Any Americans in Thailand giving up US citizenship ?

[NeverSure]

forget where this is clipped from:

Interesting perspective. More than 20 nations participated in the war in Iraq. The UK supplied more than 25% of the troops.

Even Thailand had troops in that war.

I didn't approve of the actions in Iraq. But trying to blame it all on the US is rather disingenuous.

Edited September 28, 2013 by NeverSure

[Sheryl]

Sounds kinda fishy to me or some kind of unsubstantiated rumor. What about the FBAR, which nails you,if you have more than 10K in assets anywhere in the world, then they hijack you, if you have more, for 50% of your assets. By the way, the banks here and everywhere else are already ratting you out to the FEDS. Can you provide a link to this new means of extortion?

Giving up your citizenship will not ease any burden acquired in the USA, they will still hold you responsible, tax or otherwise. I had considered it but the hidden truths convinced me not to......

What on earth are you talking about?

All FBAR does is require that you report assets in overseas banks/financial instititions. They do not in any way "hijack" them. I've filed this form (which in fact predates FBAR) every year for well over two decades with no problems whatsoever and no assets "hijacked", nor any other adverse effects, just the 10 minutes once a year it takes to complete the form.

Now if your assets suggest that your income tax statements might be false, there may be some problem. But if you file an honest tax return (not hard to do given that most earned income overseas is tax exempt anyhow), should not have any problem.

The form the foreign financial institutes will have to fill out will, I suspect, be equally simple and just used as a cross-check against FBAR to catch any people who fail to file FBAR as required.

[maccaroni man]

I know a Swiss that had dual citizenship and finally got fed up with the red tape and cost of keeping his US citizenship while working abroad. He finally told them to keep it.

[Jingthing]

It's one thing giving up U.S. citizenship for a first world passport.

It's another thing to give it up for something less than that ...

[caughtintheact]

A new law called the Foreign Accounts Tax Compliance Act (Fatca) will, from 1 July next year, require all financial institutions around the world to report directly to the US Internal Revenue Service (IRS) all the assets and incomes of any US citizens with $50,000 (£31,000) on their books. The US could withhold 30% of dividends and interest payments due to the banks that don't comply.

So you split your assets up among a variety of banks in Thailand and never let a balance exceed 50 k usd so the banks report nothing...it would be wise to have several accounts anyway since eventually the Thai version of FDIC only insures each bank account up to 1 million baht.....unless you are a very wealthy person I don't see the problem. As for spending 5000 usd to pay someone to file your taxes then somebody is either very lazy, dumb, or rich. As previous poster said there are all kinds of tax software programs available.

Pornchop.

This is not entirely accurate information. There is another law of the IRS called FBAR (only indirectly related to FUBAR), and its long name is the Report of Foreign Bank and Financial Accounts (FBAR) Google FBAR and look for the IRS link.

The FBAR requires all U.S.; citizens with bank accounts abroad (and who control other financial instruments) to report all holdings if at any time during a tax year the aggregate of the accounts is US$10,000. Thus splitting up the accounts is not going to help avoid taxes. This law is already in effect although in past years it has not been enforced. The FATCA that you cited is a report in addition to the FBAR report.

In other words if you hgave 10 accounts in Thailand or other countries, and each has no more than $999, you do not have to make a FBAR report. But if on even one day during the year you put an extra $10 (or get $10 interest) in any of those accounts, it will raise the total to $10,000, and you are liable for making the FBAR report.

The IRS will certainly compare the FBAR reports against the FATCA reports and if you do a FATCA report and not a FBAR you might have to pay a fine of $10,000. The foreign banks will have to report as well, as you pointed out, but their reports will also include the FBAR. The only way to beat the system is to stay out of it by keeping less than $10,000 in all accounts during a tax yea.

Based on this, the attractiveness of changing citizenship might be a bit more attractive for some.

And remember that we are talking about accounts worldwide, not just in Thailand or one other country.

[caughtintheact]

Now, a few malcontents want to shut the entire government down, because like you, they are clueless as to what is the "government". Talk about self-serving.

You are right. We should not blame "government", but should blame politicians for just about all the ills of the world.

The threat of a government shutdown, though, is not to close down the government, rather to defund Obamacare, and get the politicians to cut spending. The politicians spend too much of the taxpayers money. While we appreciate the hard working GS and FS ranks, you are still living off the taxpayer, and although you pay taxes on the money you earn,, the work you do does not create wealth.

The USA is over $17 trillion in debt and has unfunded liabilities in the neighborhood of $100 trillion. Each year we are spending about a trillion dollars more than is taken in by taxes.

So don't be offended when you work for the government and are included in the blame game for what the politicians do to make our lives miserable. I recommend that you read Henry Hazlitt's "Economics in One Lesson", which clearly explains why most everything the politicians tell us is malarkey.

[Nayet]

A new law called the Foreign Accounts Tax Compliance Act (Fatca) will, from 1 July next year, require all financial institutions around the world to report directly to the US Internal Revenue Service (IRS) all the assets and incomes of any US citizens with $50,000 (£31,000) on their books. The US could withhold 30% of dividends and interest payments due to the banks that don't comply.

So you split your assets up among a variety of banks in Thailand and never let a balance exceed 50 k usd so the banks report nothing...it would be wise to have several accounts anyway since eventually the Thai version of FDIC only insures each bank account up to 1 million baht.....unless you are a very wealthy person I don't see the problem. As for spending 5000 usd to pay someone to file your taxes then somebody is either very lazy, dumb, or rich. As previous poster said there are all kinds of tax software programs available.

Can't imagine giving up my usa citizenship and unlike someone in the article who says she doesn't know any Americans who are NOT considering it I frankly don't know any who ARE considering.

I wish the IRS good luck in enforcing the Fatca. Opening offshore accounts outside of Thailand is easy. I can think of a few tax havens that won't be eager to disclose such information. How on earth is the IRS going to find out if a financial institution in a given country is providing accurate information on whether an individual even has an account with them? A lot of countries already see the US as the world's bully, and now that the bully happens to be in financial distress, I imagine many will see it as an opportunity to say "no can do," if in less explicit terms.

[SeabagsFull]

I think in California they pay capital gains on the sale of a house, even if it's their primary residence. So my Uncle who bought his house in West Covina in 1975 cannot afford to move.

Washington state would be my choice.

I sold my home in California in 2003; California Franchise Tax Board (FTB) allowed the same profit exclusion as the IRS. I.e., the first $250K for single filers or $500K for couples is not taxed & doesn't need to be reported.

When I moved to Thailand in 2004, I simply closed my California bank accounts & sent a change of address to the FTB. I then filed a partial-year residence return for 2004. After that, I was free & clear & only filed fed returns thereafter. The only negative I faced was regarding voting. Though fed rules state that I could still vote based on my last stateside address, California registration requirements spooked me a bit; I could envision being suddenly on the hook for state taxes again, so I balked.

I don't think they can use your place of voter registration as proof of tax liability, but contact Democrats Abroad for definitive answer. (You might also find it in the FAQ on their website).

It's all about risk analysis, Sheryl (post #67). When I attempted this in 2008, I received a primary ballot that was chock-full-of measures & whatnot dealing specifically with California.

As California has a reputation of vigorously going after "deadbeats" of any kind, with a shoot-first-&-ask-questions-later aggressiveness, I decided not to take the chance of putting myself & my family in a stressful situation.

As an example of California law, I was once served in San Diego for child support from a black lady in Bakersfield. She had identified the deadbeat dad as a black man with a name similar -- but not exactly the same -- as mine; her photo showed that the dad was also black. Even though I faxed in documentation to show that I was white & had been on deployment & that my name was slightly different, it didn't matter. So I took a day off, drove up to Bakersfield (90-100 miles) in uniform to speak with the authorities. They said that as long as two of the identifying criterior are the same (i.e., in this case the "dad" had the same birthday & month (1) & our names differed only by his middle name - I have none (2)), I had to request a paternity test to prove I wasn't the father. I received a very lucky break, however, when the lady showed up at the office while I was there; she confirmed I was not the father, & they said "sorry," & that was that (no refund for mileage or anything).

I have another example too, but I think I've made my point. Had I voted in California's primary, perhaps I could have left everything blank except the President & Vice President selections & not had any problems. Then again, I may have opened Pandora's Box ...

[SeabagsFull]

Giving up U.S. citizenship is & always will be a personal choice. I am certain that anyone who does this goes through a great deal of soul-searching before actually doing it.

Once done, however, there's no going back. A decade or so ago, a U.S. retired military chap gave up his citizenship to become an Australian citizen. A couple of years later, DFAS found out & canceled his retirement payments; they also stuck him with a bill for the years of payments received since the citizenship change. He appealed all the way to the SCOTUS & lost. There is one exception to this rule: Filipino nationals are allowed to retain their Philippines citizenship while simultaneously receiving military retirement checks.

But non-citizens can join the US military. It would be strange were they unable to draw retirement after being allowed to join and serve their 20 years.

Non-citizens of any country retain earned US military retirements. However, renouncing your US citizenship does forfeit your military pension.

Sorry Bonobo (post #85), but you're wrong. There may be exceptions here & there, but in general the military views dual citizenship as "split loyalties."

Yes, it is strange & doesn't sound fair; hence the case that went all the way to the SCOTUS.

The reason Filipinos are treated differently is due to an agreement worked out between the U.S. & the Philippines back when the U.S. owned the Subic Naval Shipyard. We needed military recruits, had a long & warm history with Filipinos, & kind-of-sort-of occupied (not legally, but in many respects) Subic Bay.

But don't take my word on this. I recommend that any military retiree who's considering becoming a citizen of another country first consult with a lawyer to ascertain whether or not he'll lose his retirement & VA disability (if he's receiving it).

[Somtamnication]

Been there, done that. Happy as pig in shit.

[bonobo]

Giving up U.S. citizenship is & always will be a personal choice. I am certain that anyone who does this goes through a great deal of soul-searching before actually doing it.

Once done, however, there's no going back. A decade or so ago, a U.S. retired military chap gave up his citizenship to become an Australian citizen. A couple of years later, DFAS found out & canceled his retirement payments; they also stuck him with a bill for the years of payments received since the citizenship change. He appealed all the way to the SCOTUS & lost. There is one exception to this rule: Filipino nationals are allowed to retain their Philippines citizenship while simultaneously receiving military retirement checks.

But non-citizens can join the US military. It would be strange were they unable to draw retirement after being allowed to join and serve their 20 years.

Non-citizens of any country retain earned US military retirements. However, renouncing your US citizenship does forfeit your military pension.

Sorry Bonobo (post #85), but you're wrong. There may be exceptions here & there, but in general the military views dual citizenship as "split loyalties."

Yes, it is strange & doesn't sound fair; hence the case that went all the way to the SCOTUS.

The reason Filipinos are treated differently is due to an agreement worked out between the U.S. & the Philippines back when the U.S. owned the Subic Naval Shipyard. We needed military recruits, had a long & warm history with Filipinos, & kind-of-sort-of occupied (not legally, but in many respects) Subic Bay.

But don't take my word on this. I recommend that any military retiree who's considering becoming a citizen of another country first consult with a lawyer to ascertain whether or not he'll lose his retirement & VA disability (if he's receiving it).

I am very aware of the special relationship we have with FIlipinos. I have taken advantage of it at the VA medical clinic in Manila, the only such facility outside the US. However, not all people who serve in the military hold US or Filipino citizenship. I am not speaking of dual nationals, as to which you seem to be referring. My roommate at the Naval Academy had dual nationality, and he had to renounce his other nationality (Dutch, in his case.)

There are quote a number of people in the military who are foreign citizens, and if they stay long enough to earn a retirement, they get that retirement. I know both a UK citizen and a Norwegian who are in that category. Neither ever held a US citizenship, yet both are getting retired pay.

[caughtintheact]

Detroit to access the pension funds of city employees to pay the banks who guaranteed loans to the now bankrupt city of Detroit. True story, God help those poor people who worked all their lives and now lose their pension fund, wow how bad is that.

I have a nephew who lives in America and he is going to bail out if and when he can.

If it's a true story you should be able to help us out with a link. Detroit is bankrupt and the pension fund is short by about 5 billion dollars. Kind of hard to take money from an empty cookie jar, and one of the reasons that the city is bankrupt is because they made the pensions so high they could not generate enough revenue to pay for them. Once upon a time Detroit had a population of 1.8 million, and now it is down to less than 700,000. To keep pension promises, there has to be wealth creation, not wealth destruction. Those who have their pensions reduced believed the promises of crooked politicians. It is the politicians who made bad promises that are at fault, not the people who now have to clean up the swamp.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffreydorfman/2013/07/25/detroits-bankruptcy-should-be-a-warning-to-every-worker-expecting-a-pension-or-social-security/

[bonobo]

Bizarre that you are having a go at the BBC. There's a massive coterie of Americans that visit the BBC website daily looking for an unbiased view of, in particular, matters American. It seems the US media has drawn partisan battle lines these days. That's a democratic deficit going on right there.

I am one of those people.

[CaptHaddock]

States vary in whether or not they tax income earned out of state, but of course any expat with any sense will have seen to it they are "domiciled" in a state that does not.

Except for VA, it is not necessary to establish domicile in a non-tax state to avoid eligibility for state taxes when expatting. It depends on the tax domicile rules for each state, but if you follows the regulations for your state before leaving, you will not be liable for state taxes. It is not the case that all US citizens must establish residence in a state. VA, apparently alone among the states, does take the position that you remain a resident of VA until such time as you establish residence in another state.

[ronz28]

A new privilege of Americans is to choose and pay for health insurance at the following rates (unless you can prove up employer coverage, etc.) for your age group in addition to all the U.S., state, city, county, mass transit and other taxing authority taxes.

http://aspe.hhs.gov/health/reports/2013/MarketplacePremiums/datasheet_home.cfm

Gets expensive the older you get especially for those without medicare coverage or employee/retiree health plans. On top of the high cost of insurance, there are deductibles, copays, weasels working for the insurance companies that slow pay, and try to find every trick in the book to deny payment and then pay their CEOs (like United Health Care) $100+ million per year plus mega million retirement payoffs.

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2011/12/ceo-compensation-11_land.html

Its no wonder more Americans have moved or are considering alternatives like Costa Rica, etc.

[Cheapcharly]

Tina Turner is swiss... What about that?

[mogoso]

"H&R block charge about $250 for the most basic tax return with basic W2 form salary only." - False. I worked for H&R Block for several years. The return you describe would be free. A married couple with a couple of W2s, who own their home with a mortgage deduction and a couple of kids - it may be that high depending on other stuff.

I am not an H&R Block advocate - I highly recommend TurboTax if possible in your situation - just wanted to straighten out an error.

Cheers.

Why pay for any tax program, go to the IRS site and they'll list free tax services. I use tax act as they will let old farts file, some of the others have age limitations. They will charge you to do you State returns, but no income in State no return necessary

[SpokaneAl]

"H&R block charge about $250 for the most basic tax return with basic W2 form salary only." - False. I worked for H&R Block for several years. The return you describe would be free. A married couple with a couple of W2s, who own their home with a mortgage deduction and a couple of kids - it may be that high depending on other stuff.

I am not an H&R Block advocate - I highly recommend TurboTax if possible in your situation - just wanted to straighten out an error.

Cheers.

Why pay for any tax program, go to the IRS site and they'll list free tax services. I use tax act as they will let old farts file, some of the others have age limitations. They will charge you to do you State returns, but no income in State no return necessary

Good point - free is better than cheap. However, be aware that there are some income limitations on the free, IRS mandated tax services.

[Naam]

I wish the IRS good luck in enforcing the Fatca. Opening offshore accounts outside of Thailand is easy. I can think of a few tax havens that won't be eager to disclose such information. How on earth is the IRS going to find out if a financial institution in a given country is providing accurate information on whether an individual even has an account with them? A lot of countries already see the US as the world's bully, and now that the bully happens to be in financial distress, I imagine many will see it as an opportunity to say "no can do," if in less explicit terms.

dear Sir,

with all [un]due respect this is to certify that you possess a wealth of no idea about U.S. citizens or U.S. persons (there's a difference) opening bank accounts outside Thailand "easily".

[dmerchent]

Tina Turner is swiss... What about that?

How about that she is married to a Swiss, that may account for it. The US and Swiss recognize dual citizenship, so she most likely is a dual citizen.

Edited September 29, 2013 by dmerchent

[dmerchent]

Also FATCA is based on participating countries, not all of them participate. So as one poster mentioned... maybe the OP, can't remember..FATCA is not Worldwide.

Edited September 29, 2013 by dmerchent

[snake24]

but but but........... i thought USA was the best country in the world why would anyone give it up??

[slipperylobster]

I've travelled the world, close to 90 countries, and I haven't found a one I would give up my right to come back to the 'good ole USA' for............. Better give a lot of thought to what you are thinking. If you are in LOS (and I DO love Thailand), you are not living off of what you earned in LOS, Think about the country that put you where you are today, instead of being in the shoes of someone born in LOS. I will continue to pay my share and keep my US passport....... Thanks......

USA! USA!

As for the others who would defect.... Bye! You already paid into social security, I hope, because I am collecting soon. lol Have fun.

[slipperylobster]

but but but........... i thought USA was the best country in the world why would anyone give it up??

When you see your next movie, hear your next song think of US. LOL

We put alot of effort into it...and we appreciate your cynicism.

You might also check into the numbers a bit...you might be disappointed to find that there are fewer defectors than you think.

As far as I know, All nationalities are just flooding into America...have been for a few hundred years. Millions of people worldwide giving up their homeland for the Red White and Blue...vs a few idiots. Numbers do not lie. Do I needo to give you references....or you can just concede. Because it is going to be phenomenal.

[Soutpeel]

forget where this is clipped from:

post-188259-0-98173000-1380361724.jpg

Interesting perspective. More than 20 nations participated in the war in Iraq. The UK supplied more than 25% of the troops.

Even Thailand had troops in that war.

I didn't approve of the actions in Iraq. But trying to blame it all on the US is rather disingenuous.

this maybe so...but didnt you have an EX-president who said some like "you either with us or against us"....freedom fries. bottle of french wine down the drains etc...hardly a coalition of the willings was it, with the exception of the lap dog Blair....

[Cheapcharly]

Tina Turner is swiss... What about that?

 

How about that she is married to a Swiss, that may account for it. The US and Swiss recognize dual citizenship, so she most likely is a dual citizen. 

Most likely? Ahah ahah, you brain can not even think that some people do everything they can to quit USA for good. .. .... No she is not US citizen since 2013. Do you think she is too stupid to keep a us passport?and pay millions of tax? . All swiss guys having us passport have already relinquished their us passport to become a free person.

If you are a us person, you are owned by the USA and irs.... You are not free. If one day the usa decide to take your passport away and tax you hell, you will have to go back to the usa and say bye bye to thailand.

What about that?

[Kudel]

Tina Turner is swiss... What about that?

How about that she is married to a Swiss, that may account for it. The US and Swiss recognize dual citizenship, so she most likely is a dual citizen.

Most likely? Ahah ahah, you brain can not even think that some people do everything they can to quit USA for good. .. .... No she is not US citizen since 2013. Do you think she is too stupid to keep a us passport?and pay millions of tax? . All swiss guys having us passport have already relinquished their us passport to become a free person.

If you are a us person, you are owned by the USA and irs.... You are not free. If one day the usa decide to take your passport away and tax you hell, you will have to go back to the usa and say bye bye to thailand.

What about that?

i thought switzerland was put under pressure by the international community to give up there very discrete banking services wich they offered to customers because criminals and terrorist organisations used this to there advantage .

[Nayet]

I wish the IRS good luck in enforcing the Fatca. Opening offshore accounts outside of Thailand is easy. I can think of a few tax havens that won't be eager to disclose such information. How on earth is the IRS going to find out if a financial institution in a given country is providing accurate information on whether an individual even has an account with them? A lot of countries already see the US as the world's bully, and now that the bully happens to be in financial distress, I imagine many will see it as an opportunity to say "no can do," if in less explicit terms.

dear Sir,

with all [un]due respect this is to certify that you possess a wealth of no idea about U.S. citizens or U.S. persons (there's a difference) opening bank accounts outside Thailand "easily".

You are right, I am not sure why I rushed to conclude that it is easy for all nationalities just because it is easy for some, but if you'll indulge me, in what countries have you tried and been denied?

[Naam]

I wish the IRS good luck in enforcing the Fatca. Opening offshore accounts outside of Thailand is easy. I can think of a few tax havens that won't be eager to disclose such information. How on earth is the IRS going to find out if a financial institution in a given country is providing accurate information on whether an individual even has an account with them? A lot of countries already see the US as the world's bully, and now that the bully happens to be in financial distress, I imagine many will see it as an opportunity to say "no can do," if in less explicit terms.

dear Sir,

with all [un]due respect this is to certify that you possess a wealth of no idea about U.S. citizens or U.S. persons (there's a difference) opening bank accounts outside Thailand "easily".

You are right, I am not sure why I rushed to conclude that it is easy for all nationalities just because it is easy for some, but if you'll indulge me, in what countries have you tried and been denied?

possessing both German and Swiss citizenship i have never been denied opening a bank account. but i have a bunch of American friends who are in deep trouble not establishing accounts outside of U.S. jurisdiction but even keeping those accounts which they have maintained since many years.

for the record: even for non-U.S. citizens it has become very tedious to establish bank accounts when assets to be transferred are exceeding "peanuts amounts". the times are long gone when bankers bowed deeply seeing a few million cash dollars in a suitcase which the applicant presented. today this applicant will see a banker shaking his head and hear "sorry Sir/Madame!" and that applies even to non-cash transfers from one bank to another.

only recently a friend of mine was grilled by the compliance department of a bank because he wanted to diversify some cash to reduce risk from one Singapore bank to another. he had to comply with the silliest demands in order that his transfer of slightly less than half a million €UR was accepted.

it's all based on OECD regulations "KYC" (Know Your Client/Customer). as far as cash transactions are concerned Thailand is still a "paradise". nobody blinks or shows any reaction if you deposit or withdraw a few million Baht. how long that will last is anybody's guess.

[Forethat]

I wish the IRS good luck in enforcing the Fatca. Opening offshore accounts outside of Thailand is easy. I can think of a few tax havens that won't be eager to disclose such information. How on earth is the IRS going to find out if a financial institution in a given country is providing accurate information on whether an individual even has an account with them? A lot of countries already see the US as the world's bully, and now that the bully happens to be in financial distress, I imagine many will see it as an opportunity to say "no can do," if in less explicit terms.

dear Sir,

with all [un]due respect this is to certify that you possess a wealth of no idea about U.S. citizens or U.S. persons (there's a difference) opening bank accounts outside Thailand "easily".

You are right, I am not sure why I rushed to conclude that it is easy for all nationalities just because it is easy for some, but if you'll indulge me, in what countries have you tried and been denied?

possessing both German and Swiss citizenship i have never been denied opening a bank account. but i have a bunch of American friends who are in deep trouble not establishing accounts outside of U.S. jurisdiction but even keeping those accounts which they have maintained since many years.

Citizenship should never be a factor when opening an account. International agreements and regulations requires the bank to verify the identity of a customer. As long as the customer meets all other requirements there are no grounds to reject.

For this reason, verifying your identity with a Swiss, German or American passport is irrelevant. Similarly, unless you are able to verify residency you'd have to settle for one of the offshore banking alternatives, regardless of Swiss, Thai or Nigerian nationality.

Most banks (even Thai) monitor transfers on a wide scale, wider than most customers are aware of. This includes local, domestic and international transfers.

If you want to get sucked up in this boring world, here's a good place to start:

http://www.fatf-gafi.org/