Mixed Thai/Farang offspring - should I get them Thai nationality

[Arkady]

I was under the impression that if you already have a passport from another country then the Thai authorities would not give you a Thai passport (no duel passport if the child already has a passport from country xxxxxx, even if born with a Thai parent)

Maybe chinese wispers, my son holds both.

No this is not true. In fact my kids hold both too and sometimes are asked to show both at Thai immigration (to show their eligibility to fly to their destination without a visa). The last PM held both Thai and British passports. Its not new. My Thai wife also holds dual nationality and has both passports.

And the PM before that! (Taksin) Thailand and Montenegro.

Two diplomatic passports no less - now that has top be contentious.

Or had his Thai passport already been cancelled at the point he purchased the Montenegro one. Though when his new one was illegal created by the present government (under cloak and dagger) I doubt he burned the other.

Whether Thaksin had a currently valid Thai passport makes no difference. He had Thai nationality at the time and that is something that can't be taken away from him. Before becoming Montenegrin he was Nicaraguan and probably still is. He is also rumoured to be Fijian and Ugandan.

[Arkady]

I thought I had read a ThaiVisa thread in the past whereby a Thai/Farang child had waited too late to cash in on his right to Thai citizenship.

So today, 10-04-2013 U.S. PST, I called the Thai Embassy in Los Angeles, California, for confirmation. Per the Legalization Department representative, "there are no age limit restrictions. Girl or boy, they can wait until they are 40 or 50 or whenever to get a Thai birth certificate if they want to."

My only reservation would be that, as someone who lived in Thailand for several years knows, Thais sometime speak with authority when they otherwise lack precise knowledge. I absolutely mean no disrespect toward Thai people, but a common characteristic I've noted is that a Thai doesn't like to say, "I don't know" or "I'm not sure." Of course, we all know exceptions to this.

All that said, the girl I spoke with was representing the Legalization Department, so my feeling is that there is no age limit as to when you or your child could apply for his or her birth certificate.

Personally, I want my children to have all doors open to them, & I don't necessarily trust the applicable laws of today (including both Thailand's & my home country's) to remain unchanged tomorrow. As many posters here have stated, there's no harm in getting the papers now while you still can.

The relevant legislation is Section 7 of the Nationality Act:

Section 7. The following persons acquire Thai nationality by birth:

A person born of a father or a mother of Thai nationality, whether within or outside the Thai Kingdom;

That means there are Thai and there are no age limits prescribed for Thai citizens to apply for relevant documents from their government.

[wolf5370]

<QUOTE: Wolf5370 on 04 Oct 2013>

<QUOTE: ChiangMainSausage on 04 Oct 2103>

I was under the impression that if you already have a passport from another country then the Thai authorities would not give you a Thai passport (no duel passport if the child already has a passport from country xxxxxx, even if born with a Thai parent)

Maybe chinese wispers, my son holds both.

<END QUOTE: ChiangMainSausage on 04 Oct 2103

No this is not true. In fact my kids hold both too and sometimes are asked to show both at Thai immigration (to show their eligibility to fly to their destination without a visa). The last PM held both Thai and British passports. Its not new. My Thai wife also holds dual nationality and has both passports.

<END QUOTE: Wolf5370 on 04 Oct 2013>

And the PM before that! (Taksin) Thailand and Montenegro.

Two diplomatic passports no less - now that has top be contentious.

Or had his Thai passport already been cancelled at the point he purchased the Montenegro one. Though when his new one was illegal created by the present government (under cloak and dagger) I doubt he burned the other.

Whether Thaksin had a currently valid Thai passport makes no difference. He had Thai nationality at the time and that is something that can't be taken away from him. Before becoming Montenegrin he was Nicaraguan and probably still is. He is also rumoured to be Fijian and Ugandan.

Yes, but this is not what ChiangMaiSausage was talking about - he was specifically talking about holding two passports not two (or more) citizenships.

[belg]

too bad we cannot and will never enjoy

the thai dual nationality that thais seem to get so easy with just marrying the farang in our countries

no, we are kept on a short leech and have to go begg every year for our 1 year permission to spend our money, period

[David48]

too bad we cannot and will never enjoy

the thai dual nationality that thais seem to get so easy with just marrying the farang in our countries

no, we are kept on a short leech and have to go begg every year for our 1 year permission to spend our money, period

Actually, your post is a little unfair.

'dual nationality' does not come through marrying someone ... it comes through become a citizen of the second country ... something you have an option to do in Thailand.

However, your for your children ... that maybe an automatic right, depending on your nationality.

You can read about becoming a Thai Citizen here ... acquiring-thai-nationality

[Arkady]

too bad we cannot and will never enjoy

the thai dual nationality that thais seem to get so easy with just marrying the farang in our countries

no, we are kept on a short leech and have to go begg every year for our 1 year permission to spend our money, period

Actually, your post is a little unfair.

'dual nationality' does not come through marrying someone ... it comes through become a citizen of the second country ... something you have an option to do in Thailand.

However, your for your children ... that maybe an automatic right, depending on your nationality.

You can read about becoming a Thai Citizen here ... acquiring-thai-nationality

Unfortunately that piece on acquiring Thai nationality you refer to is very misleading. It is full of inaccuracies and even suggests you can apply for naturalisation as a Thai at a Thai Embassy abroad. LOL. Those interested would be better to look at this thread http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/121353-story-of-my-thai-citizenship-application/ which is, in contrast, a mine of useful information.

You do, in fact, have the option to apply for Thai citizenship, if you are married to a Thai and living in Thailand, but foreign males with Thai wives need to be working with a work permit and paying tax to qualify. Foreign women with Thai husbands do not which I agree is not fair but the law only changed to allow foreign men with Thai wives to apply without permanent residence first in 2008. So some progress has been made.

It is still much more difficult than for foreigners with local spouses living in Western countries because the main difference, apart from men required to be in employment, is that there is a lack of transparency in the Thai process and it is not subject to judicial review. That means it can take many, many years and you cannot complain or appeal. I think it is the transparency that needs to be improved in Thailand, more urgently than the qualifications because having easier qualifications means nothing, if you still can't get it and will never find out why not.

Also take into account that not all Western countries allow dual nationality. Countries like Germany and Austria are extremely anal about this (mainly due to their large Turkish populations) and demand evidence that the former nationality has genuinely been renounced. For Thais this means that they can't automatically get their Thai nationality back, although there is a process but it is subject to the same delays and lack of transparency as everyone else. Some Asian countries demand to see evidence of renunciation too, i.e. Singapore, Malaysia, Korea, Japan, Taiwan. Thailand is not the worst. They ask for a declaration of intent to renounce and inform embassies about new citizens from their countries but don't demand evidence of renunciation.

[SeabagsFull]

Unfortunately that piece on acquiring Thai nationality you refer to is very misleading. It is full of inaccuracies and even suggests you can apply for naturalisation as a Thai at a Thai Embassy abroad. LOL. Those interested would be better to look at this thread http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/121353-story-of-my-thai-citizenship-application/ which is, in contrast, a mine of useful information.

You do, in fact, have the option to apply for Thai citizenship, if you are married to a Thai and living in Thailand, but foreign males with Thai wives need to be working with a work permit and paying tax to qualify. Foreign women with Thai husbands do not which I agree is not fair but the law only changed to allow foreign men with Thai wives to apply without permanent residence first in 2008. So some progress has been made.

It is still much more difficult than for foreigners with local spouses living in Western countries because the main difference, apart from men required to be in employment, is that there is a lack of transparency in the Thai process and it is not subject to judicial review. That means it can take many, many years and you cannot complain or appeal. I think it is the transparency that needs to be improved in Thailand, more urgently than the qualifications because having easier qualifications means nothing, if you still can't get it and will never find out why not.

Also take into account that not all Western countries allow dual nationality. Countries like Germany and Austria are extremely anal about this (mainly due to their large Turkish populations) and demand evidence that the former nationality has genuinely been renounced. For Thais this means that they can't automatically get their Thai nationality back, although there is a process but it is subject to the same delays and lack of transparency as everyone else. Some Asian countries demand to see evidence of renunciation too, i.e. Singapore, Malaysia, Korea, Japan, Taiwan. Thailand is not the worst. They ask for a declaration of intent to renounce and inform embassies about new citizens from their countries but don't demand evidence of renunciation.

To Arkady post #36, good information. The link you provide is to a banned member who provided a better link: http://www.phuketgazette.net/issuesanswers/details.asp?id=759. That link mentions what I've been told by Thai Immigration in Udon Thani, that having a Non Immigrant "Other" visa based on marriage also qualifies you to apply, that no work permit is required in that case. Retirement-based visas, however, do not qualify.

It is the "declaration of intent to renounce" that you mentioned that scared me off of pursuiing this. Though supposedly you don't have to go through with actually renouncing your other citizenship, it could be enough to trigger problems for military retirees in countries like the U.S.. Additionally, Thailand has long embraced a strong nationalist movement; a new PM could decide to retroactively enforce the "intent" by demanding proof from naturalized citizens which would end a military retiree's monthly patments.

[David48]

the thai dual nationality that thais seem to get so easy with just marrying the farang in our countries

You can read about becoming a Thai Citizen here ... acquiring-thai-nationality

Unfortunately that piece on acquiring Thai nationality you refer to is very misleading. It is full of inaccuracies and even suggests you can apply for naturalisation as a Thai at a Thai Embassy abroad. LOL. Those interested would be better to look at this thread http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/121353-story-of-my-thai-citizenship-application/ which is, in contrast, a mine of useful information.

Thanks for that ... your reference was the Thread I was looking for, but the search function failed to offer up that information ...

.

[scorecard]

So what is so wrong with Serving your country? It builds character....

Ask a few current / past conscripts, many will tell you it's nothing more than a waste of 2 years. and in some cases a waste of two years and also interrupted their studies.

[samran]

So what is so wrong with Serving your country? It builds character....

Ask a few current / past conscripts, many will tell you it's nothing more than a waste of 2 years. and in some cases a waste of two years and also interrupted their studies.

Indeed.

I mean, I wonder what gives kiniyow the right to make a character assessment of the OP's kids? 99% of people build their character through non-military means. Not all of us like kiniyow were born screwups and needed basic training to somehow straighten us out.

I always get sick of these moronic GI Joe's who like to come and hijack these threads with such questions when all the OP was trying to do was undertake a bit of an assessment on the possibility and the consequences of organising a Thai PP for his kids.

Even more stupid that the questioning comes following answers where it has been clearly explained that participating in the conscription process isn't compulsory for everyone, and there are clearly defined guidelines under Thai law that leave such openings.

[farang000999]

Go down to the lottery drawing and pay to make sure that his ball is selected. The Thai men in charge will first be confused but then you will exchange a glance and a nod of respect and an unspoken knowing among men. You take your boy down to the local whorehouse the night before he is to leave and get him three of the dirtiest whores in the place and tell him that you are waiting outside and that he is paid up for three hours. When he gets finished, you give him a rusted hunting knife and explain to him how you used it to take another man's life. Then you go home and let him sleep. Wake up the next morning, let him say good bye to his mother and drive him to the bus station. That is how you make a man out of a boy.

Edited October 7, 2013 by farang000999

[Arkady]

Unfortunately that piece on acquiring Thai nationality you refer to is very misleading. It is full of inaccuracies and even suggests you can apply for naturalisation as a Thai at a Thai Embassy abroad. LOL. Those interested would be better to look at this thread http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/121353-story-of-my-thai-citizenship-application/ which is, in contrast, a mine of useful information.

You do, in fact, have the option to apply for Thai citizenship, if you are married to a Thai and living in Thailand, but foreign males with Thai wives need to be working with a work permit and paying tax to qualify. Foreign women with Thai husbands do not which I agree is not fair but the law only changed to allow foreign men with Thai wives to apply without permanent residence first in 2008. So some progress has been made.

It is still much more difficult than for foreigners with local spouses living in Western countries because the main difference, apart from men required to be in employment, is that there is a lack of transparency in the Thai process and it is not subject to judicial review. That means it can take many, many years and you cannot complain or appeal. I think it is the transparency that needs to be improved in Thailand, more urgently than the qualifications because having easier qualifications means nothing, if you still can't get it and will never find out why not.

Also take into account that not all Western countries allow dual nationality. Countries like Germany and Austria are extremely anal about this (mainly due to their large Turkish populations) and demand evidence that the former nationality has genuinely been renounced. For Thais this means that they can't automatically get their Thai nationality back, although there is a process but it is subject to the same delays and lack of transparency as everyone else. Some Asian countries demand to see evidence of renunciation too, i.e. Singapore, Malaysia, Korea, Japan, Taiwan. Thailand is not the worst. They ask for a declaration of intent to renounce and inform embassies about new citizens from their countries but don't demand evidence of renunciation.

To Arkady post #36, good information. The link you provide is to a banned member who provided a better link: http://www.phuketgazette.net/issuesanswers/details.asp?id=759. That link mentions what I've been told by Thai Immigration in Udon Thani, that having a Non Immigrant "Other" visa based on marriage also qualifies you to apply, that no work permit is required in that case. Retirement-based visas, however, do not qualify.

It is the "declaration of intent to renounce" that you mentioned that scared me off of pursuiing this. Though supposedly you don't have to go through with actually renouncing your other citizenship, it could be enough to trigger problems for military retirees in countries like the U.S.. Additionally, Thailand has long embraced a strong nationalist movement; a new PM could decide to retroactively enforce the "intent" by demanding proof from naturalized citizens which would end a military retiree's monthly patments.

That except from the Phuket from 2004 is out of date in some respects. The 2008 Nationality of Act introduced some important amendments and the Interior Ministry published new guidelines for applicants in October 2009. I have attached my own translation of the latter for your interest (no responsibility taken for any inaccuracies).

The 2008 amendments still didn't make the law totally gender unbiased and your understanding, unfortunately, only applies to foreign women married to Thai men applying under Section 9 of the Act which is unchanged since 1965. Foreign males with Thai spouses gained the right to apply without the need to obtain permanent residence first but they still apply under Section 10 which means you must have an occupation in Thailand, the same as males without Thai spouses. You need to present 3 calendar years' of notarised tax receipts for salaries tax earned from a job in Thailand and be able to show a valid work permit for the whole period and maintain one throughout the entire application process. However, the minimum salary requirement is reduced from B80k per month to B40k, if you have a Thai wife and you will be excused from singing the National and Royal Anthems but still need to be conversant in Thai to get through all the interviews.

Immigration is not the place to ask about citizenship because they have nothing to do with the process. The best source of information is Special Branch at the Police National Headquarters in Phatumwan, Bangkok. They process applications for Bkk residents and it is the only dedicated naturalisation office in the county apart from the Interior Ministry which is unapproachable. You can walk in to Special Branch Bkk any time during civil services hours without an appointment and enquire or call them. It is advisable to check all details with them before you apply, even if you live in the provinces which means you have to apply to Special Branch in your province. There is a risk that provincial police will screw up your application, if they agree to process it at all, because they couldn't be bothered to check the procedure. That would mean that when the Interior Ministry gets around to looking at your file about 3 years later, they may reject you, if they find a mistake, or send the file back for correction, if it is not too bad.

It may be academic, if you don't have a work permit, but looking at the last two PMs, neither had much motivation to "crack down" on dual nationality. Abhisit is British and Yingluck's brother is openly Montenegrin and was, at least for a while Nicaraguan, not to mention credible suggestions that he is also a Fijian and a Ugandan. The PM herself might even have picked up a new passport on her recent state visit to Montenegro because you never know in the volatile world of politics. Of course, anything is possible and the ministry would no doubt love to be able to do what you suggest. However, discussions by the ministry's legal committee prior to the 2008 amendments that are posted openly online suggest that they are very worried about being sued as a result of doing anything that is not expressly legal in the Act or the Constitution. Many things remain in a grey area which probably makes them reluctant to go further at the present time but they might get more bold in future. We can't say. You can be sure that they have made numerous proposals over the years to governments to amend the Act to make dual nationality expressly illegal but so far none have succeeded. One attempt succeeded in 1992 but the law was swiftly amended again three weeks later, deleting the offending clauses to do with look krung dual nationals, probably at the behest of someone quite important. There are clearly conflicts of interests with influential people who either enjoy dual or plural nationality themselves or their wives or children do. There is also the issue of the thousands and thousands of dual national look krung that have been created since the Act was amended in 1992 to allow Thai women to pass their nationality to their children born anywhere in the world ad infinitum. Yes, they could pass a law only forcing naturalised Thais to surrender former nationality but the arguments for doing this would be for national security and it would therefore open a debate as to why 100 or so naturalisations a year (of whom probably half will have their nationalities cancelled by their own governments anyway) of people who have all been minutely vetted by the police, the National Intelligence Agency and the Interior Ministry pose a security threat, while maybe hundreds of thousands of look krung and Thais who have naturalised as aliens or were born in the US don't, even though they have never been vetted at all. Get the picture? As I say, there are no guarantees but...

Guidelines for Application for Naturalization 14 Oct 2009 EN.doc

[samran]

Go down to the lottery drawing and pay to make sure that his ball is selected. The Thai men in charge will first be confused but then you will exchange a glance and a nod of respect and an unspoken knowing among men. You take your boy down to the local whorehouse the night before he is to leave and get him three of the dirtiest whores in the place and tell him that you are waiting outside and that he is paid up for three hours. When he gets finished, you give him a rusted hunting knife and explain to him how you used it to take another man's life. Then you go home and let him sleep. Wake up the next morning, let him say good bye to his mother and drive him to the bus station. That is how you make a man out of a boy.

5555

And when the kid comes home to his trailer park 2 years later to resume fiddle playing lessons, and shack up with a woman who is both his wife and half sister, he'll be grateful. And so will the nation.

[Arkady]

Go down to the lottery drawing and pay to make sure that his ball is selected. The Thai men in charge will first be confused but then you will exchange a glance and a nod of respect and an unspoken knowing among men. You take your boy down to the local whorehouse the night before he is to leave and get him three of the dirtiest whores in the place and tell him that you are waiting outside and that he is paid up for three hours. When he gets finished, you give him a rusted hunting knife and explain to him how you used it to take another man's life. Then you go home and let him sleep. Wake up the next morning, let him say good bye to his mother and drive him to the bus station. That is how you make a man out of a boy.

5555

And when the kid comes home to his trailer park 2 years later to resume fiddle playing lessons, and shack up with a woman who is both his wife and half sister, he'll be grateful. And so will the nation.

Careful with those wife half sister insinuations Samran. Historically some might not have agreed with you.