Any Americans in Thailand giving up US citizenship ?

[stickylies]

taxes in usa?

[GreenSnapper]

Do I understand correctly, the first 96000 US$ you earn abroad/offshore is tax free?

Come on guys, you live in paradise. Keep your passport and be happy to travel freely.

[rosst]

No benefit anymore . It s not about tax, it s about freedom! I don't report tax, no fbar, no fatca, no irs, all money I make go straight to my pocket. Because I m an alien.... I can invest where I want... Buy what I want, I can buy a sail boat, go sailing, and I don't have to pay anything to USA. USA is only problems.(100%headach guaranteed) .. Low tax? My ass! Can go up to 40% tax, plus advisers fee, plus vat, at the end, you pay over 60% Tax. Then you have Obama care, one day they will ask you to pay, you expats... I know many usa citizen or guys with green card who relinquished it... Now they feel better, they can have a normal life... This is a concept that you will never understand in the USA. Concept of freedom. If USCIS decide to give me a USA passport, I will probably burn it immediately. If Thailand give me a thai passport, welcome... I will be proud to become a thai citizen. It s funny to see how a poor country like thailand is now more attractive than the #1 country(usa) where even it s own citizen are ready to relinquish their USA nationality. What a slap in the face for the department of state. I bet they will lie on the number of guys abandoning their US nationality to not to lose face or they will treat them to be traitors. ... FATCA will probably put usa on it s knee... Who want this shit?

Freedom? Sure, there are lots of things I don't like about the US government, but I have a LOT more freedom in the US than I do in LOS.

First, I have a right to be here. I don't need anyone's permission or fill out any paperwork. Just be. That makes it home.

Second, I own my home, for real. I can invest in other properties in my name only.

Third, I have a Glock 23 tucked into an inside-the-waistband holster at 4:00, almost in the small of my back.

Forth, I live outside a city on acreage, and it's legal to shoot on my property. I have my own firing range.

Fifth, medical marijuana is legal here although I've never used it. Easy if I want it.

Sixth, it's legal to home brew beer and wine here. Lots of my friends do.

I could go on and on.

But this is home and the Land of The Free and The Home of The Brave.

Which is full of such greedy people with enough influence to get corrupt politicians to pass laws that will allow the official receiver for the City of

Detroit to access the pension funds of city employees to pay the banks who guaranteed loans to the now bankrupt city of Detroit. True story, God help those poor people who worked all their lives and now lose their pension fund, wow how bad is that.

I have a nephew who lives in America and he is going to bail out if and when he can.

[zydeco]

A new law called the Foreign Accounts Tax Compliance Act (Fatca) will, from 1 July next year, require all financial institutions around the world to report directly to the US Internal Revenue Service (IRS) all the assets and incomes of any US citizens with $50,000 (£31,000) on their books. The US could withhold 30% of dividends and interest payments due to the banks that don't comply.

So you split your assets up among a variety of banks in Thailand and never let a balance exceed 50 k usd so the banks report nothing...it would be wise to have several accounts anyway since eventually the Thai version of FDIC only insures each bank account up to 1 million baht.....unless you are a very wealthy person I don't see the problem. As for spending 5000 usd to pay someone to file your taxes then somebody is either very lazy, dumb, or rich. As previous poster said there are all kinds of tax software programs available.

Can't imagine giving up my usa citizenship and unlike someone in the article who says she doesn't know any Americans who are NOT considering it I frankly don't know any who ARE considering.

I have just read the "Summary of FATCA Reporting for US Taxpayer" pdf file and it is not a balance exceeding 50K but the aggregate value of more than the reporting threshold of 50K that has to be reported. So dividing up the assets in different accounts is not going to get around the FATCA rules

True. Which means you need to put it all into a safety deposit box (except that some Thai bank employees were I seem to remember recently seen on video (belonging to the bank itself!) cleaning out safety deposit boxes. Could buy gold and wear your money--but that makes you a target too. Might bury it in the ground--but if it floods . . . Besides, the IRS could be commandeering drones to spy on delinquent expats everywhere in the world. You never know. One day, you're sitting on your veranda, sipping wine. And the next, a drone missile comes crashing into paradise.

Edited September 28, 2013 by zydeco

[Time Traveller]

Do I understand correctly, the first 96000 US$ you earn abroad/offshore is tax free?

Come on guys, you live in paradise. Keep your passport and be happy to travel freely.

Huh? How is it paradise? Every other country in the world doesn't tax their non-residents on offshore income either.

Furthermore the US make distinctions between earned income (salary) and non-earned income such as investment income. The latter does not get any tax free threshold. It's crazy that someone that has no connections to USA apart from citizenship and lived elsewhere for many years still liable for tax on income earned elsewhere. Tax should be payable only at it's source on income earned.

[Frank James]

I love living in Thailand, with my lovely Thai wife, but I am American to the core. It's not some nationalistic BS with me, I just love my country and all that it has done for me. I don't like the current tilt toward fascism that's been shaping up since the Reagan Era. Creation of "Homeland Security" was the worst thing to happen in govt. in many years.

Despite all of the Tea party right wing know nothing dickheads, there's still much to love about the USA. To give up American citizenship, especially for a thin reason like taxation, whoever does that is a moral coward, who never deserved to be a citizen in the first place.

That ragged blue passport with the eagle on it is my proudest possession, even though I don't actually "own" it. There are many fine countries in the world, and I've been fortunate to see a lot of them, but no amount of money could cause me to swap out my American citizenship.

[SeabagsFull]

Giving up U.S. citizenship is & always will be a personal choice. I am certain that anyone who does this goes through a great deal of soul-searching before actually doing it.

Once done, however, there's no going back. A decade or so ago, a U.S. retired military chap gave up his citizenship to become an Australian citizen. A couple of years later, DFAS found out & canceled his retirement payments; they also stuck him with a bill for the years of payments received since the citizenship change. He appealed all the way to the SCOTUS & lost. There is one exception to this rule: Filipino nationals are allowed to retain their Philippines citizenship while simultaneously receiving military retirement checks.

[Naam]

Looks like you can get a Paraguyan passport for $3900 if this article is to be believed. http://www.diplomaticsecondpassport.com/paraguaypassport.html

yeah right! a consulting company dealing with second passports with an e-mal address in Russia

[email protected]

[Naam]

I love living in Thailand, with my lovely Thai wife, but I am American to the core. It's not some nationalistic BS with me, I just love my country and all that it has done for me. I don't like the current tilt toward fascism that's been shaping up since the Reagan Era. Creation of "Homeland Security" was the worst thing to happen in govt. in many years.

Despite all of the Tea party right wing know nothing dickheads, there's still much to love about the USA. To give up American citizenship, especially for a thin reason like taxation, whoever does that is a moral coward, who never deserved to be a citizen in the first place.

That ragged blue passport with the eagle on it is my proudest possession, even though I don't actually "own" it. There are many fine countries in the world, and I've been fortunate to see a lot of them, but no amount of money could cause me to swap out my American citizenship.

HALLELUJAH AMEN!

[Naam]

Do I understand correctly, the first 96000 US$ you earn abroad/offshore is tax free?

Come on guys, you live in paradise. Keep your passport and be happy to travel freely.

not exactly freely if you like to buy Cuban cigars in La Habana or attend a cocktail party in Pyongyang

[khunianb]

The process is actually quite straightforward.

The US government State Department reviews your application to renounce citizenship. You must have an alternative as you cannot be stateless.

You taxes must be up to date and there is a financial limit of $2 million. Above that limit you have an exit tax.

With many foreign banks becoming reluctant to deal with US citizens and potential business partners not wanting US citizens in their companies because of the reporting requirement; it is likely that a small but possibly wealthy minority will renounce citizenship - or at least their children who probably have assets under the limit at the moment.

[bri1guy]

I have been told in the past that its not $50,ooo but $10,ooo with is a serious difference.. we need to have this amount confirmed!!!

A new law called the Foreign Accounts Tax Compliance Act (Fatca) will, from 1 July next year, require all financial institutions around the world to report directly to the US Internal Revenue Service (IRS) all the assets and incomes of any US citizens with $50,000 (£31,000) on their books. The US could withhold 30% of dividends and interest payments due to the banks that don't comply.

So you split your assets up among a variety of banks in Thailand and never let a balance exceed 50 k usd so the banks report nothing...it would be wise to have several accounts anyway since eventually the Thai version of FDIC only insures each bank account up to 1 million baht.....unless you are a very wealthy person I don't see the problem. As for spending 5000 usd to pay someone to file your taxes then somebody is either very lazy, dumb, or rich. As previous poster said there are all kinds of tax software programs available.

Can't imagine giving up my usa citizenship and unlike someone in the article who says she doesn't know any Americans who are NOT considering it I frankly don't know any who ARE considering.

[Kudel]

No benefit anymore . It s not about tax, it s about freedom! I don't report tax, no fbar, no fatca, no irs, all money I make go straight to my pocket. Because I m an alien.... I can invest where I want... Buy what I want, I can buy a sail boat, go sailing, and I don't have to pay anything to USA. USA is only problems.(100%headach guaranteed) .. Low tax? My ass! Can go up to 40% tax, plus advisers fee, plus vat, at the end, you pay over 60% Tax. Then you have Obama care, one day they will ask you to pay, you expats... I know many usa citizen or guys with green card who relinquished it... Now they feel better, they can have a normal life... This is a concept that you will never understand in the USA. Concept of freedom. If USCIS decide to give me a USA passport, I will probably burn it immediately. If Thailand give me a thai passport, welcome... I will be proud to become a thai citizen. It s funny to see how a poor country like thailand is now more attractive than the #1 country(usa) where even it s own citizen are ready to relinquish their USA nationality. What a slap in the face for the department of state. I bet they will lie on the number of guys abandoning their US nationality to not to lose face or they will treat them to be traitors. ... FATCA will probably put usa on it s knee... Who want this shit?

Freedom? Sure, there are lots of things I don't like about the US government, but I have a LOT more freedom in the US than I do in LOS.

First, I have a right to be here. I don't need anyone's permission or fill out any paperwork. Just be. That makes it home.

Second, I own my home, for real. I can invest in other properties in my name only.

Third, I have a Glock 23 tucked into an inside-the-waistband holster at 4:00, almost in the small of my back.

Forth, I live outside a city on acreage, and it's legal to shoot on my property. I have my own firing range.

Fifth, medical marijuana is legal here although I've never used it. Easy if I want it.

Sixth, it's legal to home brew beer and wine here. Lots of my friends do.

I could go on and on.

But this is home and the Land of The Free and The Home of The Brave.

Which is full of such greedy people with enough influence to get corrupt politicians to pass laws that will allow the official receiver for the City of

Detroit to access the pension funds of city employees to pay the banks who guaranteed loans to the now bankrupt city of Detroit. True story, God help those poor people who worked all their lives and now lose their pension fund, wow how bad is that.

I have a nephew who lives in America and he is going to bail out if and when he can.

i think youre obsevation about Detroit is wrong because a bank from my country over a period of several years lent about 31,5 billion euro to said city and the governor of michigan and federal goverment made it clear about 2 weeks ago they where not planning to pay it back because they wanted the use what money was left to pay the pension funds of detroit city employees.

And that foreign bank also lent money to other cities in the states who also are in financial problems.one wonders how the states still gets such a good credit rating.

[NeverSure]

We went through this before with a topic started by a another person who wanted to give up his U.S. citizenship.

In case anyone does want that he or she better do some serious research on the internet or better still contact a U.S. tax lawyer with experience in this matter.

Believe me, I'm far from an expert, but giving up your U.S. citizenship could cost you a LOT of money depending on what property(s) you own in the U.S. in taxes.

From what I read some months ago someone giving up their U.S. citizenship CAN be liable for a large amount in their last 5 years tax bill .... known to some as a "exit tax".

Before you do anything, you should get a U.S. tax lawyer to look into this.

The IRS laws on this are complicated and if you do decide to give up your U.S. citizenship, BEFORE you do it have a long discussion with a U.S. Tax lawyer.

I am NOT an expert, but what little I read before when this topic came up scared me off,

There can be a hefty financial penalty for giving up your U.S. citizenship.

It's NOT a trivial matter.

Not to mention as another poster has said .... if you do give up your U.S. citizenship without another nationality to fall back on .... you are effectively stateless when that happens.

That means without a passport and unable to travel.

I suppose it's like anything else - - depends on how you do it. Can you not divest yourself of all assets in USA, put the money in your pocket and just leave ?

of course you can transfer all assets out of U.S. jurisdiction and then say "good bye". only an idiot unwise person would do otherwise. and the same "unwise" attribute applies to somebody who renounces his citizenship without having obtained another citizenship and a relevant valid passport in his/her pocket.

Just curious. I said that taxes are low in the US. Some have disagreed. Compared to Germany, how do these effective tax rates compare, just roughly?

The newest list I can find is 2007, but they haven't changed much since then.

Would you say that the top 10% of earners in the US paying less than 21% including payroll tax is high or low?

Would you say that the top 400 earners in the US, earning an average of $344 million dollars each and paying taxes on average of 16.6% is high or low?

Would you say that a below average earning family making $42,500 per year and paying 9.1% in taxes is high or low?

Effective income tax rates LINK

"While the top marginal tax rate on ordinary income is 39.6 percent, average rates that a household in the upper income bracket pays are less. Much of the earnings of those in the top income bracket come from capital gains, interest and dividends, which are taxed at a maximum of 20 percent. Also because only income up to $106,800 is subject to payroll taxes of 15.3%, which are paid by the employer and employee, individuals in the upper income bracket pay on average an effective rate not much different than that of other income brackets. The effective tax rate paid by an individual in the upper income bracket is highly dependent on the ratio of income they earn from capital gains, interest and dividends. The table below shows the average effective income tax rates for different."

Please click the link above. I can't import the table.

Edited September 28, 2013 by NeverSure

[Just1Voice]

While it saddens me to see many of the changes that have occured in my country over the past 20 years or so, there is no way I could ever renounce my citizenship. 2nd Generation Irish-American, and 20 years as a U.S. Marine. No matter what, when I die, I will die as an American, and as a Marine, and grateful that God, or fate, gave me the chance to be those two things.

[MJP]

I've heard from American friends that the tax issue comes down to which state you live in. I think many were relocating to Colorado because of the lower taxes there. Denver seems popular. Some of the state taxes in the likes of California seemed quite potty.

So perhaps renounce your state and not your citizenship.

[Cheapcharly]

I heard that it won't be possible for a USA person to get retirement in thailand very soon.

Thai bank will shut down all accounts owned by us person in July 2014 when fatca will be fully implemented.

So you have 2 choices, go home or ditch this blue passport.

Now who is laughing at me....?

[MJP]

I heard that it won't be possible for a USA person to get retirement in thailand very soon.

Thai bank will shut down all accounts owned by us person in July 2014 when fatca will be fully implemented.

So you have 2 choices, go home or ditch this blue passport.

Now who is laughing at me....?

Do you think this is a creeping form of currency control? It does smack of that.

[dmerchent]

I would never give up my US citizenship (even though the Government and IRS pisses me of a lot of times) lol...

But even besides clearing out all of your US assets.

Having your taxes up to date, you will definitely be seriously audited!

Losing any Social Security, government or military retirement benefits, (you have given up all rights as a US citizen) no matter that you served your country or payed into the system.

I have heard that they make it very difficult for you to return to the US on your new foreign Visa, your become sort of a person non grata. Payback lets say.

So if you have any family at all, be prepared to have to meet them outside the US.

Also when looking up fee's for renewing my US passport I saw the fee for "Renunciation of U.S. Citizenship" a charge of 450.00, that's pretty funny.

[dmerchent]

I've heard from American friends that the tax issue comes down to which state you live in. I think many were relocating to Colorado because of the lower taxes there. Denver seems popular. Some of the state taxes in the likes of California seemed quite potty.

So perhaps renounce your state and not your citizenship.

Seven states in the US have no State Tax, Alaska, Florida, Nevada, South Dakota, Texas and Washington State.

But you will never get away from Federal Tax. Like Benjamin Franklin said “Nothing is certain except death and taxes.”

[MJP]

I've heard from American friends that the tax issue comes down to which state you live in. I think many were relocating to Colorado because of the lower taxes there. Denver seems popular. Some of the state taxes in the likes of California seemed quite potty.

So perhaps renounce your state and not your citizenship.

Seven states in the US have no State Tax, Alaska, Florida, Nevada, South Dakota, Texas and Washington State.

But you will never get away from Federal Tax. Like Benjamin Franklin said “Nothing is certain except death and taxes.”

Yes, it was state taxes that especially seemed to wind people up. I think in California they pay capital gains on the sale of a house, even if it's their primary residence. So my Uncle who bought his house in West Covina in 1975 cannot afford to move.

Washington state would be my choice.

[Mudcrab]

I heard that it won't be possible for a USA person to get retirement in thailand very soon.

Thai bank will shut down all accounts owned by us person in July 2014 when fatca will be fully implemented.

So you have 2 choices, go home or ditch this blue passport.

Now who is laughing at me....?

yes I think the last (Labor) Government in Australia did a similar thing. 6 weeks out of the country and no more pension. Not 100% of the detail but something like that

[CaptHaddock]

I, for one, think you're hilarious.

I heard that it won't be possible for a USA person to get retirement in thailand very soon.

Thai bank will shut down all accounts owned by us person in July 2014 when fatca will be fully implemented.

So you have 2 choices, go home or ditch this blue passport.

Now who is laughing at me....?

[Sheryl]

I heard that it won't be possible for a USA person to get retirement in thailand very soon.

Thai bank will shut down all accounts owned by us person in July 2014 when fatca will be fully implemented.

So you have 2 choices, go home or ditch this blue passport.

Now who is laughing at me....?

yes I think the last (Labor) Government in Australia did a similar thing. 6 weeks out of the country and no more pension. Not 100% of the detail but something like that

U.S. Social Security payments are not affected by living abroad. You remain fully eligible and can receive payment in-country. Ditto VA pensions, and of course private pensions (for the rare few who get them) are unaffected as well.

FATCA pertains only to (reporting requirements. See http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Corporations/Foreign-Account-Tax-Compliance-Act-%28FATCA%29

I very much doubt Thai banks will "shut down all accounts owned by a USA person". They may, however, start to file reports to the IRS on these accounts. The intent is to catch tax dodgers.

[Sheryl]

A post with derogatory language about another poster has been deleted.

I do realize that some posters have written things that are at best nonsense, but keep it civil. Either ignore or reply calmly and factually, without insults.

[umbanda]

If you are a billionaire like the Facebook and Google people living in Singapore, do not want to share your money with the IRS, and can buy any citizenship wanted, why not? (I do not know now, but In America in 1990 you were able to "buy" the US citizenship for $250,000) ...

I am married with a wonderful Thai woman, happier than ever, and have here more freedom than in America...(I have Cubans friends that I am unable to visit, and Brazilian daughters that never were able to get a visa to visit me in the US)...and....Probably you do not know...but...if you got your last passport after 2006 you also got a nice page with a beautiful eagle on it...This page is a tracking device that can be scanned to know where you are traveling....Next time getting into America...if you are questioned...you know why.

I am not inventing this...I have a close friend working for the CIA in America..and he has very interesting things to talk about his work...and the US.

I will adopt the Thai citizenship without doubts if I can...

[Sheryl]

Do I understand correctly, the first 96000 US$ you earn abroad/offshore is tax free?....

Correct as regards federal income tax provided you have either established a permanent home abroad or been out of the country 330 days out of 365 -- and are not employed by the US government.

If you are self-employed you will, however, still have to pay self-employment tax. On the plus side, this keeps you eligible for SS disability and affects your eligibility for SS pension. Which you can collect living abroad.

States vary in whether or not they tax income earned out of state, but of course any expat with any sense will have seen to it they are "domiciled" in a state that does not.

[YeaBiGgiEs]

WelI for one would not give it up merely because I receive a monthly check to the day I die. Having said that other than my having a US PASSPORT there is no other benefit that I gain from being a US citizen and I wipe my tooshie with the american flag

[SeabagsFull]

I think in California they pay capital gains on the sale of a house, even if it's their primary residence. So my Uncle who bought his house in West Covina in 1975 cannot afford to move.

Washington state would be my choice.

I sold my home in California in 2003; California Franchise Tax Board (FTB) allowed the same profit exclusion as the IRS. I.e., the first $250K for single filers or $500K for couples is not taxed & doesn't need to be reported.

When I moved to Thailand in 2004, I simply closed my California bank accounts & sent a change of address to the FTB. I then filed a partial-year residence return for 2004. After that, I was free & clear & only filed fed returns thereafter. The only negative I faced was regarding voting. Though fed rules state that I could still vote based on my last stateside address, California registration requirements spooked me a bit; I could envision being suddenly on the hook for state taxes again, so I balked.

[Emdog]

800,000 baht I keep for retirement visa is under the threshold, so I don't care about that part of taxation. I don't pay state taxes anymore because I live here. When I go to USA, customs say I am a non-resident, so can't bring so many presents in duty free (that may be a plus?). Thing that does anger me is that medicare does not cover US citizens living abroad, though government is still happy to take our money. Paying taxes is part of being a citizen. Somebody has to pay for these wars we seem to enjoy participating in!