"work" in Thailand, how is it defined

[bkkdaveusa]

Now that my questions around a Busines Visa resolved, I've got a question at what point does any effort towards work (paid or unpaid) require a work permit.

Obviously if I am conducting business in Thailand under a business visa, I am working in some context, they are not having me here to sun myself. Many tourists come for a few months and actually work remotely, that is very obvious, so where is the distinction.

Next year I will be here on behalf of my own company, my clients and clients Thailand, not touring around but actually conducting business. I will not be working for a Thai company and will not get paid by any entity inThailand and I am not starting a company here.

I will be here frequently enough rent an apartment, as this will be my base camp for business around ASEAN.

[digitalchromakey]

The Thai Working of Aliens Act has a definition of work that does not include remuneration, so the fact that you are not being paid by a Thai Company does not help ague that you are not working.

Under a Business Visa, you can reasonably attend meetings with clients, deal with your employer, investigate business opportunities, etc, but if you want to actaully work here then you will require definitely a Thai Work Permit.

There are very many threads on this forum arguing about remote working and whether a WP is required or not, but be particularly aware if you are visibly working here and get caught working in Thailand without a WP, then you risk, fine, imprisonment and deportation.

[Mario2008]

A business taveler is by definiton not stationed in Thailand, but rather visits Thailand from time to time for business meetings.

(Semi) Permanent stay in Thailand will require to set up a Thai branch and a work permit.

[JLCrab]

The OP basically answered his own question: If he has clients in Thailand then, regardless of where he is being paid, he is working in Thailand when he is on Thai soil. The 'Doing Business' category seems to be most readily demonstrated when you are here in Thailand to purchase goods or services rather than selling them.

Any risk involved is directly proportional to your visibility (as I now see was mentioned by DCK above). Working online out your apartment is one thing; visiting in person office buildings, manufacturing facilities, and especially government offices is when one would be most vulnerable.

The fact that you might be representing a US company who has clients in Thailand but are being paid by that company and not by anyone in Thailand is really meaningless; you are representing somebody that has sold goods or services in Thailand as the word 'client' strongly implies.

Edited September 3, 2013 by JLCrab

[bkkdaveusa]

Got it. Thanks. Considered this thread closed.

[BruceSmith]

A business taveler is by definiton not stationed in Thailand, but rather visits Thailand from time to time for business meetings.

(Semi) Permanent stay in Thailand will require to set up a Thai branch and a work permit.

Where does the definition change status (semi-permanent / permanent)? Let’s say I predominantly purchase services; be they legal, manual, or other. At the same time I need to supervise the ongoing work and check the result before I accept the solution/delivery, and subsequently ok the billing.

Do you have any advice and/or anyone else know the correct way of doing this?

Hope this is not considered high jacking the tread, as it appears to me to be in the same vein.

Appreciate any and all advice, suggestions, ideas....you name it.

[Soutpeel]

A business taveler is by definiton not stationed in Thailand, but rather visits Thailand from time to time for business meetings.

(Semi) Permanent stay in Thailand will require to set up a Thai branch and a work permit.

Where does the definition change status (semi-permanent / permanent)? Let’s say I predominantly purchase services; be they legal, manual, or other. At the same time I need to supervise the ongoing work and check the result before I accept the solution/delivery, and subsequently ok the billing.

Do you have any advice and/or anyone else know the correct way of doing this?

Hope this is not considered high jacking the tread, as it appears to me to be in the same vein.

Appreciate any and all advice, suggestions, ideas....you name it.

where do you live ?

[Mario2008]

Per above, things as where do you live are a good indicator. Particularly if you are considered a resident for tax reasons. other things can be like do you stay at a hotel or at your own condo, the latter suggesting a permanent adress.

But the law and rules are a bit vague to this, so no clear answer can be gotten.

[BruceSmith]

A business taveler is by definiton not stationed in Thailand, but rather visits Thailand from time to time for business meetings.

(Semi) Permanent stay in Thailand will require to set up a Thai branch and a work permit.

Where does the definition change status (semi-permanent / permanent)? Let’s say I predominantly purchase services; be they legal, manual, or other. At the same time I need to supervise the ongoing work and check the result before I accept the solution/delivery, and subsequently ok the billing.

Do you have any advice and/or anyone else know the correct way of doing this?

Hope this is not considered high jacking the tread, as it appears to me to be in the same vein.

Appreciate any and all advice, suggestions, ideas....you name it.

where do you live ?

Per above, things as where do you live are a good indicator. Particularly if you are considered a resident for tax reasons. other things can be like do you stay at a hotel or at your own condo, the latter suggesting a permanent adress.

But the law and rules are a bit vague to this, so no clear answer can be gotten.

Sorry for logging off after asking my question, but by then it was in the middle of the night.

I have permanent residency inside the eu/eea and I am a us Citizen.

I think there are a number of services that can be outsourced from the eu/eea to Thailand in a way that would be profitable for all parties involved.

For this to work, I or someone else purchasing these outsourced services would have to have a hands-on interaction at least to start with - herein lies my

question:

How to go about this inn a legitimate manner?

Thank you so far for your feedback

BS

PS Would it be an idea to post this as a new, separate thread?

BS

Edited September 4, 2013 by BruceSmith

[Dork]

The best answer I have ever seen to this question is here: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/641477-is-wp-needed-for-online-work/page-2#entry6438172

The truth is that in the context of Thai Labour law, no one can define "work". Not a Labour department Officer, not the Minister of Labour, not the Prime Minister of Thailand. The definition of work is all encompassing so the law can be and is applied selectively.

The best you can hope for are educated opinions. You will get some of those here but even they will vary from one extreme to the other.

Sorry, that's just the reality.

[digitalchromakey]

Sorry for logging off after asking my question, but by then it was in the middle of the night.

I have permanent residency inside the eu/eea and I am a us Citizen.

I think there are a number of services that can be outsourced from the eu/eea to Thailand in a way that would be profitable for all parties involved.

For this to work, I or someone else purchasing these outsourced services would have to have a hands-on interaction at least to start with - herein lies my

question:

How to go about this inn a legitimate manner?

Thank you so far for your feedback

BS

PS Would it be an idea to post this as a new, separate thread?

BS

Hands on interaction/supervision within Thailand will certainly require a Work Permit.

Would you be purchasing these services working with your employer outside of Thailand? In this case you would for example need to form a Branch Office and have a Work Permit, or identify a Thai partner company to employ you and provide a Work permit.

If you want to form a company then it could be based in Thailand, it would require majority Thai ownership and you would need a Work Permit.

You would also need to be aware as to those occupations that are reserved for Thais alone as there are certain functions within companies than non Thai cannot legally perform.

[BruceSmith]

The best answer I have ever seen to this question is here: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/641477-is-wp-needed-for-online-work/page-2#entry6438172

The truth is that in the context of Thai Labour law, no one can define "work". Not a Labour department Officer, not the Minister of Labour, not the Prime Minister of Thailand. The definition of work is all encompassing so the law can be and is applied selectively.

The best you can hope for are educated opinions. You will get some of those here but even they will vary from one extreme to the other.

Sorry, that's just the reality.

Tanks D,

I see your point about educated opinions.

After reading the thread you linked to in your reply, I get the feeling Thailand modeled their definition of work after Joseph Hellers book Catch 22.

BS

[BruceSmith]

Sorry for logging off after asking my question, but by then it was in the middle of the night.

I have permanent residency inside the eu/eea and I am a us Citizen.

I think there are a number of services that can be outsourced from the eu/eea to Thailand in a way that would be profitable for all parties involved.

For this to work, I or someone else purchasing these outsourced services would have to have a hands-on interaction at least to start with - herein lies my

question:

How to go about this inn a legitimate manner?

Thank you so far for your feedback

BS

PS Would it be an idea to post this as a new, separate thread?

BS

Hands on interaction/supervision within Thailand will certainly require a Work Permit.

Would you be purchasing these services working with your employer outside of Thailand? In this case you would for example need to form a Branch Office and have a Work Permit, or identify a Thai partner company to employ you and provide a Work permit.

If you want to form a company then it could be based in Thailand, it would require majority Thai ownership and you would need a Work Permit.

You would also need to be aware as to those occupations that are reserved for Thais alone as there are certain functions within companies than non Thai cannot legally perform.

Tanks DCM,

I see I may be stumbling into a labyrinth loaded with bobby traps.

I was hoping that the "hands on/supervision" would be considered the normal doings of a customer who was making sure that he received the right product at the right time, before handing over any money.

But then again, this is where catch-22 probably comes into play….

BS

[innerspace]

The definition is along the lines of "exerting effort or using knowledge". So playing pool or entering a pub quiz could require a work permit if an official so desired.

If an official claims you are working then you are, but most officials are not proactive in checks unless bribed.

[ovenman]

The definition is along the lines of "exerting effort or using knowledge". So playing pool or entering a pub quiz could require a work permit if an official so desired.

As could breathing...

[JLCrab]

I would say to Bruce that, if he or his company is actually buying services with contracts and receipts from a company in Thailand, then his minimal supervision of said contracts would be within the normal 'wear & tear' of doing business and would qualify under the 'B' 2.1(2) as described with documentation provided as required by the embassy/consulate in particular and as such would not require a work permit.

http://www.mfa.go.th/main/en/services/123/15388-Non-Immigrant-Visa-%22B%22-%28for-Business-and.html

[BruceSmith]

I would say to Bruce that, if he or his company is actually buying services with contracts and receipts from a company in Thailand, then his minimal supervision of said contracts would be within the normal 'wear & tear' of doing business and would qualify under the 'B' 2.1(2) as described with documentation provided as required by the embassy/consulate in particular and as such would not require a work permit.

http://www.mfa.go.th/main/en/services/123/15388-Non-Immigrant-Visa-%22B%22-%28for-Business-and.html

Now we're getting close to a solution that I could embrace.

I want to keep everything as simple as possible.

The least amount of direct investment/employment/exposure; financial and legal - ( not to mention all of the other "Phi" that go bump in the night, when it comes to business workings across borders).

On the average, I would not be able to be in Thailand more than a total of 6 months each year, consisting of perhaps 2-6 week intervals.

A straight forward business visa without a wp

- Possible?

BS

[JLCrab]

My answer would be: If both the company (not individual) ex-Thailand issuing the contract and the sub-contractor in Thailand are both entities of reasonable substance, and the presence of the employee of the company ex-Thailand while in The Kingdom is only to oversee the contract and assure that the terms of the contract and any interim deliverables are being properly met and on schedule, then that would be the normally expected involvement of the client in any possibly complex contract and would not require a work permit per the terms of the 'B' visa as described above.

[GrantSmith]

I'm with JLCrab on this one, applying for a Non-Imm B with an "invitation" from the Thai company (provided that you don't have stake in said Thai company) in farangland should suffice.

[BruceSmith]

My answer would be: If both the company (not individual) ex-Thailand issuing the contract and the sub-contractor in Thailand are both entities of reasonable substance, and the presence of the employee of the company ex-Thailand while in The Kingdom is only to oversee the contract and assure that the terms of the contract and any interim deliverables are being properly met and on schedule, then that would be the normally expected involvement of the client in any possibly complex contract and would not require a work permit per the terms of the 'B' visa as described above.

I'm with JLCrab on this one, applying for a Non-Imm B with an "invitation" from the Thai company (provided that you don't have stake in said Thai company) in farangland should suffice.

I agree with your opinions. They would seem fair anywhere.

Thanks

BS

[innerspace]

I'm with JLCrab on this one, applying for a Non-Imm B with an "invitation" from the Thai company (provided that you don't have stake in said Thai company) in farangland should suffice.

Should..... but not necessarily. And not really when here.

The trouble is that one law suggests one thing and another contradicts, nothing clarified.

The actual law depends on the day of the week, temperature, mood of the judge and whether a black cat crossed your path earlier in the morning.

After the tsunami volunteers cleaning up were reminded to obtain the work permits they required but were not eligible for. Dont know of any locked up but that was the law that immigration were stating....

A director not doing any actual work but simply signing any papers requires a work permit.

A temporary visitor doing anything for a company requires a work permit. Easy to obtain 15 day temp permits are issued for this purpose.

A bar owner who never does anything but is sitting drinking and talking to customers, requires a work permit.

So many discussions like this where people keep asking until they hear the answer they like...then happy that its all as they want.

Work is work and needs a WP. End of story. Doesnt mean thousands dont get away without them with no issues. Lots do. But if the sh!t hits the fan you will suffer, unless your friends are bigger than your enemies.

If you are not visibly working and fine to bend the rules, stay under the radar, but dont claim its legal.

[BruceSmith]

My answer would be: If both the company (not individual) ex-Thailand issuing the contract and the sub-contractor in Thailand are both entities of reasonable substance, and the presence of the employee of the company ex-Thailand while in The Kingdom is only to oversee the contract and assure that the terms of the contract and any interim deliverables are being properly met and on schedule, then that would be the normally expected involvement of the client in any possibly complex contract and would not require a work permit per the terms of the 'B' visa as described above.

I'm with JLCrab on this one, applying for a Non-Imm B with an "invitation" from the Thai company (provided that you don't have stake in said Thai company) in farangland should suffice.

I agree with your opinions. They would seem fair anywhere.

Thanks

BS

On second thought

If Thai authorities do not agree, what consequences could/would I be looking at?

- Fines

- Incarceration

- Litigation

- Deportation

-“Donations” to every man and his dog

??

BS

[digitalchromakey]

On second thought

If Thai authorities do not agree, what consequences could/would I be looking at?

- Fines

- Incarceration

- Litigation

- Deportation

-“Donations” to every man and his dog

??

BS

Potentially all of the above.

Thai Working of Aliens Act 2551 - Section 51.

Any alien engaging in the work without permission shall be subject to an imprisonment of not exceeding 5 years or a fine from 2,000 baht to 100,000 baht, or both.

In the case the alien accused committing an offense under paragraph 1 agrees to return their country within the period of the investigation but not exceeding 30 days, the inquiry official may impose a fine and proceed with the return of such alien.

[BruceSmith]

I'm with JLCrab on this one, applying for a Non-Imm B with an "invitation" from the Thai company (provided that you don't have stake in said Thai company) in farangland should suffice.

Should..... but not necessarily. And not really when here.

The trouble is that one law suggests one thing and another contradicts, nothing clarified.

The actual law depends on the day of the week, temperature, mood of the judge and whether a black cat crossed your path earlier in the morning.

After the tsunami volunteers cleaning up were reminded to obtain the work permits they required but were not eligible for. Dont know of any locked up but that was the law that immigration were stating....

A director not doing any actual work but simply signing any papers requires a work permit.

A temporary visitor doing anything for a company requires a work permit. Easy to obtain 15 day temp permits are issued for this purpose.

A bar owner who never does anything but is sitting drinking and talking to customers, requires a work permit.

So many discussions like this where people keep asking until they hear the answer they like...then happy that its all as they want.

Work is work and needs a WP. End of story. Doesnt mean thousands dont get away without them with no issues. Lots do. But if the sh!t hits the fan you will suffer, unless your friends are bigger than your enemies.

If you are not visibly working and fine to bend the rules, stay under the radar, but dont claim its legal.

The problem is not that I am waiting for the answer I want.

I definitely want the "correct" answer - simply to stay out of trouble.

My reasoning is:

I am a customer and therefore think I have certain rights

I wish to ascertain I am in fact receiving products containing my specifications in the manner I feel correct and diligent.

The problem here is I can in no way get my head around the fact that this can be construed as "work".

Calling due diligence by a customer work is making a problem, not solving one, again IMHO.

If your version of this is the correct, Thailand may not be worth the hassle.

The world including the rest of S-E Asia is full of alternatives.

BS

[Sceptict11]

Easy !

Working = making money

Dole bludging = receiving money for no work !

[BruceSmith]

On second thought

If Thai authorities do not agree, what consequences could/would I be looking at?

- Fines

- Incarceration

- Litigation

- Deportation

-“Donations” to every man and his dog

??

BS

Potentially all of the above.

Thai Working of Aliens Act 2551 - Section 51.

Any alien engaging in the work without permission shall be subject to an imprisonment of not exceeding 5 years or a fine from 2,000 baht to 100,000 baht, or both.

In the case the alien accused committing an offense under paragraph 1 agrees to return their country within the period of the investigation but not exceeding 30 days, the inquiry official may impose a fine and proceed with the return of such alien.

I was hoping for some elaboration

Maybe from someone who has: been there + done that

After all it all boils down to considering the pros and cons of as many variables as possible.

BS

[JLCrab]

If you are waiting for someone from a substantial ex-Thai company who has contracted or sub-contracted with a substantial Thai company for a software development, engineering, architectural or product manufacturing project to come on here and describe his experience as to whether a work permit was required or not for the minimal oversight required of such projects, i think you will have a long wait. The MFA has 2 categories of 'B' visas: one which requires a WP to be shown and one which doesn't.

All the horror outcomes as described above would apply to the more common poster who wants a Thai company to hire him or his one-man company and send the billing to Vanuatu or someplace. To get an answer of any first-hand experience might require contacting a lawyer like T&G who has direct experience in such matters and represents the big ex-Thai companies who bring such projects into Thailand.

[BruceSmith]

If you are waiting for someone from a substantial ex-Thai company who has contracted or sub-contracted with a substantial Thai company for a software development, engineering, architectural or product manufacturing project to come on here and describe his experience as to whether a work permit was required or not for the minimal oversight required of such projects, i think you will have a long wait. The MFA has 2 categories of 'B' visas: one which requires a WP to be shown and one which doesn't.

All the horror outcomes as described above would apply to the more common poster who wants a Thai company to hire him or his one-man company and send the billing to Vanuatu or someplace. To get an answer of any first-hand experience might require contacting a lawyer like T&G who has direct experience in such matters and represents the big ex-Thai companies who bring such projects into Thailand.

As you seem to have deduced, I indeed am fishing, in this pond as well as others.

In that respect I must say: thank you everyone for your thoughts, opinions, links and contributions.

All in all a worthwhile endeavour from my point of view.

I was not expecting all that much.

I am impressed.

At least now, if and when the choosen path is Thailand, the scamming will have to be on a higher level than before!.

Until next time - Talk to my lawyer

BS

[ubonjoe]

IMHO I think whether you had a serious problem with not having a work permit would depend upon how much time you had spent in the country.

Just flying in and out to do quality control (qa/qc) would be allowable but staying here nearly full time would not be.

Edited September 6, 2013 by ubonjoe

[JLCrab]

BruceS said at post #17: "On the average, I would not be able to be in Thailand more than a total of 6 months each year, consisting of perhaps 2-6 week intervals."

How any 'competent official' in Immigration might look at the described supervisory or oversight status might be greatly influenced by the size and scope of any contract.

An example might be wherein a company retains a Thai architectural firm to design an office complex but the complex is to be built in Myanmar not in Thailand. Why would it be suggested that an employee of the ex-Thai contracting firm would need a work permit to supervise at regular intervals the work and scheduled deliverables of the contracted architectural firm?