Have You Ever Met a Thai Apologist?

[HerbalEd]

I've been accused of being an apologist ... although I beg to differ. What I do do however, is try to keep things in perspective and not take one or a few bad incident or situation and make broad sweeping generalities about the whole Thai population.

Unfortunately a lot of people let their emotions rule their logical mind. I think you have to be careful with words like "always" & "never" & "every time" .... "everybody/one" ... etc. Life and people are seldom like that.

I do think there are some posters on TV.com who are down right compulsive about bashing Thais ... esp. Thai women. And some seem to get some sort of perverted pleasure from it and are very quick to assume the worst of the Thais.

Let's face it ... living in a tropical third-world country definitely has it's challenges. Many things definitely don't work as well as they do "back home." That's just the way it is ... but some people take it way too personally and can't seem to accept it and bitch about it way too much. Getting one's dander and blood pressure up about things that are inevitable and you can't change is really stupid ... esp. doing it over and over and over again. No wonder the Thais laugh at us when we do this.

I certainly don't always achieve this ideal I espouse. I too can get very pissed at a cheating taxi driver or stupid driver. But when I do, my Thai wife gives me that look and reminds me ... chi yin yin.

Edited October 22, 2013 by HerbalEd

[dao16]

Here's another TV definition of Thai Apologist (recently seen on TV):

Westerner who contends, often vehemently and with name-calling, that the word faring can never be racist.

Anyone ever meet this person, in person?

Yes, the word "Farang" is racist, and biggest problem is, so many of us, happily and naively refer to ourselves as that as well. Many of us love to be the dancing monkey and receive the attention being the "crazy farang". And in the next sentence, somewhat amusing, complaining about us being victims of discrimination.

What Thai words would you prefer to be used by Thais to describe Caucasians when referring to them as a group in the 3rd person?

Caucasians?

Really?

Geez.

How about:

The gentleman at the counter.

The young woman at teller number three.

The lady at table four.

The blond man in the red shirt.

The customer waiting out front.

That man there, carrying the umbrella, needs a taxi.

The lady with red hair and two little girls needs a doctor.

The guest in room 301.

The folks who ordered the pizza.

The people at the counter, buying tickets for the ferry.

That really hot dude driving the Ducati, named Cool.

Our: customer; guest; patron; client; patient; visitor; foreigner; diner; passenger; contestant; tourist; border; lodger; buyer, etc, etc, etc ....

BUT, NO!

It's always:

Farang.

Farang.

Farang.

Farang.

Farang.

Farang.

Farang.

Farang.

Farang.

Farang.

Farang.

Farang.

Farang.

Farang.

Well, I think the word is perfectly fine....what you are getting at it a deeper problem, which is how people here see the world.

It's the difference between me being back in the US, seeing an Asian guy (a customer, for example) and thinking "wonder what this guy wants?" I would only really focus on the "Asian" part of it if he did something drastically different from what I expected or if there were language issues.

In Thailand (and, honestly.....the vast majority of Asia), people immediately set up the "other" wall--and not just with "falangs," but with other Asians as well. The in-groups and out-groups are more defined here, from family moving outward, "falang" being one component of that categorization.

All that is true, and that seems to be the part that bothers you (and bothers most people, me included). I just don't think the word itself is the problem. It is just a word like "African" or "Asian" or "Middle Easterner" and so on.

[Toscano]

Most ordinary Thais are unaware that anything might be wrong or that someone or something Thai might have caused offence .

Thais would not consciously apologise , because it is not customary for them to do so , they are not aware of the little niceties of western good manners .

[LingLek]

You won't find them in bars, frothing over a Chang, or getting their buttocks tattooed.

[mok199]

this is their battle field...why would they ever say sorry.....

[smotherb]

How long before one of the posts on this thread telling people to go home?

Okay, anyone who thinks it's so bad here in Thailand ought to go home, or somewhere else.

[kikoman]

Guesthouse

I realize in post #75 you stated "So let me explain what is it I dislike about people attacking others for giving negative views about Thailand" So you state you dislike people that attack others for giving negative views about Thailand, you stated that you are selective in your dislike for attacks on those give negative views about Thailand and you did not address such dislike for attacks on a members rights to give "Positive" views about Thailand.

You make it a point to attack the messenger, who gives positive views of Thailand, that you do not agree with not the message

In a post I answered you again made a sweeping generalization "someone who is unable to accept any criticism of Thailand, Thai society, politics, culture of Thai people, who will on principal defend any aspect of Thai society, politics etc".

covers anyone who has ever professed to liking Thailand.

Then your rant stated "Coincidentally, they are often people who have never taken part in the political or social development of the society they came from-seldom even bothered to vote"

You go on to rant "Yet appear with such regularity behind a keyboard" and "Face to Face Questioning- The Stuttering"

Now my observation, As many of your post on this thread where aimed at me, I responded to your rant about Political process as an elected Chicano School Board Member, A delegate to the Presidential election for the Democratic party, a appointed Commissioner to the Pima Commission on Human Relation. Yet you failed to respond to my post. indicating you again knew you are wrong.

Please direct me to any post where I have ever defended Thai Society, politics, all aspects of the Thai Culture, a man of your integrity should be able to do that,

But Last but not least is your statement that I assume your suggesting that a person who think positive about Thailand.would hide behind the safety of a computer and would back away from meeting you face to face, Wrong again! The next time your down Nakhon Sawan way PM me and I will go meet you, face to face and inform you to your face that you are full of it.

Cheers:

Edited October 22, 2013 by kikoman

[Maggusoil]

No where is perfect. Except Queensland. That would be perfect except for the Queenslanders.

Get my drift?

The thing that aggravates is all the comments that go on about the supposedly unique faults of Thais and Thailand that can be found anywhere on the planet.

Its as if these commentators have never lived anywhere else. Or never opened their eyes anywhere else.

While the nitpickers, daily have their tweezers out seizing upon every imperfection, like madonnas with their mirrors, there is a lot of joy here and actual reasons it is statistically one of the world's most popular tourism destinations, and has been for many years. Also one of the world's most popular destinations for retirees, and its not just the scenery.

The nit pickers should also be aware, that sprouting negativity is revealing their insides and general ignorance.

[kikoman]

Just for the record the Cambridge Dictionaries Online definition:

APOLOGIST "A person who supports a particular belief or political system,especially an unpopular one and speaks or writes in defense of it"

Cheers:

[Emdog]

Correct me if I am wrong, dear kee noks, but wai ing someone younger than you is believed to bring bad luck... am I wrong?

"I find Thai bashers really irritating as they just show themselves to be hypocritical arrogant bullies. It's as if they have brought their bitterness with them over here."

Might want to check dictionary. Hypocrite: a person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings. Doesn't seem to fit. Bullies is a bit of a stretch. I see the bashing as healthier than going out and literally bashing some. It is very easy to grow some bitterness here. You don't need to bring from home.

[orpheus454]

Everyone has good days and bad days in Thailand. Greenhorn expats who have yet to realise that their core values as humans are both utterly worthless and incomprehensible to ALL Thais they will meet, generally have lots of good days and enjoy poncing around in their orange clown pants telling everyone how great things are going, how great the local thais who play football on the beach are and how everybody is bending over backwards to help them out. What they don;t realise is that all this help they are getting comes with a price. The day of reckoning is never far away for a green horn in Thailand.

However, if you can remain ignorant and unconcerned about your surroundings and just get on with loving the climate, food, wenches and beer then you'll probably have lots of good days to follow (as long as you keep it in moderation!), but as soon as you try to impose any sort of control over your fellow thais (business/finances/wench/home) you'll come unstuck unless you are absolutely minted and mingle with the high soc.

Thai Apologists generally behave as such because they're either clever enough not to blow cash on anything other than rent and consumables, or because they've yet to be ripped off.

In answer, no, I have never met a serious apologist, at least not one I would give the time of day to.

Simply bizarre...!

How someone can think like this is utterly beyond me, I'm afraid.

[circusman]

I met one today! he said sorry for me having to return to the immigration office because he forgot to take a photo copy of one of the pages from my passport. He was the chief as well!

It is not made very clear in this post about who is doing the apologizing. I think, think, it is westerners apologizing for some Thai behavior and not Thais that apologize.

In 15 years in various parts of Thailand I heard a thai twice say he was sorry to me. Memorable occasions for sure lol.

[AYJAYDEE]

I was (past tense) a Thai apologist. Not to the extent that I couldn't see some negatives, but I almost always made excuses for them.

With the coming of the Red Shirts, however, I moved over into the other column. Again, I can still see the good things, but the rose colored glasses are definitely off.

and the nonsense the yellow shirts pulled never bothered you?

Bothered me yes. But it paled in comparison.

no it didnt

[ayayay]

Yes, the word "Farang" is racist, and biggest problem is, so many of us, happily and naively refer to ourselves as that as well. Many of us love to be the dancing monkey and receive the attention being the "crazy farang". And in the next sentence, somewhat amusing, complaining about us being victims of discrimination.

What Thai words would you prefer to be used by Thais to describe Caucasians when referring to them as a group in the 3rd person?

Caucasians?

Really?

Geez.

How about:

The gentleman at the counter.

The young woman at teller number three.

The lady at table four.

The blond man in the red shirt.

The customer waiting out front.

That man there, carrying the umbrella, needs a taxi.

The lady with red hair and two little girls needs a doctor.

The guest in room 301.

The folks who ordered the pizza.

The people at the counter, buying tickets for the ferry.

That really hot dude driving the Ducati, named Cool.

Our: customer; guest; patron; client; patient; visitor; foreigner; diner; passenger; contestant; tourist; border; lodger; buyer, etc, etc, etc ....

BUT, NO!

It's always:

Farang.

Farang.

Farang.

Farang.

Farang.

Farang.

Farang.

Farang.

Farang.

Farang.

Farang.

Farang.

Farang.

Farang.

Well, I think the word is perfectly fine....what you are getting at it a deeper problem, which is how people here see the world.

It's the difference between me being back in the US, seeing an Asian guy (a customer, for example) and thinking "wonder what this guy wants?" I would only really focus on the "Asian" part of it if he did something drastically different from what I expected or if there were language issues.

In Thailand (and, honestly.....the vast majority of Asia), people immediately set up the "other" wall--and not just with "falangs," but with other Asians as well.

My experience with other Asian countries is that, sure there is the "other" wall with white people to a CERTAIN degree, however, never EVER have I experienced any culture who are so extremely focused on pointing out the race/color than Thais.

In what other asian country will you, every other second, hear the word for "white person" in that language? And furthermore, the expats living there, happily calling themselves the same word??

Sure every language has its own term for white people, but it is not as huge as a concept in those countries, as it is in Thailand.

I do not know of anything similar in any other Asian country.

[dao16]

My experience with other Asian countries is that, sure there is the "other" wall with white people to a CERTAIN degree, however, never EVER have I experienced any culture who are so extremely focused on pointing out the race/color than Thais.

In what other asian country will you, every other second, hear the word for "white person" in that language? And furthermore, the expats living there, happily calling themselves the same word??

Sure every language has its own term for white people, but it is not as huge as a concept in those countries, as it is in Thailand.

I do not know of anything similar in any other Asian country.

China--Laowai--Shouted at you while pointing and possibly wrecking cars (ask someone who has lived there a while, especially in the countryside) and possibly jumping......I could go on. Yeah, like Thailand, they have another word for "kon dang bratet," but this is the one you hear.

Korea--WaeGukIn--"Outside people." So, not just whiteys, but really mostly applied to people of European descent and to dark skinned people from SE Asia. When they aren't saying that right in your face and are feeling a little surly, they have a variety of words to choose from, like "yang ko" or "long nose," which really doesn't have any positive connotation, unless they are making a connection between that and your member, which is, let's say it, kind of racist as well.

Japan--Gaijin--Again, outside people, but mostly used to refer to people who are obviously not from Japan or NE Asia.

Ok, I am tired, so let's do this...most of the rest of SE Asia is Falang or balang or some variant of that word.

Travel around Asia and you will see it. Go on some "falang" forums from other Asian countries and you will find the same types of complaints. Thailand may be up there in world terms, but it is about par for the course when it comes to Asia.

[dunks]

That would be Scotland! ;-)

All in moderation.

I find Thai bashers really irritating as they just show themselves to be hypocritical arrogant bullies. It's as if they have brought their bitterness with them over here.

At the same time, Thai Apologists are really annoying on here, as they are constantly looking to make sure no-one is saying a bad word and are always defending the inexcusable.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with having a little moan about some things and ways here (all in moderation); I mean let's face it Thais often laugh and whinge about us, so why can't I have a little moan when people walk too slowly in front of me or that too many people here are obsessed with talking about food all the time - as long as it isn't vicious bashing or generalising Thai people in a horrible and offensive way, then there's nothing wrong with it.

And at the same time, it's good to see people stick up for Thais on here; it's just annoying when people aren't being offensive or nasty and just having a little moan or pointing out something from the news and you get accused of Thai bashing.

I did see one guy who might have been a Thai Apologist, I guess, in the way that he acted, thought he was Thai (people who think they are Thai are ridiculous). He moaned at myself for not being good with my Thai, then went over to a motorbike taxi driver and wah'd him before hopping on. Never even seen a Thai do that. He looked completely ridiculous.

(people who think they are Thai are ridiculous). Yes! you hit the nail on the head,they are so ridiculous,they don't even know the Thais are laughing at them,and as for accepting them as brothers it's so pathetic,I suspect even their own Country and Kin are very happy to see them go native in Thailand.

The Walter Mitty Dreamers,escaping from reality, just keep on coming.......they walk amongst us!

In nearly 18 years in Thailand I have never met anyone who was 100% accepted. I take it to be very basic racial thing.

There are just some gangs you can't join no matter how hard you try.

Very true,I think you have a very good point ,there are some places even in the UK,that you can be living in,and still not be totally accepted after 15 or 20 years,even being British, moving from one County or part of the Country to another.

[HeavyDrinker]

My experience with other Asian countries is that, sure there is the "other" wall with white people to a CERTAIN degree, however, never EVER have I experienced any culture who are so extremely focused on pointing out the race/color than Thais.

In what other asian country will you, every other second, hear the word for "white person" in that language? And furthermore, the expats living there, happily calling themselves the same word??

Sure every language has its own term for white people, but it is not as huge as a concept in those countries, as it is in Thailand.

I do not know of anything similar in any other Asian country.

China--Laowai--Shouted at you while pointing and possibly wrecking cars (ask someone who has lived there a while, especially in the countryside) and possibly jumping......I could go on. Yeah, like Thailand, they have another word for "kon dang bratet," but this is the one you hear.

Korea--WaeGukIn--"Outside people." So, not just whiteys, but really mostly applied to people of European descent and to dark skinned people from SE Asia. When they aren't saying that right in your face and are feeling a little surly, they have a variety of words to choose from, like "yang ko" or "long nose," which really doesn't have any positive connotation, unless they are making a connection between that and your member, which is, let's say it, kind of racist as well.

Japan--Gaijin--Again, outside people, but mostly used to refer to people who are obviously not from Japan or NE Asia.

Ok, I am tired, so let's do this...most of the rest of SE Asia is Falang or balang or some variant of that word.

Travel around Asia and you will see it. Go on some "falang" forums from other Asian countries and you will find the same types of complaints. Thailand may be up there in world terms, but it is about par for the course when it comes to Asia.

And your point is?

Does that make it right because it happens elsewhere?

I recall getting smacked silly off me mum the first time I ever saw an African man and made the sort of comment a 6 year old would.

[dao16]

My experience with other Asian countries is that, sure there is the "other" wall with white people to a CERTAIN degree, however, never EVER have I experienced any culture who are so extremely focused on pointing out the race/color than Thais.

In what other asian country will you, every other second, hear the word for "white person" in that language? And furthermore, the expats living there, happily calling themselves the same word??

Sure every language has its own term for white people, but it is not as huge as a concept in those countries, as it is in Thailand.

I do not know of anything similar in any other Asian country.

China--Laowai--Shouted at you while pointing and possibly wrecking cars (ask someone who has lived there a while, especially in the countryside) and possibly jumping......I could go on. Yeah, like Thailand, they have another word for "kon dang bratet," but this is the one you hear.

Korea--WaeGukIn--"Outside people." So, not just whiteys, but really mostly applied to people of European descent and to dark skinned people from SE Asia. When they aren't saying that right in your face and are feeling a little surly, they have a variety of words to choose from, like "yang ko" or "long nose," which really doesn't have any positive connotation, unless they are making a connection between that and your member, which is, let's say it, kind of racist as well.

Japan--Gaijin--Again, outside people, but mostly used to refer to people who are obviously not from Japan or NE Asia.

Ok, I am tired, so let's do this...most of the rest of SE Asia is Falang or balang or some variant of that word.

Travel around Asia and you will see it. Go on some "falang" forums from other Asian countries and you will find the same types of complaints. Thailand may be up there in world terms, but it is about par for the course when it comes to Asia.

And your point is?

Does that make it right because it happens elsewhere?

I recall getting smacked silly off me mum the first time I ever saw an African man and made the sort of comment a 6 year old would.

Where in my post did I write about it being "right" or "wrong"? NOWHERE....I was responding to the previous poster.

Sorry, don't project ideas onto my post.

SUMMARY-- Poster said: Don't see this in the rest of Asia!

Me: Yes, you do.

Edited October 22, 2013 by dao16

[HeavyDrinker]

My experience with other Asian countries is that, sure there is the "other" wall with white people to a CERTAIN degree, however, never EVER have I experienced any culture who are so extremely focused on pointing out the race/color than Thais.

In what other asian country will you, every other second, hear the word for "white person" in that language? And furthermore, the expats living there, happily calling themselves the same word??

Sure every language has its own term for white people, but it is not as huge as a concept in those countries, as it is in Thailand.

I do not know of anything similar in any other Asian country.

China--Laowai--Shouted at you while pointing and possibly wrecking cars (ask someone who has lived there a while, especially in the countryside) and possibly jumping......I could go on. Yeah, like Thailand, they have another word for "kon dang bratet," but this is the one you hear.

Korea--WaeGukIn--"Outside people." So, not just whiteys, but really mostly applied to people of European descent and to dark skinned people from SE Asia. When they aren't saying that right in your face and are feeling a little surly, they have a variety of words to choose from, like "yang ko" or "long nose," which really doesn't have any positive connotation, unless they are making a connection between that and your member, which is, let's say it, kind of racist as well.

Japan--Gaijin--Again, outside people, but mostly used to refer to people who are obviously not from Japan or NE Asia.

Ok, I am tired, so let's do this...most of the rest of SE Asia is Falang or balang or some variant of that word.

Travel around Asia and you will see it. Go on some "falang" forums from other Asian countries and you will find the same types of complaints. Thailand may be up there in world terms, but it is about par for the course when it comes to Asia.

And your point is?

Does that make it right because it happens elsewhere?

I recall getting smacked silly off me mum the first time I ever saw an African man and made the sort of comment a 6 year old would.

Where in my post did I write about it being "right" or "wrong"? NOWHERE....I was responding to the previous poster.

Sorry, don't project ideas onto my post.

SUMMARY-- Poster said: Don't see this in the rest of Asia!

Me: Yes, you do.

Apologies! Head up me arse....couldn't work out what was what there.

And in India too....Videshi....

[purushanti]

Yeah, I met one. Looked in the mirror and there he was. Do not remember him from 10 years ago, but simply breathing in the inescapable Buddhism that is in the very air here, now I find that things that bothered me at first are not a matter of right and wrong, but just different. And what a joy to the Creator who manifested the Universe in order to enjoy variety, to find that, without the interference of colonialists,.Thais have been able to retain much of their own culture.

Today, for example, a fire drill---with fire, and smoke, and water provided by the partipants themselves---unheard of where I come from. Mirabile dictu! No judgment, just wonder and awe, as they do their own thing.

[GuestHouse]

Guesthouse

I realize in post #75 you stated "So let me explain what is it I dislike about people attacking others for giving negative views about Thailand" So you state you dislike people that attack others for giving negative views about Thailand, you stated that you are selective in your dislike for attacks on those give negative views about Thailand and you did not address such dislike for attacks on a members rights to give "Positive" views about Thailand.

Forgive me, I was under the impression english was your first language.

Consider these two sentences:

1. "So let me explain what it is I dislike about people attacking others for giving negative views about Thailand"

2. "So let me explain what it is I dislike about people who attack others for giving negative views about Thailand"

Do you understand the difference?

Sentence 1 indicates is a dislike of the act of people attacking others for expressing negative views about Thailand.

Sentence 2 (if it had been used) would indicate a dislike of the individual people who attack others for expressing negative views about Thailand.

I used sentence 1, I did not use sentence 2.

Further more I then go on to explain what exactly I see is the problem of individual members taking it upon themselves to attack others for making negative comments about Thailand.

I certainly make no statement about being selective in who I dislike (because I made absolutely no statement about disliking any person on the basis of their point of view) - But you are right, I made no statement about people who attack others for giving positive views of Thailand - for which I have good reason.

In my many years now as a member here, I have made numerous posts extolling the good life in Thailand the good Thai people I've had the privilege to work with, live amongst and socialise with. I can recall no occasion whatsoever when anyone has ever attacked me for giving an account of a good experience of my life in Thailand - NOT ONE SINGLE OCCASION.

Now to move this forward by going backwards.

Take some time to go back and read my post at 75 again, you know now that it is not a post commencing with a declaration of disliking people (refer worked examples above).

Re-read with this in mind and tell me if Post 75 is anything other than a well reasoned and rational argument against members attacking others for expressing negativity (within the forum rules) with well explained reasons why I think allowing such attacks to continue unchallenged is a bad idea for all members present and future.

Edited October 22, 2013 by GuestHouse

[commonparlance]

Complaining about where you live and the people you are surrounded by is probably one of the oldest human conversation topics--whether you live in the country of your birth or elsewhere. It's not going away anytime soon, and a little of it is normal and maybe healthy. On the other hand, accepting where you are (whether it is your job, your adopted homeland, whatever) and realizing that the things you don't like aren't going to change (at least not overnight) is a pretty good strategy for anyone who has committed himself to something or somewhere outside his comfort zone.

Both the extreme whiners and the extreme apologists are arrogant and insufferable, in my opinion. In my experience, the people who think that foreigners don't have the right to complain whatsoever about Thailand seem to think that this makes them "more Thai." Anyone with half a brain who lives in Thailand knows this is absurd; the Thais complain about Thailand all the time (just as Brits complain about Britain, Americans complain about the US, etc.). As a westerner, I see much in Thailand that could be improved in areas such as corruption, the education system and the treatment of minorities, to name a few.

However, as a foreigner in a foreign land, one has to be aware of cultural differences and be careful not to jump to conclusions or interpret the actions or behaviors of individuals through the lens of your home culture. The problem is that too many foreigners (expats and travelers alike) are lazy about this and don't bother to try to empathize with Thais and see where they're coming from. Complaining a bit and being able to recognize the things you don't like can be therapeutic and informative, but if you find yourself walking around consumed by anger at everything and everyone around you, day in and day out, I would question what it is that keeps you in Thailand at all?

[yoshiwara]

The 'bashers' and the 'apologists' are two sides of the same coin.

[Tchooptip]

He wai'd a motorbike taxi?

Okay, you've met one.

The best is when you see them wai'ing a go-go dancer, or door man / women in front of a go-go bar.

It's so funny, it's almost cute.

OK but none of them ever lived in Thailand !

[kevozman1]

No, but I have myself and have heard many other foreigners backing up certain things from a Thai perspective, as any fair minded person would from time to time, but I have not met a blind foreign fanboy of Thailand who defends the indefensible and White Knights the country to ridiculous lengths, they remain exclusive to TV and other forums. Reason? - People generally do not like to come across as buffoons outside of internet anonymity.

[WitawatWatawit]

How to understand an apologist. What makes him/her so vehement about not saying anything unpleasant? Part of it could be a sense of fair play. All well and good, and admirable, even if it is a generalised sentiment that usually seems to preclude specific incidents. The apologist may well have experienced many of the same frustrations that cause us to complain, but is more than ready to forgive than you and I. Again, admirable. But what actually lies behind that sentiment, that willingness to forgive the worst foibles? Is it the belief that we all must be kind to each other? Ignore the reality and accept any kind of injustice for the sake of peace and harmony? Is it being patronising? Is it, as I said in an earlier post, a question of a "little brown cousin" syndrome? Is it a superior intellect trying not to be a superior intellect in case they are seen as a superior intellect? Is just plain and simple decency? I would sincerely hope the latter.

And what is behind the mind of the basher. Many posts have tried to explain it, and some come close to the mark. I think that basically anyone who puts another person or race down in a vehement fashion could be trying to position themselves as some kind of superior individual. But, then maybe they're not. Maybe they're just drawing on their preconditioned standards of behaviour (which is not entirely wrong). Could it be that they are tired of trying to pass on those "preconditioned standards" and become frustrated because they can't? Could it be that they have hit a brick wall of intellectual cognisance that would not be acceptable in their own society? That they have sent the first-day apprentice out for a left-handed screwdriver and laughed uproariously at his/her naivety? Aah. Is this not something that all of us have done? Take the mickey out of our juniors for the sake of a cheap laugh? And then mocked the poor person for his/her ignorance? And then when that person continues to show ignorance because his/her upbringing hasn't allowed them to think out of the box, we write them off as utterly hopeless? And therefore to be castigated unreservedly?

And what of those who have gone through the emotions of apologist and then basher and then intertwined them and then grappled with them and then finally struggled to find a happy medium in order to try and live their lives with a minimum of fuss?

Many on this board, it would seem, are in this latter group, including myself. I would hate to meet me on a bad hair day. But I would also like to meet me when the sun is shining. Which fortunately is most of the time, these days. I don't wear rose coloured glasses, but rose-coloured bifocals. I only put them on when I've had my daily fill of negative news, idiotic behaviour and bashers and apologists.

(Yes, I have met Thai apologists in person. And bashers - far too many of them. But I don't need to go outside to do so. I sign in.)

Wit.

[Tchooptip]

Complaining about where you live and the people you are surrounded by is probably one of the oldest human conversation topics--whether you live in the country of your birth or elsewhere. It's not going away anytime soon, and a little of it is normal and maybe healthy. On the other hand, accepting where you are (whether it is your job, your adopted homeland, whatever) and realizing that the things you don't like aren't going to change (at least not overnight) is a pretty good strategy for anyone who has committed himself to something or somewhere outside his comfort zone.

Both the extreme whiners and the extreme apologists are arrogant and insufferable, in my opinion. In my experience, the people who think that foreigners don't have the right to complain whatsoever about Thailand seem to think that this makes them "more Thai." Anyone with half a brain who lives in Thailand knows this is absurd; the Thais complain about Thailand all the time (just as Brits complain about Britain, Americans complain about the US, etc.). As a westerner, I see much in Thailand that could be improved in areas such as corruption, the education system and the treatment of minorities, to name a few.

However, as a foreigner in a foreign land, one has to be aware of cultural differences and be careful not to jump to conclusions or interpret the actions or behaviors of individuals through the lens of your home culture. The problem is that too many foreigners (expats and travelers alike) are lazy about this and don't bother to try to empathize with Thais and see where they're coming from. Complaining a bit and being able to recognize the things you don't like can be therapeutic and informative, but if you find yourself walking around consumed by anger at everything and everyone around you, day in and day out, I would question what it is that keeps you in Thailand at all?

but if you find yourself walking around consumed by anger at everything and everyone around you, day in and day out, I would question what it is that keeps you in Thailand at all?

Maybe they do not even realise they are doing it for 99% chances they do exactly the same in their home countries

[GuestHouse]

I'd like someone to point out who the "bashers" and "haters" are.

Like everyone, I've seen negative posts about Thailand, some justified, some silly and some just plain stupid, but I can't think of any member who constantly posts negativity and hate.

[WitawatWatawit]

I'd like someone to point out who the "bashers" and "haters" are.

Like everyone, I've seen negative posts about Thailand, some justified, some silly and some just plain stupid, but I can't think of any member who constantly posts negativity and hate.

They wouldn't be allowed to here. Such people are on the fringe. They have their own subterranean gutters.

[mrtoad]

I thought I'd witnessed it all, but there are actually Chalerm apologists, and they are certainly at the bottom of the cesspool.