Land Papers

[RAZZELL]

How would you go about, or is it possible to upgrade 'Por Bor Tor 5'

landpapers, to Chanote or NS3?

Many thanks

[Dragonman]

How would you go about, or is it possible to upgrade 'Por Bor Tor 5'

landpapers, to Chanote or NS3?

Many thanks

It is possible, but is at the whim of the local Land Office. It has been considerably tightened up due to fraud allegations during the late 1990's. If you show there is a farang involved you will have greater problems, particularly if the current owner has "purchased"and is not the original "owner".

Get the owner to ask if applications may be made in your area, or if you are in with one of the local "head men" get them to ask.

[RAZZELL]

How would you go about, or is it possible to upgrade 'Por Bor Tor 5'

landpapers, to Chanote or NS3?

Many thanks

It is possible, but is at the whim of the local Land Office. It has been considerably tightened up due to fraud allegations during the late 1990's. If you show there is a farang involved you will have greater problems, particularly if the current owner has "purchased"and is not the original "owner".

Get the owner to ask if applications may be made in your area, or if you are in with one of the local "head men" get them to ask.

Is it just a question of "greasing the right palms"???

[Dragonman]

How would you go about, or is it possible to upgrade 'Por Bor Tor 5'

landpapers, to Chanote or NS3?

Many thanks

It is possible, but is at the whim of the local Land Office. It has been considerably tightened up due to fraud allegations during the late 1990's. If you show there is a farang involved you will have greater problems, particularly if the current owner has "purchased"and is not the original "owner".

Get the owner to ask if applications may be made in your area, or if you are in with one of the local "head men" get them to ask.

Is it just a question of "greasing the right palms"???

Not quite as easy as this nowadays. You need an official who is not frightened of the consequences, and the grease needs to be quite large. That's why the local head man approaching is better than the landowner. Due to the number of Departments having to approve the upgrade it is even then not guaranteed, and will take some time.

[Nadia 2]

How would you go about, or is it possible to upgrade 'Por Bor Tor 5'

landpapers, to Chanote or NS3?

Many thanks

Tor Bor 5 is just a claim to possessory rights which has been filed with the districts office and upon which a small fee has been paid. It is not possible to register a sale or lease over these land rights. It is only possession you get and some physical presence, like visiting the land frequently, will be required in order to show some kind of use to which the land has been put 'by the foreigner's company'. In addition it is not possible to apply for or obtain approval to build on such land.

Some suggest that it is allowed to build a wooden house on it... This is not correct, you could build a simple wooden structure upon the land to show some physical presence (that is all), but you are not allowed to build a wooden house on TBH land. Note that the one who actually occupies the land has a better right than the person who has just a notification form. It is very risky and in my opinion it is very doubtful how and if a foreigner's landholding company (illegal in the first place) can possess title-less land…

It is in certain circumstances possible - based on the length of the claim and the use of the land to upgrade title-less land to properly titled land. However not everywhere and not on the Samui island; The Bangkok Post 12 September 2005: '...land authorities will not issue title deeds to holders of title-less land on the Samui island. Only holders of Sor Khor 1 and Nor Sor 3 land ownership documents would have their papers upgraded to title deed....'

Maybe you can get it upgraded by paying large bribes, but then again these title deeds can easily be revoked and returned to the state (section 61 Land Code). This is what happened with 10,000 Rai of land in Phuket.

Then section 1374 CCC; 'Where a possessor is disturbed in his possession by unlawful interference, he is entitled to have the disturbance removed. If further disturbance is to be apprehended the possessor may apply for an injunction. An action for removal of disturbance must be entered within one year from the time of disturbance'.

Do you see yourself going to court because a next door farmer claims he has better rights? He could just simply rely on the fact that it is illegal for a foreigner to own or have an interest in land.... (yes, it is under present Thai law illegal to own or (if possible) possess land via a Thai landholding company). No way you ever get him removed from the land if he claims rights or win in court.

In Samui (2005) a number of foreigners 'bought' title-less land (Tor Bor 5). A nice Samui scam where foreigners paid millions!! for title-less land with a promise from the land office (of course by again paying large amounts) it would be upgraded to properly titled land... The millions of baht paid - the land was never upgraded and never will.

The current 'scam' in Samui is that foreigners are buying sea view mountain land, but will never be able to re-sell or to build on it because the government recently issued strict building zones in the new development plans for Samui...

Forget about getting involved in possession or ownership via a limited company...

[RAZZELL]

How would you go about, or is it possible to upgrade 'Por Bor Tor 5'

landpapers, to Chanote or NS3?

Many thanks

Tor Bor 5 is just a claim to possessory rights which has been filed with the districts office and upon which a small fee has been paid. It is not possible to register a sale or lease over these land rights. It is only possession you get and some physical presence, like visiting the land frequently, will be required in order to show some kind of use to which the land has been put 'by the foreigner's company'. In addition it is not possible to apply for or obtain approval to build on such land.

Some suggest that it is allowed to build a wooden house on it... This is not correct, you could build a simple wooden structure upon the land to show some physical presence (that is all), but you are not allowed to build a wooden house on TBH land. Note that the one who actually occupies the land has a better right than the person who has just a notification form. It is very risky and in my opinion it is very doubtful how and if a foreigner's landholding company (illegal in the first place) can possess title-less land…

It is in certain circumstances possible - based on the length of the claim and the use of the land to upgrade title-less land to properly titled land. However not everywhere and not on the Samui island; The Bangkok Post 12 September 2005: '...land authorities will not issue title deeds to holders of title-less land on the Samui island. Only holders of Sor Khor 1 and Nor Sor 3 land ownership documents would have their papers upgraded to title deed....'

Maybe you can get it upgraded by paying large bribes, but then again these title deeds can easily be revoked and returned to the state (section 61 Land Code). This is what happened with 10,000 Rai of land in Phuket.

Then section 1374 CCC; 'Where a possessor is disturbed in his possession by unlawful interference, he is entitled to have the disturbance removed. If further disturbance is to be apprehended the possessor may apply for an injunction. An action for removal of disturbance must be entered within one year from the time of disturbance'.

Do you see yourself going to court because a next door farmer claims he has better rights? He could just simply rely on the fact that it is illegal for a foreigner to own or have an interest in land.... (yes, it is under present Thai law illegal to own or (if possible) possess land via a Thai landholding company). No way you ever get him removed from the land if he claims rights or win in court.

In Samui (2005) a number of foreigners 'bought' title-less land (Tor Bor 5). A nice Samui scam where foreigners paid millions!! for title-less land with a promise from the land office (of course by again paying large amounts) it would be upgraded to properly titled land... The millions of baht paid - the land was never upgraded and never will.

The current 'scam' in Samui is that foreigners are buying sea view mountain land, but will never be able to re-sell or to build on it because the government recently issued strict building zones in the new development plans for Samui...

Forget about getting involved in possession or ownership via a limited company...

Thanks Nadia...very informative post...

By the way..This land is in Koh Chang...

[Dragonman]

If you want an insider's guide to Koh Chang, look at the Real Estate Section on this website:-

www.iamkohchang.com

The guy seems to have a pretty good insight into local "politics"

[RAZZELL]

If you want an insider's guide to Koh Chang, look at the Real Estate Section on this website:-

www.iamkohchang.com

The guy seems to have a pretty good insight into local "politics"

That's exactly where I've seen the land!!!

[Nadia 2]

If you want an insider's guide to Koh Chang, look at the Real Estate Section on this website:-

www.iamkohchang.com

The guy seems to have a pretty good insight into local "politics"

I saw some copies of some post about company landownership (also parts mine) copied and pasted in his website, probably to look informed about property law - and that the readers would think - he knows what he talking about and the risks are negligible and he even knows a reliable lawyer for me in pattaya. No problem for foreigners to buy title-less land. Sure, but he is just another farang selling land!

I know quite a few Thai lawyers as friends and company ownership is not a secure option, it is clearly illegal and in their opinion not worth the risks! No way you will be able to own this way in the long term. My advice to foreigners who would like to own land is that you can lease land for 30 years and that you must own the house freehold, this is the best and only legal option.

Who can you trust? A farang and his accomplice dodgy property lawyer who totally lack ethics and both just want your money? Or the opinion of independent Thai lawyers without interest in the property market.....

www.iamkohchang.com – is just another agent

By the way I thought there was not so long ago also a problem on Koh Chang with mostly Thais who build on title-less land?

[RAZZELL]

If you want an insider's guide to Koh Chang, look at the Real Estate Section on this website:-

www.iamkohchang.com

The guy seems to have a pretty good insight into local "politics"

I saw some copies of some post about company landownership (also parts mine) copied and pasted in his website, probably to look informed about property law - and that the readers would think - he knows what he talking about and the risks are negligible and he even knows a reliable lawyer for me in pattaya. No problem for foreigners to buy title-less land. Sure, but he is just another farang selling land!

I know quite a few Thai lawyers as friends and company ownership is not a secure option, it is clearly illegal and in their opinion not worth the risks! No way you will be able to own this way in the long term. My advice to foreigners who would like to own land is that you can lease land for 30 years and that you must own the house freehold, this is the best and only legal option.

Who can you trust? A farang and his accomplice dodgy property lawyer who totally lack ethics and both just want your money? Or the opinion of independent Thai lawyers without interest in the property market.....

www.iamkohchang.com – is just another agent

By the way I thought there was not so long ago also a problem on Koh Chang with mostly Thais who build on title-less land?

I believe there is...

So Nadia...what would you advise??? Chanotte only... and pay the extra??? And what about fake landpapers??? How can you tell???

Many thanks

[Nadia 2]

I believe there is...

So Nadia...what would you advise??? Chanotte only... and pay the extra??? And what about fake landpapers??? How can you tell???

Many thanks

If you stick to properly titled land you won’t have much trouble with fake land papers. The status of the land can and must be checked with the official records in the local land office. Still, property business is a dirty and dodgy business in Thailand. Too many foreigners in Thailand have wished they'd had a second chance upon finding themselves duped, conned, misled, ill-advised and uninformed etc by the estate agents and their accomplice 'legal advisors'.

Sure when you are looking for land to lease chanote is the best certificate of ownership and accurately surveyed… Though, this is Thailand and with the right connections at the Land Office (it is a highly corrupt organization) this can be manipulated. In one obvious case I know in Samui a Chanote stated 3 Rai but the actual size after a private survey turned out to be 2 Rai. Of course the land price was expressed in Thai baht per Rai....

Still you can have a holiday home in Thailand but I would (and the Thai lawyers I know) advice leasehold with freehold ownership over the house (to be built) and not freehold through a fake company. Even a foreigner with a real company (with real capital, not having nominees etc.) should stick to leasehold if he or she wishes to own a holiday home here.

Sure the smooth talking property lawyers will advice freehold BECAUSE THERE IS NO MONEY TO MAKE WITH LEASES. Leases is only a one time payment, with a company set up and a sale and purchase there is 4 times more legal fees involved AND a steady yearly income from these companies.. It is not only the direct legal fees involved but also the additional costs (work permit etc) and the yearly accounting, reporting and auditing fees involved with companies.....

In Samui lone there were 1200 new juristic persons registered in 2005. That is a lot of legal and accounting fees....

If you need advice go to an independent law firm in BKK – foreign or Thai managed. Thai Thai law firms are just or even more reliable than most of the foreign legal advisors…

[RAZZELL]

Another interesting and informative reply....

Many thanks