Freelancing in Thailand

[Kudzu]

Freelance is hard everyday work, to organize yourself, to motivate yourself, to talk with customers, to manage projects, to ... etc. Promote your skills ,)

[RAZZELL]

You'll need a WP....regardless of what the above post says.

Get caught...bye bye you. And eventually you will get caught.

Ok.....sounds good. Especially since I walked into immigration and told them I was working for foreign companies and explained that no Thais were involved. They said ok, no problem, but if you do work in Thailand with Thai companies or individuals, you will need a different visa. Actually, now I do have that as well, but only for the activities I do here in country that involve Thai companies and people.

I pay all the taxes in the countries where these companies originate and I have authorization to do that work for them legally. How would Thai immigration have anything to say about the work that I do for a Chinese company that has no operations in Thailand, for example? This is ludicrous, and I got it from the horse's mouth, so to speak.

Yeah right....

Try that argument if you lived in the USA or UK.

Simple fact - you are physically working in Thailand, therefore you require a WP! Who you work for has no bearing on it. Law is pretty clear...I'd believe statute rather than some lazy Somchai in immigration who can't be arsed...

And how exactly is the OP going to stay in Thailand? Perpetual Visa runs?

RAZZ

Edited October 28, 2013 by RAZZELL

[DrTuner]

Especially since I walked into immigration and told them I was working for foreign companies and explained that no Thais were involved. They said ok, no problem, but if you do work in Thailand with Thai companies or individuals, you will need a different visa.

Now go and try to get a written confirmation on this from them. I seriously doubt you'd get one, especially since work permits are the matter of Ministry of Labour(http://www.mol.go.th/en/anonymouse/home), not immigration (http://www.immigration.go.th/nov2004/en/base.php). Doesn't much matter what an official says about matters not belonging to them.

The law is here: http://www.thailawforum.com/database1/Alien-Working-Act.html and the definition is very clear:

Work is defined broadly to include any work involving physical strength or knowledge whether or not done for money or other remuneration. Work by aliens may only be done in accordance with regulations issued by the Ministry of Labor and may only be done with a work permit, except that no work permit is required for an alien in Thailand temporarily under the immigration laws to do necessary and urgent work for a period of up to 15 days. An alien applying for a work permit must be either a resident or authorized to enter Thailand temporarily, in each case under applicable immigration laws, and not an alien with a tourist or transit visa.

It's not possible to get a work permit without a Thai company, so the "freelancers" are basically working illegally and staying under radar. This has been discussed to death here in TV as well.

[dao16]

Especially since I walked into immigration and told them I was working for foreign companies and explained that no Thais were involved. They said ok, no problem, but if you do work in Thailand with Thai companies or individuals, you will need a different visa.

Now go and try to get a written confirmation on this from them. I seriously doubt you'd get one, especially since work permits are the matter of Ministry of Labour(http://www.mol.go.th/en/anonymouse/home), not immigration (http://www.immigration.go.th/nov2004/en/base.php). Doesn't much matter what an official says about matters not belonging to them.

The law is here: http://www.thailawforum.com/database1/Alien-Working-Act.html and the definition is very clear:

Work is defined broadly to include any work involving physical strength or knowledge whether or not done for money or other remuneration. Work by aliens may only be done in accordance with regulations issued by the Ministry of Labor and may only be done with a work permit, except that no work permit is required for an alien in Thailand temporarily under the immigration laws to do necessary and urgent work for a period of up to 15 days. An alien applying for a work permit must be either a resident or authorized to enter Thailand temporarily, in each case under applicable immigration laws, and not an alien with a tourist or transit visa.

It's not possible to get a work permit without a Thai company, so the "freelancers" are basically working illegally and staying under radar. This has been discussed to death here in TV as well.

Ok, so loads of people, especially retirees or older people are breaking the law then when they call back home and manage their rental properties in their countries to people with no connection to Thailand. Or the guys who have family businesses that they have run all their lives and now leave mostly to their children, but still call back to make some decisions. That requires a work permit?

That is most certainly "work" by your definition, but I would never get a WP for those things since Thailand is not involved. Granted, I don't have businesses or properties abroad, but I know several people who "work" like that all over the place and don't have work permits....

Anyway, I guess the revenue office is going to do an investigation on these guys, making sure that their calls to Germany are really just to chat with their family and not to oversee a business? Don't think it is happening.....because they don't care.

Now, I would agree, if you are meeting clients here all the time to set up business, or if you are operating here, outsourcing and then selling back here, you need a WP. Otherwise, Thailand is not involved.

[dao16]

You'll need a WP....regardless of what the above post says.

Get caught...bye bye you. And eventually you will get caught.

Ok.....sounds good. Especially since I walked into immigration and told them I was working for foreign companies and explained that no Thais were involved. They said ok, no problem, but if you do work in Thailand with Thai companies or individuals, you will need a different visa. Actually, now I do have that as well, but only for the activities I do here in country that involve Thai companies and people.

I pay all the taxes in the countries where these companies originate and I have authorization to do that work for them legally. How would Thai immigration have anything to say about the work that I do for a Chinese company that has no operations in Thailand, for example? This is ludicrous, and I got it from the horse's mouth, so to speak.

Yeah right....

Try that argument if you lived in the USA or UK.

Simple fact - you are physically working in Thailand, therefore you require a WP! Who you work for has no bearing on it. Law is pretty clear...I'd believe statute rather than some lazy Somchai in immigration who can't be arsed...

And how exactly is the OP going to stay in Thailand? Perpetual Visa runs?

RAZZ

I don't know how they will do their visa runs....that wasn't the question. Maybe they will just head off to Laos or Cambodia for 6 months out of the year....or anywhere else in SE Asia.

I am just talking about the WP.

And, to be clear, it would be more like "virtually" working, not physically working.

[yoshiwara]

A freelancer who would make sense is one, who for example is working in the oil industry, bases himself in Thailand, and takes contracts when and where they come up for his established skills and qualifications.

[BuriramRes]

You'll need a WP....regardless of what the above post says.

Get caught...bye bye you. And eventually you will get caught.

With all due respect, that is crap! What they say about crappy Indian freelancers is quite correct but the Parkistanese are just out of this world!

I am on the other side of the fence & it works for me because I can do all my own testing & my NZ company employs them, so no concern for the Thai government.

It took me 3 tries before I found a reasonably good developer (plus an audit from a NZ guy who works at it as a second job).

My present freelancer is an Indian lady who is a "professor cum Associate Professor (more like lecturer) at an Indian International University. She seems to do most of her freelancing at work, is slow but since I can write the specs & do all my own testing (on my own hired Aus virtual server @ $45.00/mth) it is working fine as long as I have the patience and perseverance to see it through.

Edited October 28, 2013 by BuriramRes

[Cam Khao]

Especially since I walked into immigration and told them I was working for foreign companies and explained that no Thais were involved. They said ok, no problem, but if you do work in Thailand with Thai companies or individuals, you will need a different visa.

Now go and try to get a written confirmation on this from them. I seriously doubt you'd get one, especially since work permits are the matter of Ministry of Labour(http://www.mol.go.th/en/anonymouse/home), not immigration (http://www.immigration.go.th/nov2004/en/base.php). Doesn't much matter what an official says about matters not belonging to them.

The law is here: http://www.thailawforum.com/database1/Alien-Working-Act.html and the definition is very clear:

Work is defined broadly to include any work involving physical strength or knowledge whether or not done for money or other remuneration. Work by aliens may only be done in accordance with regulations issued by the Ministry of Labor and may only be done with a work permit, except that no work permit is required for an alien in Thailand temporarily under the immigration laws to do necessary and urgent work for a period of up to 15 days. An alien applying for a work permit must be either a resident or authorized to enter Thailand temporarily, in each case under applicable immigration laws, and not an alien with a tourist or transit visa.

It's not possible to get a work permit without a Thai company, so the "freelancers" are basically working illegally and staying under radar. This has been discussed to death here in TV as well.

Ok, so loads of people, especially retirees or older people are breaking the law then when they call back home and manage their rental properties in their countries to people with no connection to Thailand. Or the guys who have family businesses that they have run all their lives and now leave mostly to their children, but still call back to make some decisions. That requires a work permit?

That is most certainly "work" by your definition, but I would never get a WP for those things since Thailand is not involved. Granted, I don't have businesses or properties abroad, but I know several people who "work" like that all over the place and don't have work permits....

Anyway, I guess the revenue office is going to do an investigation on these guys, making sure that their calls to Germany are really just to chat with their family and not to oversee a business? Don't think it is happening.....because they don't care.

Now, I would agree, if you are meeting clients here all the time to set up business, or if you are operating here, outsourcing and then selling back here, you need a WP. Otherwise, Thailand is not involved.

Yes, calling home to manage your rental properties, sending an email to your broker, absolutely anything that can be construed as work in any way requires a work permit in Thailand. The moment you lift your finger to do anything work related, regardless of where the business is located, how little effort it takes, or how long, you need a work permit. Is that clear enough?

[dao16]

Yes, calling home to manage your rental properties, sending an email to your broker, absolutely anything that can be construed as work in any way requires a work permit in Thailand. The moment you lift your finger to do anything work related, regardless of where the business is located, how little effort it takes, or how long, you need a work permit. Is that clear enough?

Ok, send out the memo to the relevant agencies, as they seem to have missed it. Nice to have finally met the legendary WP brigade. First time caller, long time listener.

[Cam Khao]

Yes, calling home to manage your rental properties, sending an email to your broker, absolutely anything that can be construed as work in any way requires a work permit in Thailand. The moment you lift your finger to do anything work related, regardless of where the business is located, how little effort it takes, or how long, you need a work permit. Is that clear enough?

Ok, send out the memo to the relevant agencies, as they seem to have missed it. Nice to have finally met the legendary WP brigade. First time caller, long time listener.

Don't shoot the messenger just because you don't like the Thai legal system. I'm pretty sure that whatever country you come from has equivalent laws.

[kennypowers]

So much bad information here.

If freelancers, who pay tax outside of Thailand and do not employ Thai staff or accept money from Thai businesses were breaking the law then every single Co-working space in Bangkok would be raided by the police each week for tea money.

But they aren't, because no one is breaking the law.

Why?

Because Thai law is yet to specifically address this type of work.

All the law firms here are well aware of this. Email Siam Legal and see the reply you get. They will tell you the same.

As another poster already pointed out, this is a problematic grey area because it would mean anyone conducting business via email, be it talking as a shareholder of a company or to tenants in the expat's home country, would constitute work and require a work permit.

What I am surprised is that some bright spark hasn't said "hang on a sec, why not tell all these online guys they can live here with a special permit and pay minimal tax compared with what they pay back home". Either that or just charge a flat per year fee for the permit.

[DrTuner]

What I am surprised is that some bright spark hasn't said "hang on a sec, why not tell all these online guys they can live here with a special permit and pay minimal tax compared with what they pay back home". Either that or just charge a flat per year fee for the permit.

Why bother. My guess is 100% of the earned money enters Thailand anyway and some ends up in VAT income, etc. Plus they probably don't want an invasion of real nerds or wannabe nerds. Also, the non-imm B visa and extensions of stay based upon employment just don't match with freelance work.

A couple of years back they did change the WP application to include an option for working without an employer. I don't know if anything ever came of that or if it's an ASEAN thing.

[SteveCNX]

I can add information from the other side of the coin. I posted some freelance work on one of those sites and was peppered with "proposals" by eager freelancers who obviously hadn't even bothered to read my RFP. I hired none of them and haven't returned to those sites. They seem like a waste of time from this would-be employer's perspective.

[RAZZELL]

You'll need a WP....regardless of what the above post says.

Get caught...bye bye you. And eventually you will get caught.

Ok.....sounds good. Especially since I walked into immigration and told them I was working for foreign companies and explained that no Thais were involved. They said ok, no problem, but if you do work in Thailand with Thai companies or individuals, you will need a different visa. Actually, now I do have that as well, but only for the activities I do here in country that involve Thai companies and people.

I pay all the taxes in the countries where these companies originate and I have authorization to do that work for them legally. How would Thai immigration have anything to say about the work that I do for a Chinese company that has no operations in Thailand, for example? This is ludicrous, and I got it from the horse's mouth, so to speak.

Yeah right....

Try that argument if you lived in the USA or UK.

Simple fact - you are physically working in Thailand, therefore you require a WP! Who you work for has no bearing on it. Law is pretty clear...I'd believe statute rather than some lazy Somchai in immigration who can't be arsed...

And how exactly is the OP going to stay in Thailand? Perpetual Visa runs?

RAZZ

I don't know how they will do their visa runs....that wasn't the question. Maybe they will just head off to Laos or Cambodia for 6 months out of the year....or anywhere else in SE Asia.

I am just talking about the WP.

And, to be clear, it would be more like "virtually" working, not physically working.

So "virtually" working is not the same as "physical" work?

So when you are tapping away on your keyboard it isn't real work? If it isn't "work" I assume you don't want to be paid for it either?

There is no difference between the "real" world and "virtual" one!!! If you sat in an office all of a sudden you have a "real" job but tapping away in your bedsit is ok?

Jokers...

RAZZ

Edited October 28, 2013 by RAZZELL

[LemonSqueeza]

any one see a problem with the definition?

Work is defined broadly to include any work ....

kind of an infinite loop by my reckoning.

[rwdrwdrwd]

There is another phrase for freelancing: it is called 'ducking and diving'.

You should stay at home or another metropolitan location (and I am not talking Bangkok here) and establish a career for yourself, otherwise you are going to be chasing your tail for the rest of your life or at least until the magic moment when you wake up and smell the coffee.

Thailand will be a dead end for you. But carry on.......................................

A freelancer who would make sense is one, who for example is working in the oil industry, bases himself in Thailand, and takes contracts when and where they come up for his established skills and qualifications.

People do operate in Thailand on a freelance basis from home at western rates, and those with experience and references have their weeks booked up often on long term arrangements. This makes more sense to me that having to travel for ad-hoc contracts.

Edited October 28, 2013 by rwdrwdrwd

[NanLaew]

....

What I am surprised is that some bright spark hasn't said "hang on a sec, why not tell all these online guys they can live here with a special permit and pay minimal tax compared with what they pay back home". Either that or just charge a flat per year fee for the permit.

How on earth would such a 'special permit' be controlled? What qualifications or evidence does one need to apply?

Do you have a laptop ? Check.

Fast internet connection? Check.

...and a pulse? Check.

You will get a stream of failed TEFL'ers, burned-out visa runners, old soaks and mongers subsisting on their pensions lining up for this 'freelancer ticket' to stay here forever.

Hey, maybe defining how to enforce this 'bus pass' is a job for one of these online freelancers to solve?

Actually, reading this thread made me burn a couple of hours on the 'net reading up on the whole enchilada. Seems like a hard way to make a living and the only way the westerners seem to make any money is by relocating to countries where their paltry earnings make for a livable existence. No career path or road to riches that I can see. Handy second or backup revenue stream for a semi-retired person or someone with a real job that affords them time to freelance.

I have been an industry consultant (non-virtual freelancer) since around 1995, doing hands-on work in real-world locations. The concept of being a virtual worker doesn't really exist in my sphere of expertise but I am quite happy with the average US$1500/day at the coal face.... when I feel like it.

[BradinAsia]

I have a friend who is a Ruby Dev who lives in Rayong and lives off eLance. No dramas at all. Build up a good rep for yourself and you'll be fine.

Work permit for freelancing? Seriously, so long as you're not stupidly posting real details about yourself and that you're working here you won't have a problem? Source: said friend has been here 10+ years with no dramas.

Sure. I'm sure many of us has been in a situation like that for a while. But, for the long term I personally prefer to be legal. No worries when crossing borders, no worries about funny questions by officials. I sleep better at night, truly. And I can bitch about the state of the roads with confidence, knowing that I pay taxes.

Tip for English writing: "Many of us have been..."

Of course, it's possible your freelancing language is something other than English.

Just saying...

[Crossy]

A freelancer who would make sense is one, who for example is working in the oil industry, bases himself in Thailand, and takes contracts when and where they come up for his established skills and qualifications.

+1

That would be me in a past life (I'm actually an employee now), but I'm not in O&G.

[yoshiwara]

There is another phrase for freelancing: it is called 'ducking and diving'.

You should stay at home or another metropolitan location (and I am not talking Bangkok here) and establish a career for yourself, otherwise you are going to be chasing your tail for the rest of your life or at least until the magic moment when you wake up and smell the coffee.

Thailand will be a dead end for you. But carry on.......................................

A freelancer who would make sense is one, who for example is working in the oil industry, bases himself in Thailand, and takes contracts when and where they come up for his established skills and qualifications.

People do operate in Thailand on a freelance basis from home at western rates, and those with experience and references have their weeks booked up often on long term arrangements. This makes more sense to me that having to travel for ad-hoc contracts.

I'm not sure there is much difference here and a key feature that someone is coming here with established skills, qualifications and experience. In contrast to those who are hoping to begin their careers from Thailand with a clutch of variable software skills and not much else.

[mmh8]

I can add information from the other side of the coin. I posted some freelance work on one of those sites and was peppered with "proposals" by eager freelancers who obviously hadn't even bothered to read my RFP. I hired none of them and haven't returned to those sites. They seem like a waste of time from this would-be employer's perspective.

Hi Steve I've looked at these sites. The money offered is ridiculous for the work that is being asked for. You will get what you pay for which is people happy to earn $1 per hour

[chrisinth]

As a hypothetical scenario for all the WP experts regarding on-line activities, would you be outside the bounds of your work permit if you emailed your office using a different IP away from your place of work in Thailand? Or contacted your office using say, Skype as a service for a business call? Bearing in mind off course that a work permit is given for one location (unless applied for more).

Off course not! But, it shows the complexity of the internet and the laws that surround it...............

(On my work permit I have 6 different locations which is necessary for my job as this involves inspection at different sites throughout Thailand)

[rwdrwdrwd]

I'm not sure there is much difference here and a key feature that someone is coming here with established skills, qualifications and experience. In contrast to those who are hoping to begin their careers from Thailand with a clutch of variable software skills and not much else.

It is certainly true that the OP would have much more chance of success if they put some time in to building up their skillset in an onsite and permanent role before striking out as a freelancer.

[BuriramRes]

I can add information from the other side of the coin. I posted some freelance work on one of those sites and was peppered with "proposals" by eager freelancers who obviously hadn't even bothered to read my RFP. I hired none of them and haven't returned to those sites. They seem like a waste of time from this would-be employer's perspective.

Steve, a lot of the "serious" developers on these sites do this as a "place holder" bid. They know that if they put a realistic bid in for the work they will not be looked at. As with any site their are real professionals there & also scam artists, just learn how to play the game.

[DrTuner]

The OP should base himself in Cambodia.

Problem solved overnight.

How's the internet in there ?

[yoshiwara]

I can add information from the other side of the coin. I posted some freelance work on one of those sites and was peppered with "proposals" by eager freelancers who obviously hadn't even bothered to read my RFP. I hired none of them and haven't returned to those sites. They seem like a waste of time from this would-be employer's perspective.

Steve, a lot of the "serious" developers on these sites do this as a "place holder" bid. They know that if they put a realistic bid in for the work they will not be looked at. As with any site their are real professionals there & also scam artists, just learn how to play the game.

Anybody who plays that sort of game is going to get turfed out by entrepreneurs employing them.