US court sentences 13-year-old boy to 7 years for killing neo-Nazi father

[slipperylobster]

A slap on a hand is what some people think can change an errant child into a caring and productive human being. Sometimes you just need to shock them back into reality. This kid was on the path leading to a lifetime of heinous activities. Why not scare the snot out of him with a prison sentence? He will not be put in with adults...that is for sure. If you think that he will be in the General Community of Adult Prisoners, then you need some more insight. Stiff punishment now might be a positive thing. If he really wants out, he will have to prove his worth. Education will be provided, I am sure. Perhaps leniency on the full sentence, a possible pardon.....

[amse]

So the boy gets 7 years for killing a child abuseing neo-nazi, the justice system is insane. The boy should be a neighborhood hero instead. He's going to be one really PO person when he gets out of the slammer, and may at 1st, head to the nearest neo-nazi club house and toss a bomb inside.

[HeijoshinCool]

Heijoshincool, you've got a lot of negative commentary about the Juvenile justice system, but I haven't seen anything that would suggest what you think should be done with this kid.

The reason I have a lot of commentary, is because I spent a quarter century dealing with it.

Under the current system, nothing positive can be done for this kid. It breeds criminals.

I am neither a bleeding heart, nor a hang 'em high. I'm a realist. The fixes are there, but those in power (feds) won't allow them to be implemented. There is money to be made. If there weren't, private contractors wouldn't be building prisons.

Here's a very basic example that illustrates how the feds control the states, counties, and municipalities.

My first two years as a cop were county. In 1982, the county jail was 50% full, or less. But the sheriff nonetheless got 90% federal funding to build a new, much bigger jail. A year later, all of us road deputies were ordered to go out and make more arrests, fill up the new jail. Seven days a week.

Yep, quotas. Highly illegal, if you didn't know that already.

If we couldn't make legitimate arrests, we were told not to kick loose DWI's, or suspended licenses, or simple assaults and such, on their own recognizance, as was typical to do. Rather, we were ordered to book them into the jail. Fridays in particular, because no court on the weekends.

Why? Because the sheriff got seventy-five bucks per head, for every prisoner, per day, from the federal government. Peanut butter sandwiches for lunch, a hot dog for dinner. Nice profit. Today that figure is over $250 per day. The feds pay, no, taxpayers pay, to have people accused of simple crimes, incarcerated.

Sometimes a house can be restored. Sometimes it has to collapse, and be rebuilt from foundation up.

[FM505]

The 500 THB fines in Thailand are a joke, but so is this! Sending a kid to the slammer in the largest "democracy" in the world is just mind-boggling.

India... has the largest 'democracy'.

[Scott]

An inflammatory post has been removed.

This topic is about the juvenile justice system. Not adult prisons or prisoners.

[watcharacters]

From article:

"Joseph was repeatedly expelled from his school after violent outbursts, including strangling a teacher with a phone cord. He also attacked female teachers and fought with other students during his two years at Riverside Juvenile Hall."

"During his two years at Riverside Juvenile Hall."

So they had already put him in Juvenile detention for two years and he was a disaster. This is a ruined kid who will never be OK. I predict that when he gets out of the slammer he will do something worse and in the end spend most of his life in prison.

He is not safe to put back into another Juvenile facility. He is already gone, and a danger to everyone.

.

So what would you recommend?

[SjaakNL2013]

Well he will survive and come back to empty his Kalashnikov in the first school he can.

And saving the last bullet for himself, he will say... justice is done

[tetleythedog]

Many years ago, I worked in a juvenile facility. We had a 12 year old who had killed both his mother and father.

This kid is pretty damaged and needs to be kept in a reasonably secure environment. Many of these facilities have a fair amount of latitude in treatment options and housing.

The question always is........................" Nature or nurture???"

[Publicus]

Many years ago, I worked in a juvenile facility. We had a 12 year old who had killed both his mother and father.

This kid is pretty damaged and needs to be kept in a reasonably secure environment. Many of these facilities have a fair amount of latitude in treatment options and housing.

The question always is........................" Nature or nurture???"

I'm glad you asked the question of another.

I would say that, Freud aside and as shocking as it is, patricide is just not a news bulletin.

[Scott]

There is no magic cure, no magic treatment that is guaranteed to work. This kid, like many, many kids, get dealt a pretty rotten hand. He had at least one bad parent and that parent may have been the product of a bad environment as well. There may be some genetic factors causing some of his problems.

We can be as critical of the juvenile justice system as we want, but it can only do so much. It cannot perform miracles and it can't replace a decent family.

[Scott]

Off-topic posts have been deleted. This topic is not about George Zimmerman.

[Baloo22]

I've now read in several different articles that Child Protective Services were called to or visited Joseph Hall's home over twenty times.

The details of why or what caused those visits, and what was Child Protective Services's evaluation of the situation in the Hall home is something that needs some close scrutiny.

[gl555]

Once again, JUVENILE facility. Not adult jail. He MURDERED someone. Sure his father was a real piece of crap but he still...

What do you advocate? A 500 baht fine and 20 Hail Marys? You know any 'civilized' country that doesn't throw an underage MURDERER in a juvenile facility? Sometimes, liberals are just freaking ridiculous.

Fair sentence? The kid was 10 years old when he committed the crime, for Pete's sake.

[Publicus]

Once again, JUVENILE facility. Not adult jail. He MURDERED someone. Sure his father was a real piece of crap but he still...

What do you advocate? A 500 baht fine and 20 Hail Marys? You know any 'civilized' country that doesn't throw an underage MURDERER in a juvenile facility? Sometimes, liberals are just freaking ridiculous.

Fair sentence? The kid was 10 years old when he committed the crime, for Pete's sake.

If it's "liberal" to try intervention, explore and investigate, identify problems as best as possible, try to find solutions and preventative measures, then I'll wear that hat.

However it's not the same hat some would try to place on my head.

[NeverSure]

Once again, JUVENILE facility. Not adult jail. He MURDERED someone. Sure his father was a real piece of crap but he still...

What do you advocate? A 500 baht fine and 20 Hail Marys? You know any 'civilized' country that doesn't throw an underage MURDERER in a juvenile facility? Sometimes, liberals are just freaking ridiculous.

Fair sentence? The kid was 10 years old when he committed the crime, for Pete's sake.

If it's "liberal" to try intervention, explore and investigate, identify problems as best as possible, try to find solutions and preventative measures, then I'll wear that hat.

However it's not the same hat some would try to place on my head.

His world view was set in stone by the time he was about 5. If he saw people as abusive and unloving during those formative years, he still sees them that way and he always will. The opposite would be true if he experienced people as being loving and nurturing.

It is too late to change him. It was at 10 years old. No amount of professional help will change him.

The authorities now have a responsibility to protect society from him, as sad as that is. It is a shame and it hurts me to think a child would be treated like that. But there's no turning back the clock. If there was truly a large number of "visits" by child authorities when he was really little, they could have/should have removed him from the home to foster care.

[Ulic]

Talk about a no win situation. Ten years old at the time, in juvi the past two years. Getting worse with no chance

of progress in a underfunded-overcrowded, violent environment. I feel sorry for everyone. The boy, the prosecutor who has to push for such a sentence as it seeks to protect society, the defence who is correct that a 10 year old boy abused all his life has to be held to this standard. No win.

[gl555]

It would be nice if we could prevent crimes like these. Since in the real world, we can't, what do you suggest we do to people who shoot other people while they're sleeping? As bad as this kid's father was, the kid did MURDER him while he was in bed. We're supposed to feel offended that he's being locked up in a juvenile center just because he's 13? He killed someone in cold blood.

Once again, JUVENILE facility. Not adult jail. He MURDERED someone. Sure his father was a real piece of crap but he still...

What do you advocate? A 500 baht fine and 20 Hail Marys? You know any 'civilized' country that doesn't throw an underage MURDERER in a juvenile facility? Sometimes, liberals are just freaking ridiculous.

Fair sentence? The kid was 10 years old when he committed the crime, for Pete's sake.

If it's "liberal" to try intervention, explore and investigate, identify problems as best as possible, try to find solutions and preventative measures, then I'll wear that hat.

However it's not the same hat some would try to place on my head.

[yingyo]

The kid needs 7 years of hugs.

And not the prison kind.

[Publicus]

Once again, JUVENILE facility. Not adult jail. He MURDERED someone. Sure his father was a real piece of crap but he still...

What do you advocate? A 500 baht fine and 20 Hail Marys? You know any 'civilized' country that doesn't throw an underage MURDERER in a juvenile facility? Sometimes, liberals are just freaking ridiculous.

Fair sentence? The kid was 10 years old when he committed the crime, for Pete's sake.

If it's "liberal" to try intervention, explore and investigate, identify problems as best as possible, try to find solutions and preventative measures, then I'll wear that hat.

However it's not the same hat some would try to place on my head.

His world view was set in stone by the time he was about 5. If he saw people as abusive and unloving during those formative years, he still sees them that way and he always will. The opposite would be true if he experienced people as being loving and nurturing.

It is too late to change him. It was at 10 years old. No amount of professional help will change him.

The authorities now have a responsibility to protect society from him, as sad as that is. It is a shame and it hurts me to think a child would be treated like that. But there's no turning back the clock. If there was truly a large number of "visits" by child authorities when he was really little, they could have/should have removed him from the home to foster care.

The point is well known and understood that personality formation/creation occurs before we begin to have consciousness of it, and that a person 5 years old, 10 years old has no, little or limited awareness or control of his/her environment and the factors that create and shape it.

Modern psychotherapy is predicated however on the fact that once we are adults with consciousness and maturity we can better gain control over our environment and of our own person, personality, among other aspects of our being. Movies have reinforced this reality in glorified and exaggerated ways, romanticizing the real life teacher, coach, counselor among others who made a difference in leading or assisting real life people in a hole to dig their way out of it.

This kid is hard core hard but he's only 13 presently, with what I would say is the added benefit of having expelled his worst demon. I'd also want to know whether the kid was sobered by the killing or rather liked it - I haven't any information about that aspect of it.

Maybe he's one of the hard core hard who absolutely need to be locked away forever, but maybe he's not. From where I sit anyway, I wouldn't necessarily draw permanent conclusions about a kid who's only 13 years old three years after his awful deed, for which he's begun to pay.

[NeverSure]

The kid needs 7 years of hugs.

And not the prison kind.

Who would give him that? You can't put him out in foster care in general society because you don't know what he might do. He's not going to get "family" nurturing in a detention center despite the best efforts of counselors.

I have to look at his whole history - of being in regular school and trying to strangle a teacher with a phone cord. Many police calls to his home, triggered by him or his parents? What a mess.

Even at 10 he had a history of violence and problems. That was before the murder.

Society has to protect itself, as sad as it is. I know it's a terrible and heartbreaking situation, but they have to lock this kid up to protect society.

[F430murci]

The kid needs 7 years of hugs.

And not the prison kind.

Hug him and he will stab you in the neck with a pencil.

[LawrenceN]

The 500 THB fines in Thailand are a joke, but so is this! Sending a kid to the slammer in the largest "democracy" in the world is just mind-boggling.

For the record, India is the largest democracy in the world (with or without quote marks).

[slipperylobster]

So the boy gets 7 years for killing a child abuseing neo-nazi, the justice system is insane. The boy should be a neighborhood hero instead. He's going to be one really PO person when he gets out of the slammer, and may at 1st, head to the nearest neo-nazi club house and toss a bomb inside.

So kids, in your opinion, have the right to dole out Executions on family members.....and get badges for their effort? Makes me wonder why we ever even attempted to utilize courts, and Police. If I get you right, the kids know better that the rest of us. Is this not what Pol Pot did?

[hanno]

So the boy gets 7 years for killing a child abuseing neo-nazi, the justice system is insane. The boy should be a neighborhood hero instead. He's going to be one really PO person when he gets out of the slammer, and may at 1st, head to the nearest neo-nazi club house and toss a bomb inside.

So kids, in your opinion, have the right to dole out Executions on family members.....and get badges for their effort? Makes me wonder why we ever even attempted to utilize courts, and Police. If I get you right, the kids know better that the rest of us. Is this not what Pol Pot did?

In most civilized countries, children are considered not being responsible for what they do; that is why they can't drive, vote, or own guns (except in democracies where kids get sent to jail or people with an IQ of 50 are executed).

[Ulysses G.]

So the boy gets 7 years for killing a child abuseing neo-nazi, the justice system is insane. The boy should be a neighborhood hero instead. He's going to be one really PO person when he gets out of the slammer, and may at 1st, head to the nearest neo-nazi club house and toss a bomb inside.

So kids, in your opinion, have the right to dole out Executions on family members.....and get badges for their effort?

This kid is damaged goods - whether it is his fault, or not - but he does deserve some mercy considering his "victim". Seven years is pretty much right.

Edited November 2, 2013 by Ulysses G.

[charmonman]

There kid also committed his crime against what appears to be a rather abusive and potentially dangerous father.

Perhaps if they'd throw the Nazi father in prison early on, or restricted access to his wife and son, things would've turned out better for his son.

[Jingthing]

I'm sympathetic to the bleeding hearts. Clearly the boy is also a victim of his parental fate. I think if I was on the jury that I might have favored a more liberal sentence but I can't imagine that he deserves a longer one, given the abuse.

[Scott]

Juveniles usually do not have jury trials. There case is usually heard before a juvenile court judge. There are also specific rules about sentencing, and how long he can be held under direct court jurisdiction/supervision. This is from the OP:

Joseph was convicted of second-degree murder. On Thursday, the judge ruled that the maximum the boy can serve would be until he is 23.

If he is placed in the custody of the State Youth Authority, they can have supervision of him until he is 23. It is not exactly a prison sentence. The SYA has some latitude in where he is placed.

[Jingthing]

Thanks for the correction. You're right of course. Change to if I was the JUDGE.

[NeverSure]

I'm sympathetic to the bleeding hearts. Clearly the boy is also a victim of his parental fate. I think if I was on the jury that I might have favored a more liberal sentence but I can't imagine that he deserves a longer one, given the abuse.

They will hold him for up to seven years in a juvenile facility. If they transfer him to prison when he reaches the age of majority, they won't put him in with the general population.

There is a balance between compassion for a young man, and protecting the public. Don't forget he tried to strangle a teacher with a telephone cord before this happened when he was in a regular school. The boy is troubled and dangerous.

I don't know a good answer. I really don't. All of the good answers seem to come too late. I hope he can turn his life around.

Something like this makes me feel sick.