Unexplained Breaker tripping

[Forkinhades]

Well that certainly is a busy junction box. Which is indeed very poor, and from where I come from would be illegal, as all terminations should be accessible, but lets not go there.

OK back on topic.

You need a waterproof box, which you can buy in any good shop. Conduits need to have adaptors on to keep IP rating to a good quality. I would then suggest using wago's for your terminations. You can search this forum.

2 hours 1 man.

[bankruatsteve]

You said you terminated "L,N & G" wires on the tripping breaker. You should leave ground wires connected.

[Forkinhades]

If you have continuous conduit, may I suggest you get that junction box totally rewired, so you do not have any connections inside it! Then you will never have to get the said box again.

[Crossy]

If you have continuous conduit, may I suggest you get that junction box totally rewired, so you do not have any connections inside it! Then you will never have to get the said box again.

Good luck with that one

Even our new build had the wiring run piecemeal, the concept of a single length from breaker to outlet or appliance was just alien. Why struggle with a long length when you can join several easy-to-pull short bits? (I wondered why he ran out of yellow Wagos so quickly).

I caved and only made sparky replace the runs to the water heaters.

[Forkinhades]

^ yeah typical thai wiring. Which is why it becomes so easy (for them) to borrow neutrals, and make things very dangerous for the DIYer

You could always do it yourself, as you already have 'draw' wires to attach to. Would need 2 people though.

Edited September 23, 2013 by Forkinhades

[gdhm]

Hi Steve ,

Sorry I did not make myself very clear.

As everybody can see the junction box is tight with wires and messy. there are 4-6 green & white lighting wires twisted together.

I identified the L, N & G IN to junction box form CU that connected ONLY to the porch and front wall outlets

a) the live wire IN which was twist connected to the porch outlet Live wire and the front wall outlets Live wire were at front of conjunction box and easy get to and untwist - which I did. I used a block terminal to connect live IN to ONLY the porch outlet's Live wire.

The remaining Live wire from Front wall I terminated (see photo showing 3 terminal block to right of junction box)

the Ground IN from CU was twist connected to the Porch outlet's Ground wire and to the Front wall Outlet's Ground wire. These were near the back of the junction box and hard to get at.

Rather than risk damaging wiring by untwisting and re-twisting I decided to cut the ground wire leading to the front wall outlet and terminated that wire with a terminal block. The IN Ground wire is now connected to the Porch outlet Ground wire and the cut off terminated front wall Ground wire.

c) I did the same exercise (as with for the Neutral wire leading to the front wall. So similar to I have a Neutral IN from CU that has 2 Neutral wires connected to it. One is the Porch outlet's Neutral wire and the other (front wall's outlet) Neutral is cut off and terminated

I am so sorry I cannot think of a way to explain more simply Steve

Essentially: Live IN is ONLY connected by terminal block to Porch LIVE

Ground IN connects to Porch Ground and the short now cut off block terminated Ground that fed the front wall Ground

Neutral IN connects to Porch Neutral and the short now cut off block terminated Neutral Ground that fed the front wall Neutral

Rather than pull out the unused front wall L,N & Wires from the Junction box I block terminated them (easy for reconnecting when/if I find the fault in the wiring between them and the front wall outlet. I suspect that fault may be close to the Front wall outlet -if I am lucky- maybe being a cable extension when the outlet near completion of build needed a small relocation of 3 metres).

I feel the method I have used is safe, quicker and avoided me disturbing all the other wiring. (hopefully you and other agree). I have multimeter tested the Porch outlets socket and I get normal expected readings.

Kind Regards

Edited September 23, 2013 by gdhm

[gdhm]

If you have continuous conduit, may I suggest you get that junction box totally rewired, so you do not have any connections inside it! Then you will never have to get the said box again.

Whilst I do my best to understand and keep an eye on suspected cowboys who disguise themselves as expert local electricians, the reality is I have self taught myself some things, got much info from this wonderful Forum from you Good people, the additional reality is I am a 61 year old 165 kilos unfit retired office Admin. staff). I do my best to do minor things safely myself (and I can (MINOR) but beyond that I am happy AND WANT TO turn it over the those who I expect to understand and do a good long lasting/permanent safe job without me having to be the foreman that saves them from doing things wrong.

Example with our last electrical job (ONLY 3 weeks ago). What more can I do when when I hire a local building firm's (sometimes) electrician to fit a new half landing light that can be reached by me to change bulbs (replacing a ring tube unit) and he reuses the same holes(I assume) to fit the new light upper fitting to the ceiling. 1 day later one for the 3 screws is pulling away, day 2 it has pulled a little more (stopped after that ½cm gap on that side now was 1cm but I checked it with a pole and it pushed up slightly (AND IT STAYED ). 2 weeks ago we asked him TO come back with his ladder and secure. A two minute task once he arrives and we have heard nothing . So many want quick, easy money and intend to never come back when they mess things up.

To help him (and have a stock) I even bought plaster board plastic raw-plugs (which expand above the ceiling plasterboard as screw is screwed in which he should have used anyway). The REALLY annoying thing is that had I had ladder long enough and strong enough to support me I could EASILY have changed the fitting myself and safely (I mean how hard is it even for a clerk). Had I done it I can assure you the screws would have held and been correctly secured. Suitable plasterboard raw-plugs cost 1 or 2 Baht. If I a retired clerk I know about them, how come an Urb. builder's often used electrician doesn't (or is too cheapskate to use them). HE is no electrician as far as I am concerned. If the other 2 screws should suddenly give whilst we wait for him or faind another with a long stepladder we will have a light fitting hanging by its 2 wires. No proper electrician would risk that on safety grounds alone and a proper electrician would have more pride in doing a decent job). The so called "electrician" must have felt that 3rd screw was not gripping properly when he screwed it into the ceiling and he betrayed our trust by leaving insecure after we paid him well for 30 mins work).

Its SOooooo frustrating!!!!

Back on subject (rant over )

I am not sure what you mean by continuous conduit but if you mean one conduit daisy chaining between light outlets I very much doubt it (I would not trust that I could feed and pull wiring through the builders electrician's conduit either. I feel sure the electrician would connect offshoots whenever he felt easier ans a shorter route.

I do not believe that is practical Forkinhades to be honest. Just looking at the Junction box photo (one thin conduit that must lead to about 5 light outlets on house/in garden at gate)actually enters the junction box . The thicker one next to it has a 1cm gap & is too larger to enter the junction box. That one feeds just ONE front wall power outlet & must have a minimum of 3 bends (probably 90 degree) between it and the front wall outlet (and I know the conduit that directly enter the front walls water-proof outlet box is not secured (coz when I gripped it, it came up and down easily (clearly it is NOT connected to the horizontal conduit which can only be 20 cms approx under the soil - assuming of course there is conduit at that point )

The wires from that junction box feed underground wiring to lights many metres away, and have 4 conduits leaving it. the Porch outlets conduit and the water falls outlet are two of them, a 3rd feed the porch central light and a maybe 2 other outside of porch lights. All the other 5 outside lights must connect to the remaining one conduit. I honestly think best left alone. If a junction box is not used where do all the wires meet. That junction box (just inside the Porch ceiling) has 2 x 4 switches (total 8) just inside the main lounge entrance 1.5 meters away (Ideally I feel it would have been best directly above the lounge switches in the lounge front corner rather than only 30 cms away above the porch.

I could try to track down the original electrician. Problem is will he remember, will he suspect we found out his method were not ideal and be keen to avoid us (in case we now know that) and would he be honest about what he did (if he cut corners) I doubt it on all.

You also said in a second post.

"Well that certainly is a busy junction box. Which is indeed very poor, and from where I come from would be illegal, as all terminations should be accessible, but lets not go there..).

and where I came from too

...You need a waterproof box, which you can buy in any good shop....

Yes GOOD POINT and desirable. Had the water leaked 1 metre to left it would have gone in box for sure. Nothing to stop a future leak doing so. Will need to see if I can find a trustworthy electrician to do it properly. A water proof junction box is no good if the electrician does not use & connect it properly. Not be3inf an electrician I could temporarily silicone a piece of sloping plastic above the junction box so that any water that may (hopefully not) leak above it would deflect over it and down below it (bodge I know but better than nothing short term and should work).

...Conduits need to have adaptors on to keep IP rating to a good quality....

Sorry most of this is beyond me. Just looked it up. If I had not said I wanted the wiring in conduit it would have been run down the inside of walls (clipped to walls) seen in so many Thai Urb. new builds or just buried in the wall itself.

In UK my house had metal conduit which offered a little protection against nails, screws and drills in wall (and seemed to be used as the ground in some of the wiring (not a good idea as some rusted at the joints and compromised the Ground. (noticed when sweaty fingers on the wall felt slightly tingly).

I accepted plastic yellow pipes (although I note some outlets have dark grey entering them (bet cheaper) so at least there is a chance wires can be pulled though/new one fed, neater etc.

Am I to believe many house/building in Thailand comply with "Conduits need to have adaptors on to keep IP rating to a good quality". If they do I am astonished as Thailand does not even know what/use a bathroom pull cord ceiling switch for the bathroom is (which I could not believe).

..I would then suggest using Wago's for your terminations. You can search this forum..

Never heard of them until today. After looking them up on the Web they do seem a very good, simple idea.

Are they recommended over screw nuts/ other connectors (if any)?

Are they strong and able to cope with 16A?

Finally are they sold in Thailand (and if so outside Bangkok)?

Regards & Thanks Forkinhades for you interest and advice

Edited September 23, 2013 by gdhm

[Forkinhades]

conduit adaptor http://www.electrical2go.co.uk/pvc-white-round-conduit-20mm-male-adaptor.html?gclid=CLv066LM5bkCFRF24godl3gAlA take a picture on your phone, and take it to the electrical shop, they will give the best alternative. They just glue on.

wagos can cope with 16A and are available, and are push fit, and available in Thailand

Edited September 25, 2013 by Forkinhades

[Crossy]

conduit adaptor http://www.electrical2go.co.uk/pvc-white-round-conduit-20mm-male-adaptor.html?gclid=CLv066LM5bkCFRF24godl3gAlA take a picture on your phone, and take it to the electrical shop, they will give the best alternative. They just glue on.

wagos can cope with 16A and are available, and are push fit, and available in Thailand

US Power in Bangkok are the local Wago distributor.

[gdhm]

conduit adaptor http://www.electrical2go.co.uk/pvc-white-round-conduit-20mm-male-adaptor.html?gclid=CLv066LM5bkCFRF24godl3gAlA take a picture on your phone, and take it to the electrical shop, they will give the best alternative. They just glue on.

wagos can cope with 16A and are available, and are push fit, and available in Thailand

Thanks for explaining. I now get it (sorry my ignorance ). I Googled something like conduit adaptor good quaility IP rating and got a very impressive (expensive looking), black PVC covered flexible metal conduit with very classy high quality metal adaptors and connectors and the conduit seemed to be coated with a pvc coloured inner lining. (Cannot find site today). But clealry not knowing what I was seeking I came across a very high quailty conduit and fittings and thought "no way came I change mine for that (even if I could find it)"

Now I understand I think . I assume the non screw side of adaptor is "plastic conduit glued" to enbd of pipe, the screwed end then poke through junction box and is secured by screwing the palstic nut on to it. Seems so simple and effective.

Thanks for explaining and the link

I looked for Wago's in a huge quite new Home Hub depot in Khon Kaen but they certainly did not sell them.

These huge outlets like Home Hub, Home Pro and Global seem VERY variable in what, the range, quality and selections they sell in Thailand.

For example yesterday I wanted a good quality thick cabled extension lead and socket, suitable to outside and a little knocking about. I found several with suitable thick cable (could deal with 2000W) but ALL were only Live and Neutral (even though all had a L,N G socket. I know Thailand seems to think Ground means soil but I cannot believe that famous Building Suppliers do not even sell 3 core wire of any thickness or amp-age. If I had my way I'd NEVER use 2 core extension leads and its very annoying when I have all my power sockets grounded and occasionally (even in Thailand) so do appliances (especially garden appliances. I also find the quality of the adaptors for plugging into power outlets to be usually very low quality with the pins grips in the sockets looking like tin or very thin brass which after a couple of uses (especially with appliances with thicker pins will not hold 2 pin plugs without them easily falling out).

I bought a couple of all toilet spray head, hose and wall holder sets (one for replace for a broken spray head and a spare) . I chose costlier ones (sold in all 3 mentioned outlets) than any before as they looked "quality". The wrapping boasted high quality and OK up to quite high water pressure. Both within 10 days of use formed expanding water filled balloons along their 1 metre hose and one (first installed which we mistakenly put down to a single defective tube) actually burst and the bathroom was flooded - luckily the drain hole almost kept up with the water inflow and we found it in time.

These supposed wonderful highly quality Thai made hoses had a reinforced outer white criss crossed nylon meshed PVC casing and an inner tube. The fault seems (to me) to be that the end terminal allowed water to get between the inner and out lining and the reinforced outer case was a total joke as our water pump is on the lower end on normal pressure and the tubes could not deal with what the cheapest Tesco Lotus one piece thick white PVC less soft tubes cope with for years.

I feel sorry for anybody who buys those units (as I said sold in all 3 stores for a couple of years now at least) unless they have no water pump and are on very low mains supply pressure because i do not believe "lightening strikes twice" and those tubes are not fit for the purpose they sold for. Three is NO excuse as few countries use water toilet sprays more than Thailand and Thai manufactures should be experts and CERTAINLY capable of testing their hoses to reasonable water pressure levels (plus a small margin for spikes)

Regards

[gdhm]

conduit adaptor http://www.electrical2go.co.uk/pvc-white-round-conduit-20mm-male-adaptor.html?gclid=CLv066LM5bkCFRF24godl3gAlA take a picture on your phone, and take it to the electrical shop, they will give the best alternative. They just glue on.

wagos can cope with 16A and are available, and are push fit, and available in Thailand

US Power in Bangkok are the local Wago distributor.

Thanks Crossy, will see if they supply any outlets/shops in Stone Age Park (definition: anywhere outside Bangkok, (maybe Pattaya & Phuket). Often it feels to me that anything outside Bangkok (and certainly Isaan) are assumed to be living prehistoric times with no education or brains to match and that nobody would ever need anything up to date or based upon modern standards of the last 30 years) EXCEPT High Tech Mobiles , iPads etc.OF COURSE, everybody seems to need and have one of those up here)

I have so far only found Samsung to have a full impressive dedicated Service Centre in Khon Kaen for its ranges of appliances. Everybody else (as far as I have found so far - I'm talking World famous brands) have either no local service centres or their Service centres that are nothing more than forwarding Depots for several Brands to Bangkok, or are backstreet repair shops (as with one of only two Hitachi washing machines service centres we recently contacted, no spares on site at all, and was a service centre for several big brand names (I cannot believe the Brands check out their authorized Service Centres because no way would they use one that look like a old parts seller for old washing machines are filthy and look totally run down.

Anyway that is another off topic subject

[Crossy]

Contact Khun Wasan

US POWER DISTRIBUTION CO., LTD.
213/6-8 4th Floor K.S. Building
Ratchada-phisek Road, Dindaeng
Bangkok 10400 THAILAND.
Tel : 662 2763040-44
Fax : 662 2763049
Email : uspower [at] truemail.co.th

Quoted prices:-

773-102 - 6 Baht each
773-104 - 8 Baht each
773-106 - 12 Baht each

All plus VAT @ 7%

It turns out that my employer have used US Power before and we get a fairly hefty discount so I ordered via them.

What sort of quantities are you looking for, could spare a few at the discounted price.

OR

For a local distributor contact Wago Thailand themselves:

From their 2012 Xmas card:-

WAGO Electronic Pte Ltd.
Anucha Majumpa
Manager
Phone: +66 2 693 5611
Fax: +66 2 693 5612
Mobile: +66 81363 5557
Mail : anucha [at] wago.com
WAGO Representative Office Thailand
4th Floor, K.S.Building,
213/6-8 Ratchada-Phisek Road, Dindaeng
Bangkok 10400 Thailand

http://www.wago.com

[gdhm]

Wonderful info Crossy and thanks for your kind offer. Not to worry though, as I'd be only seeking 20 or so, mostly for possible future use when I or workers come across poor wire connections if any work is being done in future.

I'll track down a few myself using the great info you have published here Crossy (its always its useful to find local(ish) suppliers if they exist that I can then go back to).

Just contacted a Manufacturer Dynasty,Bangkok yesterday seeking some floor tiles we used extensively on upper patio, drive and walkways around our house at time of build 5 years ago. I bought a few extra boxes at time of original purchase but they have all but been used littrle by little. 2 days ago our original (big) supplier here in Khon Kaen and another large outlet told us our tiles are obsolete as not popular and are unobtainable. They suggested we buy a tile as close as we could get (they had identical stone pattern but colours were very different. I cursed myself for not building up a bigger stock of spares when available.

Anyway, being trustful of everything I am told by Thai suppliers (especially those who do not actually have required items in stock) I decided to do a search on the Web first (just in case). On the Dynasty site I found they were still listing the desired tile. I know many Thai sites are not well maintained so I asked my wife to give them a ring yesterday afternoon. Turned out the tiles are now OBSOLETE BUT they still have a reasonable stock left (Bangkok). They said they could deliver if I wanted 50 boxes (11 tiles per pk 30cmx30cm). Unfortunately I only wanted 20. Whilst I was trying to decide what to do, the Service Care person told my wife he'd check his database and see if they had delivered any stock to somewhere in Khon Kaen or Khon Kaen province and ring back . True to his word 10 minutes later he phoned to advise 100 packs had very recently been delivered to a Kalasin outlet (about 75 kms away). I told my wife it was worth driving there. We were really lucky however, because the Kalasin outlet not only had 20 boxes but the owner was to visit their Khon Kaen sister branch TODAY and he offered to bring them with him. He told us the shade No. was 10 (ours was 7) and if too different in colour we could elect not to buy and he's take them back (Mai Pen Rai) . What a decent helpful guy (above and beyond reasonable expectations). I said to my wife, either way, the tiles would be closer in looks than tiles with a totally different code and colours. (I hoped Dynasty used their shade No.s as meaning production lots rather than definite colour differences.)

Anyway, we went this morning and our tile side by side a new one looked extremely close in shade. No doubt "in situ" we will see a slight difference but I think it will VERY slight..

Only shame was that the boxes were saturated with heavy rain (last night and early morning) which made lifting and stacking very difficult as mushy and falling apart. I thought stacked horizontally in packs of 5 would be fine (weight wise) and they seemed OK, BUT I decided as a precaution afterwards to check the Web (not easy to find advice actually) but it was suggested that if more more than 2 packs stacked horizontally the packs should be stacked vertically. So I unstacked and re-stacked again (not at all easy easy as now wet boxes were really falling apart). Now, I have 14 stacked vertically with 2 x 1 pk & 2 x 2 pks stacked horizontally along the top to protect the top edges and stabilize the vertically stacked tiles below. Seems OK but time will tell. To be honest I suspect stacked horizontally in 5 pack would have been OK (seen more than that at Tile outlets) but why bother seek expert advice and then ignore when easy to follow. (hopefully, the tiles should be better protected when what's left of their boxing dries out).

Waffling over Sorry

Regards Dave

[gdhm]

Crossy,

Just looked up on Web and I see the Wago 773 series are push wire connectors (whereas the one shown earlier in post was a 222 series lever Wago). No problem and no doubt cheaper

May I ask 2 quick questions?

1) am I correct in assuming one wire will be that from CU and others to whatever that wires feeds and that as they all interconnect it is unimportant which hole the wire from CU goes into (say in 4 or 6 wire Wago) or is there a convention electricians usually follow to help identify wire from CU?

2) If one needs to remove the wires from the Wago at a later date do they need to be cut off or can they be pulled out of the Wago (I assume that Wago is no longer usable in either case. I ask because IF connecting wires are short and barely reach each other in the first place then it is very desirable that they can be pulled from an old Wago rather than needing to be cut (thus shortening wires even further)?

Many thanks

Dave

[Crossy]

1) Yes, all the holes are linked, so it doesn't matter which goes where, up to you if you mark the incoming wire.

2) Yes, you can get wires out. Wago recommend pulling the wire whilst twisting, it's not easy but they do come out, and you can re-use the Wago (try doing it with 6 wires in a wire-nut).

But (voice of experience here), the wire will be scored and if you re-insert it you will NOT be able to get it out again, re-strip the end before re-inserting (assuming there is enough slack of course).

[gdhm]

1) Yes, all the holes are linked, so it doesn't matter which goes where, up to you if you mark the incoming wire.

2) Yes, you can get wires out. Wago recommend pulling the wire whilst twisting, it's not easy but they do come out, and you can re-use the Wago (try doing it with 6 wires in a wire-nut).

But (voice of experience here), the wire will be scored and if you re-insert it you will NOT be able to get it out again, re-strip the end before re-inserting (assuming there is enough slack of course).

Crossy you are so kind in all the advice and help you have given me over the years and I cannot express how much it has been appreciated.

I understand the scouring (at least I could get one removal and 2nd insertion before cutting on the books (and lets face it how often would one expect to remove even once)

I am pleasantly surprised I can reuse the Wago (but to be honest as so cheap I'd problem elect to play safe for maximum grip and use a new one (if removing all or many of the wires (in a 4 or 6 wire Wago)

Doing a little lateral thinking Crossy, should I have used the twisting & pull technique when I removed wires from the back of my power socket outlet. I noticed it has 2 wire insertion holes per L, N & G. No doubt so use of the originally used hole can be avoided on second wire insertion. I admit I did re-use the original holes that I pulled the wires out of, but I tested that the grip of each was solid afterwards, just in case compromised.

Regards, Dave