation, hence, she violated Islamic Sharia Law of gender segregation.

http://www.examiner.com/article/victim-sentenced-200-lashes-by-saudi-court?cid=taboola_inbound

An off topic post, but it does highlight the moral & ethical issues for US/NATO to support a regime that has for decades been identified as one of the worst offenders for human rights abuse. An excellent example of US/NATO Realpolitik in the region

The truth is Muslim are nutbaggers with a way of thinking that people from the US cannot comprehend. Thank God we can't.

[boomerangutang]

Awesome people though . . .

"The victim's sentence was increased because her lawyer had spoken out..."

When the defense attorney for a raped Saudi Arabian woman appealed a Sharia Court decision that the 90-lash sentence against his client was unjust, all that was succeeded was the more than doubling of the punishment meted out to the woman who was raped and beaten by seven men, as reported by the womens rights-centered news portal The Clarion Project on Sept. 22, 2013.[/size]

A yet to be publiclly identified female gang rape victim was initially found guilty and sentenced to 90 lashes for violating the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia's (KSA) rigid Islamic law on segregation of the sexes.[/size]

The Kingdoms General Court determined the woman sat in an automobile with an old school chum to whom she was no blood relation, hence, she violated Islamic Sharia Law of gender segregation.[/size]

http://www.examiner.com/article/victim-sentenced-200-lashes-by-saudi-court?cid=taboola_inbound

An off topic post, but it does highlight the moral & ethical issues for US/NATO to support a regime that has for decades been identified as one of the worst offenders for human rights abuse. An excellent example of US/NATO Realpolitik in the region

What a stretch; to incriminate the US and NATO for the atrocities of a M.E. country. That's key to this debate about Syria. Though there are probably many decent people who are fighting on each side, the power players are fanatic and cruel. They're the folks who are going to gain control, regardless of which side wins. In other words, it's a lose/lose situation.

[simple1]

Awesome people though . . .

"The victim's sentence was increased because her lawyer had spoken out..."

When the defense attorney for a raped Saudi Arabian woman appealed a Sharia Court decision that the 90-lash sentence against his client was unjust, all that was succeeded was the more than doubling of the punishment meted out to the woman who was raped and beaten by seven men, as reported by the womens rights-centered news portal The Clarion Project on Sept. 22, 2013.[/size]

A yet to be publiclly identified female gang rape victim was initially found guilty and sentenced to 90 lashes for violating the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia's (KSA) rigid Islamic law on segregation of the sexes.[/size]

The Kingdoms General Court determined the woman sat in an automobile with an old school chum to whom she was no blood relation, hence, she violated Islamic Sharia Law of gender segregation.[/size]

http://www.examiner.com/article/victim-sentenced-200-lashes-by-saudi-court?cid=taboola_inbound

An off topic post, but it does highlight the moral & ethical issues for US/NATO to support a regime that has for decades been identified as one of the worst offenders for human rights abuse. An excellent example of US/NATO Realpolitik in the region

What a stretch; to incriminate the US and NATO for the atrocities of a M.E. country. That's key to this debate about Syria. Though there are probably many decent people who are fighting on each side, the power players are fanatic and cruel. They're the folks who are going to gain control, regardless of which side wins. In other words, it's a lose/lose situation.

Just highlighting double standards or if you prefer the realities of Realpolitik. Just so their is no misunderstanding I am referring to the definition "Realpolitik is a theory of politics that focuses on considerations of power, not ideals, morals, or principles"

[hawker9000]

Sorry, I couldn't use quoting here; there was a technical problem.

Anyway, F430murci wrote the following for me earlier in this thread :

''This exemplifies one driven more by emotions than reason. Haha, then you manage to work Thai transsexuals into the equation on the next page. Brother/sister not everyone, including Syrians, feel your plight that you seem to be projecting when advocating the slaughter of an entire ethnic or religuous group.''

My answer is this :

My position is clear. I have spoken out, and I will continue to speak out harshly against both the jihadis/Islamofascists AND also the anti-Muslim EDL/BNP/National Front-type fascists. I am against all types of fascism and bigotry.

Taking a clear and firm stand against fascism and bigotry is principled, exemplary and to be greatly admired for its courageousness.

That's what I call setting the standards around here.

Everyone should follow your splendid lead.

I have no problem with that, but saying all rebels needs to be slaughtered is not necessarily right. Not all of the rebels are terrorists. I guess I am just against killing of innocents no matter who does it and Assad is slaughtering innocents and committing war crimes and torture of a scale that no one has ever seen.

Really. War crimes and atrocities on "a scale no one has ever seen". Yeah, ok.

This is the kind of rabid hyperbole that seems to color the argument for western intervention. Not only is it not even close to being true, it totally discounts atrocities attributable to the rebels. Also, mere non-intervention is NOT the same thing as "support by the US and NATO" for Assad. There's really not much argument about Assad's evil-doing; no need to overstate things.

[F430murci]

Sorry, I couldn't use quoting here; there was a technical problem.

Anyway, F430murci wrote the following for me earlier in this thread :

''This exemplifies one driven more by emotions than reason. Haha, then you manage to work Thai transsexuals into the equation on the next page. Brother/sister not everyone, including Syrians, feel your plight that you seem to be projecting when advocating the slaughter of an entire ethnic or religuous group.''

My answer is this :

My position is clear. I have spoken out, and I will continue to speak out harshly against both the jihadis/Islamofascists AND also the anti-Muslim EDL/BNP/National Front-type fascists. I am against all types of fascism and bigotry.

Taking a clear and firm stand against fascism and bigotry is principled, exemplary and to be greatly admired for its courageousness.

That's what I call setting the standards around here.

Everyone should follow your splendid lead.

I have no problem with that, but saying all rebels needs to be slaughtered is not necessarily right. Not all of the rebels are terrorists. I guess I am just against killing of innocents no matter who does it and Assad is slaughtering innocents and committing war crimes and torture of a scale that no one has ever seen.

Really. War crimes and atrocities on "a scale no one has ever seen". Yeah, ok.

This is the kind of rabid hyperbole that seems to color the argument for western intervention. Not only is it not even close to being true, it totally discounts atrocities attributable to the rebels. Also, mere non-intervention is NOT the same thing as "support by the US and NATO" for Assad. There's really not much argument about Assad's evil-doing; no need to overstate things.

This is what Del Ponte and Pinheiro of UN human rights investigation team have said. I linked and quoted their statements many pages back.

[Sing_Sling]

And I ain't going there on holiday.

Shame. Damascus used to be wonderful I am told.

Holy Land?

Jeez.

I've heard the same said, many times, about Beirut.

Yep. Me too.

My father was posted there in the mid to late-60s and we lived very nicely . . . then the civil war stared and and all family members were evacuated to Cyprus before beings sent home.

I can't remember it as I was too young, except for the looong bus ride to the Swiss Kindergarten from our place in Baabda . . .

A beautiful place judging by my parents photos and recollections . . . but then the next posting was Detroit, so I guess the comparisons are unfair

[boomerangutang]

Beirut to Detroit at the cusp of the 1970's - from one war zone to another

[SinglePot]

Yep. It's a tough call.

Present day Damascus or Detroit?

Maybe Mr Obama would have a useful perspective on it.

[Sing_Sling]

Beirut to Detroit at the cusp of the 1970's - from one war zone to another

To be fair Detroit was buzzing in the 70s, I believe . . . and we lived outside of it in Grosse Pointe - pleasant

Yep. It's a tough call.

Present day Damascus or Detroit?

Maybe Mr Obama would have a useful perspective on it.

To be fair, yet again, Obama had nothing to do with Detroit's destruction

Ah, Assad . . .

[JetsetBkk]

Brilliant speech by Walid Muallem, Syria's foreign minister, at the UN. It's on now.

[Chicog]

Brilliant speech by Walid Muallem, Syria's foreign minister, at the UN. It's on now.

What's so brilliant about it?

Added: Already ended by the time I found the bbc live link.

Edited September 30, 2013 by Chicog

[ABCer]

I wonder how long the Mods are going to keep this topic open? It has become absolutely clear to all posters that the lines are drawn along 'bomb - do not bomb' lines. It is abundantly clear that we have a typical case for open democratic debate. Which is - those who shout loudest are the majority and are right even if they are the minority and wrong. We had enough time and enough posted opinions to draw a line. With respectable posters like Publicus (145 + posts) and Chicog (61+ posts) we do have a winning group! At least Publicus published some interesting facts and was polite. Chicog, on the other hand, compensated less numerous posts by personal insults, the fact that he lives in Middle East and has a piece of Scud missile embedded somewhere(?) Perhaps he is hoping to add to his collection a piece of Patriot missile (?). So, let's advise both Putin and Obama that the bombings may begin. We, the TV members, have done all we could for Peace, for Syria and for Democracy. Time to take a brake. Cannot do any more....

Down with Assad! Voice of Sunni is the voice of the People! Voice of Shiites is the voice of the Devil! Rebels are in their millions! Terrorists are people too, they have Rights! Women and children human shields are volunteers! Putin cannot be right - he is a thug! Obama cannot be wrong - he is black and a Muslim! Bomb, bomb, bomb!...

Of course the winning Jihadists, Rebels, Al Qaeda and other groups promised to leave. And poor Israelis will have to deal with bunch of well armed fanatics at their doorsteps again. But this time they will have Assads heavy arms and chemicals on hand.

My sympathy goes to once again innocent jews. I am sure they will find a way to deal with the situation. They always do. Only this time there will be much more innocent civilians dead. So, the bloody jews could be blamed again. As usual.