Slient Carrier

[Delight]

The letter อ acts as a silent vowel carrier at the beginning of words that start with a vowel (borrowed this definition from Omniglot)

Can someone please explain อบ meaning to bake ? Logically it should read ออบ Could it be that the vowel is simply omitted ?

It is further complicated as the vowel its spoken short.

If there is an extended and logical explanation for all this- if so ,I would be glad to hear it

Edited September 12, 2013 by Delight

[tgeezer]

I think that the vowel โอะ is omitted as it is in รถ รส มด etc. many people think that it is a short ออ or เอาะ .

Also if you see ออ the first is the consonant and the second is the vowel, อ is the consonant chosen to make saying a vowel possible: อา, อี, and ออ is the vowel chosen to make it possible to say a consonant. : กอ ไก่ ขอไข่

Edited September 12, 2013 by tgeezer

[Richard W]

Strictly, อ is not silent as the initial consonant. It actually represents a glottal stop.

[partington]

Strictly, อ is not silent as the initial consonant. It actually represents a glottal stop.

This is not actually the case.

You can see this with the name of the Bangkok skytrain station On Nut, which is pronounced with the first syllable like the beginning of the english word "ornithology" - this is NOT a glottal stop, but the word is nonetheless spelt ออน นูช.

As mentioned above, อ is a silent but necessary consonant, because it is a rule of Thai grammar that all syllables, even if they are pronounced starting with a vowel sound (glottal stop or not), must be written beginning with a consonant.

In the OP's original example the vowel is an understood or implied vowel, that is therefore not written (as is common in many Thai words), but because it is the first sound when spoken, the อ is necessary to indicate "this word is spoken starting with the unwritten but implied vowel".

Edit: to correct my indication of how to pronounce On Nut!

Edited September 12, 2013 by partington

[CaptHaddock]

Strictly, อ is not silent as the initial consonant. It actually represents a glottal stop.

This is not actually the case.

You can see this with the name of the Bangkok skytrain station On Nut, which is pronounced with the first syllable like the beginning of the english word "ornithology" - this is NOT a glottal stop, but the word is nonetheless spelt ออน นูช.

As mentioned above, อ is a silent but necessary consonant, because it is a rule of Thai grammar that all syllables, even if they are pronounced starting with a vowel sound (glottal stop or not), must be written beginning with a consonant.

In the OP's original example the vowel is an understood or implied vowel, that is therefore not written (as is common in many Thai words), but because it is the first sound when spoken, the อ is necessary to indicate "this word is spoken starting with the unwritten but implied vowel".

Edit: to correct my indication of how to pronounce On Nut!

Not correct. The first "อ" is the consonant called ออ อ่าง and it as pronounced as a glottal stop. The degree to which a given speaker may articulate it in a given word will vary. So, you may not always hear it, but that's what it is.

There is also another leading consonant called ออ นำ that is truly silent, only having the effect of changing the class of the consonant that follows it from low class to high class. There are only four words that have the ออ นำ: อย่า อยาก อย่าง and one other which I forget at the moment.

[AyG]

"Can someone please explain อบ meaning to bake ? Logically it should read ออบ Could it be that the vowel is simply omitted ?"

อบ is pronounced ʔòp

ออบ would be pronounced ʔɔ̀ɔp

(ʔ is the symbol for glottal stop, and is usually omitted in most systems of romanisation.)

Note the difference (i) in the vowel sound, and (ii) in the vowel length.

As with some other languages, Thai doesn't write all vowels. (Technically, Thai is an abugida.) Between two consonants the default vowel sound (where no vowel is written) is generally /o/. In both sample words, the initial อ is a "silent consonant" - in fact pronounced as a glottal stop as Richard W pointed out. In ออบ the second อ is pronounced as the long vowel sound /ɔ:/, but in อบ there is no written vowel, so /o/ is used.

FWIW the final word with ออ นำ is อยู่.

[tgeezer]

"Can someone please explain อบ meaning to bake ? Logically it should read ออบ Could it be that the vowel is simply omitted ?"

อบ is pronounced ʔòp

ออบ would be pronounced ʔɔ̀ɔp

(ʔ is the symbol for glottal stop, and is usually omitted in most systems of romanisation.)

Note the difference (i) in the vowel sound, and (ii) in the vowel length.

As with some other languages, Thai doesn't write all vowels. (Technically, Thai is an abugida.) Between two consonants the default vowel sound (where no vowel is written) is generally /o/. In both sample words, the initial อ is a "silent consonant" - in fact pronounced as a glottal stop as Richard W pointed out. In ออบ the second อ is pronounced as the long vowel sound /ɔ:/, but in อบ there is no written vowel, so /o/ is used.

FWIW the final word with ออ นำ is อยู่.

Why not just say that in order to transcribe this word in English you need to show a glo?al stop ? *

But this post is about how thai is written in Thai so I doubt that the writer is interested in ? .

Incidentally does /o/ represent โอะ ?

The answer to his question is 'yes' .

"Can someone please explain อบ meaning to bake ? Logically it should read ออบ Could it be that the vowel is simply omitted ?"

*Edited to completely re-write, hopelessly confused trying to mix the languages.

Edited September 13, 2013 by tgeezer

[partington]

Strictly, อ is not silent as the initial consonant. It actually represents a glottal stop.

This is not actually the case.

You can see this with the name of the Bangkok skytrain station On Nut, which is pronounced with the first syllable like the beginning of the english word "ornithology" - this is NOT a glottal stop, but the word is nonetheless spelt ออน นูช.

As mentioned above, อ is a silent but necessary consonant, because it is a rule of Thai grammar that all syllables, even if they are pronounced starting with a vowel sound (glottal stop or not), must be written beginning with a consonant.

In the OP's original example the vowel is an understood or implied vowel, that is therefore not written (as is common in many Thai words), but because it is the first sound when spoken, the อ is necessary to indicate "this word is spoken starting with the unwritten but implied vowel".

Edit: to correct my indication of how to pronounce On Nut!

Not correct. The first "อ" is the consonant called ออ อ่าง and it as pronounced as a glottal stop. The degree to which a given speaker may articulate it in a given word will vary. So, you may not always hear it, but that's what it is.

There is also another leading consonant called ออ นำ that is truly silent, only having the effect of changing the class of the consonant that follows it from low class to high class. There are only four words that have the ออ นำ: อย่า อยาก อย่าง and one other which I forget at the moment.

OK - if you're saying that all Thai words beginning with a vowel sound should be pronounced as glottal stops by definition but they may not be in actual speech, then of course you're right.

I seem to hear a lot of words that, though beginning with vowels, are not pronounced as glottal stops. For example, I find it very hard indeed to hear a glottal stop in อรอย "aroi = delicious", when Thai people say it, which I must hear about ten times a day!

Edited September 13, 2013 by partington

[AyG]

Incidentally does /o/ represent โอะ ?

The answer to his question is 'yes' .

No. The answer is "no".

โอะ is represented /oʔ/

[Richard W]

This reads like an explanation of the ins and outs of cricket!

The key point is that the vowel of อบ is omitted, but the omitted vowel is /o/; it is neither the vowel normally represented by อ /ɔː/ nor its short form /ɔ/ (the vowel of เกาะ). The vowel /o/ never has a written representation in closed syllables.

The question of whether /o/ represents โอะ very much depends on how one looks at things:

• Partly because nannying computers have trouble representing combining marks on their own, and partly because vowel symbols may precede or follow consonants and sometimes the only difference between two vowel marks is whether they precede or follow the consonant, it is customary to show the vowel marks by placing them on a consonant.
• In some scripts one uses the consonant letter for /k/; in Thai, one uses the consonant letter for the glottal stop.
• Short stressed vowels are always followed by consonants in Thai (and at the ends of words in English, or at least my variety of British English); in some sense glottal stop is the default consonant, perhaps because it can be difficult to hear. I have come to think of ะ as representing that final glottal stop.
• Some say that because glottal stops are automatic in the absence of any other consonant, they do not need to be written in phonetic transcriptions. It does cause less trouble in simple systems to omit their written representation, partly because there is the question of when and in what sense short unstressed vowels not followed by any other consonant are followed by glottal stops. Omitting the written representation of glottal stops can require syllable boundaries to be marked - even the RTGS does this for non-initial syllables beginning with glottal stops.

• When writing short vowels in Thai, one writes them in a form that would be preceded and followed by a glottal stop. For example, the short vowel /e/ is written เอะ and not เอ็.

• Initial glottal stop is heard most clearly after a syllable ending in a vowel or resonant.
• 
  

Thus:

• The vowel sound denoted /o/ in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA) is denoted โอะ when writing of Thai vowels
• The sound of a word โอะ is written, ignoring tone, /ʔoʔ/ in full phonemic IPA.
• If one adopts the convention of omitting /ʔ/, the word is written /o/.

Having set out the picture, we can now have a proper religious war over notations if so inclined and the moderators allow.

[CaptHaddock]

Strictly, อ is not silent as the initial consonant. It actually represents a glottal stop.

This is not actually the case.

You can see this with the name of the Bangkok skytrain station On Nut, which is pronounced with the first syllable like the beginning of the english word "ornithology" - this is NOT a glottal stop, but the word is nonetheless spelt ออน นูช.

As mentioned above, อ is a silent but necessary consonant, because it is a rule of Thai grammar that all syllables, even if they are pronounced starting with a vowel sound (glottal stop or not), must be written beginning with a consonant.

In the OP's original example the vowel is an understood or implied vowel, that is therefore not written (as is common in many Thai words), but because it is the first sound when spoken, the อ is necessary to indicate "this word is spoken starting with the unwritten but implied vowel".

Edit: to correct my indication of how to pronounce On Nut!

Not correct. The first "อ" is the consonant called ออ อ่าง and it as pronounced as a glottal stop. The degree to which a given speaker may articulate it in a given word will vary. So, you may not always hear it, but that's what it is.

There is also another leading consonant called ออ นำ that is truly silent, only having the effect of changing the class of the consonant that follows it from low class to high class. There are only four words that have the ออ นำ: อย่า อยาก อย่าง and one other which I forget at the moment.

OK - if you're saying that all Thai words beginning with a vowel sound should be pronounced as glottal stops by definition but they may not be in actual speech, then of course you're right.

I seem to hear a lot of words that, though beginning with vowels, are not pronounced as glottal stops. For example, I find it very hard indeed to hear a glottal stop in อรอย "aroi = delicious", when Thai people say it, which I must hear about ten times a day!

Thais pronounce ออ อ่าง more lightly than, say, a Scotsman makes a glottal stop, but it's there alright. With practice you can pronounce it like a Thai also.