Docked staff pay for missing funds

[Concerned Relative]

Is it acceptable/legal in Thailand for a large hotel chain to recuperate stolen/lost funds by docking staff pay?

I'm not comfortable sharing specifics at the moment for fear of further retribution against the staff, but the amount missing was in the 6 figures (THB), and each of the staff in the department are to be docked about the equivalent of a month's salary for a supervisor. To emphasize how much that is, it equates to about 300 hours of work for a regular employee.

So far as I know, there aren't any leads, so management is holding everyone to blame.

[Briggsy]

What do their work contracts state?

Start there. Each employer will have different terms and conditions in their contracts of employment.

If you can't read Thai, scan it and post it here. Many people, including me, can translate it.

[NamKangMan]

I wouldn't want to be the boss docking staff that harshly. The boss may find some severe reprisal coming their way.

In any case, it would seem the business has some poor cash handling systems in place.

Was the matter reported to police?

Edited September 9, 2013 by NamKangMan

[CiaranO]

YES is the answer and not just hotels but 7 11s and other such business's.

It may be in there contract but also contained in company rules and regulations which they signed up too.

Unless your involved in it directly I would stay well clear of the situation

[Somchai Mao]

This is the norm in Thailand. Hotels, gogo bars, 7/11, supermarkets. Don't try to be the all-knowing farang and become involved. To really set your cap on fire they are also fined for being late for work. It's a tough country, farang generally only see the smiles and not the reality. Nothing you do will change anything.

[GrantSmith]

Is it acceptable/legal in Thailand for a large hotel chain to recuperate stolen/lost funds by docking staff pay?

I'm not comfortable sharing specifics at the moment for fear of further retribution against the staff, but the amount missing was in the 6 figures (THB), and each of the staff in the department are to be docked about the equivalent of a month's salary for a supervisor. To emphasize how much that is, it equates to about 300 hours of work for a regular employee.

So far as I know, there aren't any leads, so management is holding everyone to blame.

Sounds like a ploy to get the blagger to fess up...

If you are going to reveal further details, be sure to employ the tactics from the play book of a certain former DPM with the first initial C, just to avoid be slapped with a libel or defamation lawsuit...

[wooloomooloo]

To emphasize how much that is, it equates to about 300 hours of work for a regular employee.

Why doesn't your relative leave the business and therefore not have to work 300 hours to pay the debt?

[Somtamnication]

A full month's pay? That is harsh. Most hospitality places keep %30 of service charge for breakage and "losses". They must have lost 50k????

[Riley'sLife]

To emphasize how much that is, it equates to about 300 hours of work for a regular employee.

Why doesn't your relative leave the business and therefore not have to work 300 hours to pay the debt?

The answer is in the words.... "...it equates to...".

Rather obviously, the hours have already been worked and payment withheld.

Your question makes me wonder where you have experience of having been paid in advance for your labour.

[Old Croc]

A full month's pay? That is harsh. Most hospitality places keep %30 of service charge for breakage and "losses". They must have lost 50k????

The OP said 6 figures. Over 100,000.

[Old Croc]

To emphasize how much that is, it equates to about 300 hours of work for a regular employee.

Why doesn't your relative leave the business and therefore not have to work 300 hours to pay the debt?

The answer is in the words.... "...it equates to...".

Rather obviously, the hours have already been worked and payment withheld.

Your question makes me wonder where you have experience of having been paid in advance for your labour.

We had a pool cleaner who wanted a years pay in advance. Instead we terminated his employment.

He disappeared from Phuket a bit later.

[CWMcMurray]

Would guess a fair number of employees may decide to leave...

They may not get their salary for previous month, but I can't see many accepting to work for free for 2.5 months

Sent from my iPhone using ThaiVisa app

[Concerned Relative]

Thanks all for the advice, even that which suggests I stay well away.

It turns out that yesterday management held a "meeting" and "advised" all the staff in the department to sign a form. I don't know exactly what the form said, but it grants the hotel permission to withhold the funds. Sadly, I suspect that it was also an acknowledgement of failure of duty.

Having talked directly with the staff, I can tell you that at the moment, they are all too scared to resign. Justified in their thinking or not, they are all under the impression that if they resign, the police will become directly involved with their life for a while (as a prime suspect of a large theft). As to quitting to avoid paying, they are well aware that if they leave now, they will never see another baht from the hotel, which is a bit hard to deal with nearing the end of low season.

I am directly involved only in the sense this takes away a month's rent, utilities, and our child's savings deposit out of our pockets. We will, of course, be fine, but I don't have to be happy about it. I have no intention of creating a big s@#$storm over it, but I certainly am going to ask enough questions and do enough research until I'm convinced that nothing can be done. (A point which I suspect was reached upon staff signing that form.)

I am not so naive as to think this doesn't happen in this country, nor do I feel that we have singly been screwed over. It stings pretty good though, knowing that someone didn't do anything wrong (and has been working a crazy schedule with extra hours) only to be unjustly punished financially.

To change the course of the conversation a bit, is there anything that can be done to protect against this in the future, or is this ultimately another addition to the growing 'pack up and get out' list?

[eezergood]

Thats a lot of cash for a hotel! How many people pay in cash now? I have worked in hotels for years and its very unusual to have that much cash these days - Internatinal/large hotels not local places

[Concerned Relative]

Cash room deposits in international currency were being kept in a very ill-advised location.

[eezergood]

Again strange that cash deposits are used, I cant remember the last time I did that! Your relative needs to read his/her code of conduct handbook or have the rules given to them by HR. If it is a large company they will have, an independant I am not so sure

[Briggsy]

Chinese hotels (i.e. mainland China) and by extension Chinese hotel guests use the cash deposit system for breakages. Unusual in Thailand but if the hotel caters to mainland Chinese, this is no surprise.

[steelepulse]

If the hotel in question did not do anything in relation to this incident, you can guarantee it would happen again. Perhaps taking this stance will help the hotel catch the thief as employees can't be too happy about getting their pay docked due to a thief amongst them. That having been said, perhaps better quality control of cash handling needs to be utilized.

[NamKangMan]

I'll ask again, was the matter reported to police? If not, why not?

It would seem only middle to upper management would have access to over 100,000 baht cash - the same people who have probably stolen it, are now making everyone pay for it, and are possibly refusing to report it to the police.

I agree with SP. If it's only being handled internally - it will happen again.

Of course, there is one other explanation - the hotel may be going broke, and can't pay its bills, Eg. staff salary.

[Concerned Relative]

I'll ask again, was the matter reported to police? If not, why not?

It would seem only middle to upper management would have access to over 100,000 baht cash - the same people who have probably stolen it, are now making everyone pay for it, and are possibly refusing to report it to the police.

I agree with SP. If it's only being handled internally - it will happen again.

Of course, there is one other explanation - the hotel may be going broke, and can't pay its bills, Eg. staff salary.

Sorry, NamKangMan, I meant to answer your question before. Yes, the matter was reported to police, albeit belatedly. As for the cash, it was shockingly (yet not surprisingly) accessible to all the staff and pretty much anybody else that would have paid attention to it. It has since been relocated to something called a "safe".

I can't of course make accusations, but your statement about middle management has a ring of truth to it. Most of the staff in the department have worked at the hotel for more than a year, many of them two or more. Of the three new staff, the one in the elevated position has several times (before the incident) turned a single day's leave into several, sometimes with no call. If I were to take a wild guess...

[NamKangMan]

I'll ask again, was the matter reported to police? If not, why not?

It would seem only middle to upper management would have access to over 100,000 baht cash - the same people who have probably stolen it, are now making everyone pay for it, and are possibly refusing to report it to the police.

I agree with SP. If it's only being handled internally - it will happen again.

Of course, there is one other explanation - the hotel may be going broke, and can't pay its bills, Eg. staff salary.

Sorry, NamKangMan, I meant to answer your question before. Yes, the matter was reported to police, albeit belatedly. As for the cash, it was shockingly (yet not surprisingly) accessible to all the staff and pretty much anybody else that would have paid attention to it. It has since been relocated to something called a "safe".

I can't of course make accusations, but your statement about middle management has a ring of truth to it. Most of the staff in the department have worked at the hotel for more than a year, many of them two or more. Of the three new staff, the one in the elevated position has several times (before the incident) turned a single day's leave into several, sometimes with no call. If I were to take a wild guess...

Is there any CCTV? Is there any "handover" of cash on site by staff coming on shift?

Surely, the suspect list can be narrowed down by police.

You already have a suspect, and it sounds like she is a relation of someone in management.

[pookiki]

The Thai Labour Code is available online. You might want to look at it. From my experience with Thai workers, I know that 'fines' are imposed for being late for work. I never heard of money being withheld from a person's paycheck for missing money but that certainly doesn't mean it hasn't happened. From a 'logical' standpoint, I am not sure why an employer would want to keep a person employed who has been involved in alleged theft. If there isn't sufficient evidence that the employees were directly involved in appropriating the missing money, they should consider filing a complaint with the Department of Labour - if they have the courage.

[DekDaeng]

Cash room deposits in international currency were being kept in a very ill-advised location.

In that case hotel should wear at least 50% of the loss.

[KarenBravo]

The hotel should eat 100% of the costs for keeping money in a stupid place.

Yes, there's a thief, but why penalize innocents with collective punishment?

Edited September 11, 2013 by KarenBravo

[Ping]

There have been two thefts - the theft of the original money and the theft by the hotel of the employees' wages. Disgraceful.

[Concerned Relative]

The CCTV exists, but I can't say if it is of a quality that would be of any use whatsoever. That's up to the police now.

A member of the labor office in Phuket Town stated that this practice is, in fact, illegal according to Thai labor law. Even in cases where the staff has 'agreed' to pay, a request made by the staff to the labor office would allow them to set up a meeting with hotel management/owners. Staff have now been informed of this option and I expect that, so long as it isn't a legal proceeding, a contingent of them will make this request from the labor office soon.

From my perspective, the chances of stopping it are much less since the signing of the forms, but I hope that the labor office will respect the fact that the staff were not exactly given the option to sign the form, nor were they given time to seek advice concerning it, nor were they even given a copy of it. Furthermore, though the theft has been reported to police, they have not even conducted any interviews as of yet.

It sounds like someone in management knew that this was wrong, knew the power that employee signatures would have, and pushed the whole thing to be done as quickly as possible, rendering the employees powerless.

[GrantSmith]

If the practise is illegal, staff signing waivers of claims would have no bearing on the outcome if the MOL was to take up a case.

I'm sure the Minister responsible for this portfolio would love to get involved...

[Concerned Relative]

Just to update/add closure to this topic:

The staff eventually went to the labor office to discuss their options. As expected, the officer there claimed that, due to the signed form, there were no grounds to investigate the hotel. He did, however, give specific advice as to how the staff should proceed to open a discussion with ownership/upper management.

The staff then wrote a letter to the owner stating their complaint. (The owner evidently was aware of the theft, but had not been told about the plan to recover funds from the staff.) A few members of regional management had a scheduled audit shortly thereafter and sat down for a (mandatory, unpaid if not on shift) meeting with the staff to discuss the issue.

About a week and a half later, a second unpaid meeting was held at which it was announced that ownership and management had agreed to "support" the staff by covering 40% of the loss. This reduced the amount to approximately one month's salary for a regular employee.

I expect that this will be the end of the issue, as I don't think anyone involved has the means or inclination to start a legal battle over what would ultimately be an interpretation of coercion and intimidation, seeing as they all "agreed" to cover the loss. I also expect that employee turnover in the next six months might be higher than usual.

Thanks for any advice that was given. I hope that in the future someone might be saved from making the same mistake and some good will come of it.

[hansgruber]

No wonder employees steal from their employer.

No loyalty or regard for honest mistakes.

[monkeycountry]

^{Simply call the labour office, they would know if it is legal or not.}

^{Sorry, saw you already did that, so forget my post}

Edited October 31, 2013 by monkeycountry