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Nationalist group takes stand against ICJ and its ruling on Preah Vihear


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Posted

Nationalist group takes stand against ICJ and its ruling on Preah Vihear
The Nation

30218744-01_big.JPG?1383607022059

BANGKOK: -- Nationalist groups said yesterday they will take a stand against the International Court of Justice (ICJ) verdict on Preah Vihear Temple, as they do not trust the Pheu Thai government - which they say is ready to cede territory to Cambodia.

"Thai people who know the reality would not allow the government to comply with the ICJ judgement. What the government has done could be deemed as 'selling the nation' to foreigners," Chaiwat Sinsuwong, leader of Thai Patriotic Network, said.

The group lodged a petition with the government and the United Nations to announce that Thailand was rejecting any possible verdict from the ICJ as it deemed the court did not have jurisdiction over the temple. The same plea was sent to the UN secretary-general, the UN Security Council and ICJ judges, he said.

"We are taking action both domestically and internationally," he said. "Just like the Free Thai Movement, which took dual action against the government during World War II. We will use all means to force the government to withdraw from the ICJ."

The court is expected to deliver the verdict next Monday.



Thailand and Cambodia have been at loggerheads over the temple for more than half a century now.

"This verdict will not be good for people of both countries as it could spark fur?ther conflicts and even war," he said.

Chaiwat's group was part of the movement which first ignited conflict between the two countries when they pressured governments in the Thaksin Shinawatra camp to oppose Cambodia's move to have the temple listed as a World Heritage Site in 2008.

nationlogo.jpg
-- The Nation 2013-11-05

Posted

And as they continue the very, very slow process of maturation, Nationalists will continue chanting:

"Thailand, Thailand über alles!!!"

Farang raus!! "

Oh dear me! Can you imagine these nut-cases wielding the power of government?

But what about the nut cases that are already running the Government,

regards Worgeordie

  • Like 1
Posted

Gee ! I wouldn't want to be a PT MP for quides at the moment. They are copping it from sides of the country. And rightly so. Something just has to give. And soon.

Posted

Would not it be funny if court ruling was in favor of Thailand .

I wonder who would be biting their elbows for already sending the letter of NOT recognizing the ruling

  • Like 1
Posted

Would not it be funny if court ruling was in favor of Thailand .

I wonder who would be biting their elbows for already sending the letter of NOT recognizing the ruling

Maybe they already know the result.

Posted

And as they continue the very, very slow process of maturation, Nationalists will continue chanting:

"Thailand, Thailand über alles!!!"

Farang raus!! "

Oh dear me! Can you imagine these nut-cases wielding the power of government?

No there are not.....and they would happily agree to the former agreement that Cambodia broke. That called it "overlapping area" and governed it together by a joint board.

And I can't find a bit racism against Farangs there.

Posted

Would not it be funny if court ruling was in favor of Thailand .

I wonder who would be biting their elbows for already sending the letter of NOT recognizing the ruling

No it can't, because it must be based on an older ruling which Thailand could not appeal at that time. So it is considered as accepted.

Posted

This temple thing is doing a great job for those in power in both countries.

It is taking attention away from the real prize, the marine boundary where there is all that lovely oil and gas.

I've heard that before. Can you explain it please?

Posted

The guy said "just like WW II. That was the war that the Thais declared war on the US and the UK in January 1942 and went on the side with their colleagues from Japan.

  • Like 1
Posted

Their views are already well known (and set in stone) no ruling has been made from the ICJ yet, so why start making noises now about not accepting the decision?

1. Don't have a clue and love a bit of chest beating.

2. Do have a clue about the real issue (it isn't the bit of scrub-land) and fear the worst.

3. I got me picture in the paper Mum.

  • Like 1
Posted

And as they continue the very, very slow process of maturation, Nationalists will continue chanting:

"Thailand, Thailand über alles!!!"

Farang raus!! "

Oh dear me! Can you imagine these nut-cases wielding the power of government?

Well said pisico. The last time these TPN/Yellow Shirt/ Nationalist nutters came to Si Sa Ket to get the local Thais to confront the evil Khmen over the border they were duffed up by the local Thais and told to <deleted> off back to BKK. Thais here have been trading across the border since the Khmer Rouge were finally flushed out. Flag waving nationalists play no positive role in any democracy. Off they went back to BKK licking their wounds muttering how these illiterate Issan farmers don't understand. Ha ha ha.

Before as well. The Thai government supported the Khmer rouge together with the USA.

Posted

Protesters rally ahead of World Court ruling
By English News

13836270058627.jpg

SI SA KET, NOV 5 - Protesters began gathering in this Thai-Cambodian border province ahead of the November 11 International Court of Justice (ICJ) ruling on the two countries' territorial dispute.

Cambodia earlier sought the court's interpretation of its 1962 ruling awarding the Preah Vihear Temple to Cambodia as to whether the area around the temple included the disputed 4.6 square kilometres.

Thailand contended that the 1962 verdict only covered the Hindu temple itself, and not the adjacent area.

Kittisak Ponpai, leader of so-called "Kamlang Pandin Group", led the group to set up tents and a makeshift stage, preparing to rally at the City Pillar compound in Kantaralak district.

He read a statement announcing the group's stance on the case, saying only the map based on the watershed line of the Dangrek Mountain range must be adhered to.

The group will hold a public forum in the evening to present opinions from all parties.

Mr Kittsak said the group will gather again on Saturday.

At the same time, another "Thammayatra Group" rallied at Khao Phra Viharn-Kantaralak Road, some 200 metres away from the "Kamlang Pandin Group".

Thailand's Khao Phra Viharn National Park earlier announced that it would close for the time being to prevent groups from holding rallies related to court verdict.(MCOT online news)

tnalogo.jpg
-- TNA 2013-11-05

  • Like 1
Posted

This temple thing is doing a great job for those in power in both countries.

It is taking attention away from the real prize, the marine boundary where there is all that lovely oil and gas.

I've heard that before. Can you explain it please?

Disputed marine boundary between Thailand and Cambodia and many think there are huge oil and gas resources. There are a couple of such fields in Asia. Most of these disputes are even more difficult with China involved.

USA recently tried to "check the weather" there with her spy airplanes.

Posted

Robby nz, on 05 Nov 2013 - 08:53, said:snapback.png

This temple thing is doing a great job for those in power in both countries.

It is taking attention away from the real prize, the marine boundary where there is all that lovely oil and gas.

I've heard that before. Can you explain it please?

Certainly Tom.

The marine boundaries have not as yet been finalized.

The area on and around these boundaries has been shown to contain considerable quantities of oil and gas worth a lot of money to the country which has control of the area and to anyone who can be in on the ground floor when it comes to concessions for exploration and drilling.

Thaksin was and possibly still is, advising Hun Sen (he said he had resigned from the job but he has lied before and since).

It is known that Thaksin has been in contact with and had several meetings with Hun Sen.

It would seem very unlikely that Thaksin who claims to be an astute businessman would not have considered the possibilities of joining with Hun Sen in some sort of venture to exploit these oil reserves.

Thaksin has shown many times in the past that he is willing to put his interests before those of Thailand and Hun Sen would be an able accomplice.

To have the temple dispute up front while the more important marine boundaries are arranged and ways to exploit them for personal gain are arranged in the background would be of benefit to those doing the exploitation.

Having a group of silly buggers like we see in the OP helps keep the temple in the headlines.

Hope that is a good enough explaination.

Of course it is only my take on the situation and I am quite willing to listen to any other logical explaination.

Posted

The guy said "just like WW II. That was the war that the Thais declared war on the US and the UK in January 1942 and went on the side with their colleagues from Japan.

Ssssh, Thais are not taught this, as part of Thai history, in school.

  • Like 1
Posted

And as they continue the very, very slow process of maturation, Nationalists will continue chanting:

"Thailand, Thailand über alles!!!"

Farang raus!! "

Oh dear me! Can you imagine these nut-cases wielding the power of government?

Well said pisico. The last time these TPN/Yellow Shirt/ Nationalist nutters came to Si Sa Ket to get the local Thais to confront the evil Khmen over the border they were duffed up by the local Thais and told to <deleted> off back to BKK. Thais here have been trading across the border since the Khmer Rouge were finally flushed out. Flag waving nationalists play no positive role in any democracy. Off they went back to BKK licking their wounds muttering how these illiterate Issan farmers don't understand. Ha ha ha.

Before as well. The Thai government supported the Khmer rouge together with the USA.

To be fair to both countries you mention, the UN supported the Khmer Rouge after Vietnam kicked those psychos out of power. Throughout the period of occupation the Khmer Rouge held the UN seat for Cambodia.

Posted

SIMPLE, it is a Khmer temple, dedicated to the (Hindu) Shiva, after then converted to Buddhist use.

Thailand, GET OVER IT...

But according to the Thai treaty with France, it's on Thai soil.

Posted

And as they continue the very, very slow process of maturation, Nationalists will continue chanting:

"Thailand, Thailand über alles!!!"

Farang raus!! "

Oh dear me! Can you imagine these nut-cases wielding the power of government?

Well said pisico. The last time these TPN/Yellow Shirt/ Nationalist nutters came to Si Sa Ket to get the local Thais to confront the evil Khmen over the border they were duffed up by the local Thais and told to <deleted> off back to BKK. Thais here have been trading across the border since the Khmer Rouge were finally flushed out. Flag waving nationalists play no positive role in any democracy. Off they went back to BKK licking their wounds muttering how these illiterate Issan farmers don't understand. Ha ha ha.

Before as well. The Thai government supported the Khmer rouge together with the USA.

That's true. And that was Mr. Human Rights himself, Jimmy Carter, and his UN representative, Andrew Young, who supported the Khmer Rouge.

Posted

The guy said "just like WW II. That was the war that the Thais declared war on the US and the UK in January 1942 and went on the side with their colleagues from Japan.

Ssssh, Thais are not taught this, as part of Thai history, in school.

My wife learned in school that Thailand fought the Japanese so successful, that Japan was so weakend that China could win against them.

(so Thailand won against Japan, China had it easy to finish them off, and no word about USA, Australia, etc etc)...

very strange....

  • Like 2
Posted

And as they continue the very, very slow process of maturation, Nationalists will continue chanting:

"Thailand, Thailand über alles!!!"

Farang raus!! "

Oh dear me! Can you imagine these nut-cases wielding the power of government?

Well said pisico. The last time these TPN/Yellow Shirt/ Nationalist nutters came to Si Sa Ket to get the local Thais to confront the evil Khmen over the border they were duffed up by the local Thais and told to <deleted> off back to BKK. Thais here have been trading across the border since the Khmer Rouge were finally flushed out. Flag waving nationalists play no positive role in any democracy. Off they went back to BKK licking their wounds muttering how these illiterate Issan farmers don't understand. Ha ha ha.

Before as well. The Thai government supported the Khmer rouge together with the USA.

That's true. And that was Mr. Human Rights himself, Jimmy Carter, and his UN representative, Andrew Young, who supported the Khmer Rouge.

Really I didn't know that....I'll have to read about that.

Jimmy Carter....shame on him.......

Posted

The guy said "just like WW II. That was the war that the Thais declared war on the US and the UK in January 1942 and went on the side with their colleagues from Japan.

Ssssh, Thais are not taught this, as part of Thai history, in school.

My wife learned in school that Thailand fought the Japanese so successful, that Japan was so weakend that China could win against them.

(so Thailand won against Japan, China had it easy to finish them off, and no word about USA, Australia, etc etc)...

very strange....

Ah, history is an amazing thing.

Posted

This temple thing is doing a great job for those in power in both countries.

It is taking attention away from the real prize, the marine boundary where there is all that lovely oil and gas.

I've heard that before. Can you explain it please?

Don't expect him to explain it. He heard it somewhere that Thaksin and Hun Sen have sewn the area up for oil and gas deals despite the fact that Total and Chevron already have exploration rights to a block in the disputed area. Also the two governments are talking about joint development anyway. This Reuters report will give you a bit of background without the BS

Thai Energy Minister Pichai Naripthaphan said Thailand would seek parliamentary approval to restore a decade-old Memorandum of Understanding between the two countries that was scrapped by the previous government when relations deteriorated.

Negotiations on joint development and revenue-sharing would soon follow, he added.

"There are processes that need to be done on both sides but the intention was very good, the relationship was very good and we're certain in the future there'll be no more conflict," Pichai told reporters after a meeting with Cambodian Deputy Prime Minister Sok An, also head of the National Petroleum Authority.

"We want to see this proceed with success because it's for energy security for both countries ... for another 40 or 50 years," he said. The two countries had come close to an agreement but that was derailed when former Thai premier Thaksin Shinawatra was overthrown by the military in 2006. However, since his sister, Yingluck Shinawatra, became prime minister in August, diplomatic ties have warmed significantly. http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/12/29/thailand-cambodia-energy-idUSL3E7NT4TZ20111229
Posted

And as they continue the very, very slow process of maturation, Nationalists will continue chanting:

"Thailand, Thailand über alles!!!"

Farang raus!! "

Oh dear me! Can you imagine these nut-cases wielding the power of government?

Well said pisico. The last time these TPN/Yellow Shirt/ Nationalist nutters came to Si Sa Ket to get the local Thais to confront the evil Khmen over the border they were duffed up by the local Thais and told to <deleted> off back to BKK. Thais here have been trading across the border since the Khmer Rouge were finally flushed out. Flag waving nationalists play no positive role in any democracy. Off they went back to BKK licking their wounds muttering how these illiterate Issan farmers don't understand. Ha ha ha.

Before as well. The Thai government supported the Khmer rouge together with the USA.

To be fair to both countries you mention, the UN supported the Khmer Rouge after Vietnam kicked those psychos out of power. Throughout the period of occupation the Khmer Rouge held the UN seat for Cambodia.

Au contraire, the first sentence is incorrect to a large extent. The 2nd is not.

When one mentions the UN you have to be precise about what aspect of the UN you are referring to. The UN is after all a multi-faceted body made of member states.

Firstly, remember that Vietnam invaded due to the fact that the KR was sending armed incursions into the Mekong Delta and killing villagers as the KR wanted to reclaim the two Delta provinces that had historically been part of the Khmer kingdom. Vietnam tolerated this for some time until they invaded in Jan 1979.

State representation at the UNGA

Any disputes regarding the representation of states is determined by the UN Credentials Committee, a 9 person technical body which receives submissions from member states of the UN General Assembly (UNGA). The membership of the Credentials Committee back then had to be confirmed by the UNGA so it often reflected the politics of the time.

It has been previously termed as a rubber stamp body which avoids politics. However, obviously such a process is highly politicized. Once the Committee makes a recommendation it must then be voted on at the UNGA. So the Committee can recommend something but if it does not get passed at the UNGA, ie. member states then it will not be implemented.

The Cold War real politics framework

At the time cold war politics were at play, Vietnam backed by the Soviets, the KR backed by China and the US (in fact after the Vietnam invasion Thailand, the US, the UK and others were arming the KR from Thailand). The US had obviously chosen the KR to back post the Vietnam defeat as the 'lessor of two evils' or the old 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend' doctrine. ( At the time Washington had ignored many reports about the genocide most of the initial ones being though of as unbelievable by the US even though a House delegation visited Aran as early as August 1975 and credible, detailed reports were being made by the State Dept by early 1976).

So in Sept of 1979 when the issue of representation for Democratic Kampuchea (as Cambodia was then known) came up before the UN Credentials Committee the US applied intense pressure to what where rubber stamp technocrats. The US also was concerned that any change by the Committee could have repercussions for Israel's credentials. (There were some other international law principals involved regarindg the doctrine of non interference in state sovereignty and genocide which I won't detail here)

The other western allies submitted similar submission and obviously the communist bloc went for Vietnamese backed govt recognition.

It really was the height of hypocrisy of real-politics in the cold war era on the part of the west.

The recommendation to recognise the KR and UNGA vote

The Credentials Committee following essentially cold war voting blocks & subsequently voted 6-3 in favour of the KR as representatives. The US lawyer making submissions to the committee subsequently boasted that he was told by the State Department to 'engineer the result, so I engineered the result'. The recommendation was subsequently approved by the UNGA by a 2-1 margin and the KR thereafter were the official reps for the member state at the UN.

The KR held the UN representation until 1991 (from memory, need to check that) before the UNTAC peacekeeping mission was established in 1992 and subsequent elections in 1993. The US subsequently provided funds and covert operations support to the KR for the much of the 80s Millions of dollars. $5m a year then over $10m a year by the mid $80s. In the 80s, senior KR Generals were often sighted freely moving in Ubon enjoying a night out at late night entertainment venues full of young women.

The Genocide convention and the context of the late 70s

Ironically, the US was not a party to the post WWII Genocide Convention at the time in 1979 even though an infamous US Senator (Proxmire) had introduced a bill into the Senate some 1800 times by then in order to get the US Senate to Ratify the Genocide Convention. It would eventually be ratified in late 1988 by Pres Regan having taken 40 years for the US to do so! (have a read about this history as it is very interesting)

Any member state which was a party to the Genocide Convention (ironically Cambodia ratified it in 1951) could have taken the case of the KR Genocide to the ICJ for adjudication The US had not ratified the Convention but any other western allies could have initiated such a case.

At the very least any state could have asked the then UN Human Rights Commission to investigate the genocide once initial reports came out in the 2nd half of 1975 about what the KR was doing. The later action was not done until 1978 (a UK request) by which time the KR had been in power for 3 years and even then it was blocked by member states so that little happened before the Vietnamese invasion in early1979.

Posted

And as they continue the very, very slow process of maturation, Nationalists will continue chanting:

"Thailand, Thailand über alles!!!"

Farang raus!! "

Oh dear me! Can you imagine these nut-cases wielding the power of government?

Well said pisico. The last time these TPN/Yellow Shirt/ Nationalist nutters came to Si Sa Ket to get the local Thais to confront the evil Khmen over the border they were duffed up by the local Thais and told to <deleted> off back to BKK. Thais here have been trading across the border since the Khmer Rouge were finally flushed out. Flag waving nationalists play no positive role in any democracy. Off they went back to BKK licking their wounds muttering how these illiterate Issan farmers don't understand. Ha ha ha.

Before as well. The Thai government supported the Khmer rouge together with the USA.

To be fair to both countries you mention, the UN supported the Khmer Rouge after Vietnam kicked those psychos out of power. Throughout the period of occupation the Khmer Rouge held the UN seat for Cambodia.

Au contraire, the first sentence is incorrect to a large extent. The 2nd is not.

When one mentions the UN you have to be precise about what aspect of the UN you are referring to. The UN is after all a multi-faceted body made of member states.

Firstly, remember that Vietnam invaded due to the fact that the KR was sending armed incursions into the Mekong Delta and killing villagers as the KR wanted to reclaim the two Delta provinces that had historically been part of the Khmer kingdom. Vietnam tolerated this for some time until they invaded in Jan 1979.

State representation at the UNGA

Any disputes regarding the representation of states is determined by the UN Credentials Committee, a 9 person technical body which receives submissions from member states of the UN General Assembly (UNGA). The membership of the Credentials Committee back then had to be confirmed by the UNGA so it often reflected the politics of the time.

It has been previously termed as a rubber stamp body which avoids politics. However, obviously such a process is highly politicized. Once the Committee makes a recommendation it must then be voted on at the UNGA. So the Committee can recommend something but if it does not get passed at the UNGA, ie. member states then it will not be implemented.

The Cold War real politics framework

At the time cold war politics were at play, Vietnam backed by the Soviets, the KR backed by China and the US (in fact after the Vietnam invasion Thailand, the US, the UK and others were arming the KR from Thailand). The US had obviously chosen the KR to back post the Vietnam defeat as the 'lessor of two evils' or the old 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend' doctrine. ( At the time Washington had ignored many reports about the genocide most of the initial ones being though of as unbelievable by the US even though a House delegation visited Aran as early as August 1975 and credible, detailed reports were being made by the State Dept by early 1976).

So in Sept of 1979 when the issue of representation for Democratic Kampuchea (as Cambodia was then known) came up before the UN Credentials Committee the US applied intense pressure to what where rubber stamp technocrats. The US also was concerned that any change by the Committee could have repercussions for Israel's credentials. (There were some other international law principals involved regarindg the doctrine of non interference in state sovereignty and genocide which I won't detail here)

The other western allies submitted similar submission and obviously the communist bloc went for Vietnamese backed govt recognition.

It really was the height of hypocrisy of real-politics in the cold war era on the part of the west.

The recommendation to recognise the KR and UNGA vote

The Credentials Committee following essentially cold war voting blocks & subsequently voted 6-3 in favour of the KR as representatives. The US lawyer making submissions to the committee subsequently boasted that he was told by the State Department to 'engineer the result, so I engineered the result'. The recommendation was subsequently approved by the UNGA by a 2-1 margin and the KR thereafter were the official reps for the member state at the UN.

The KR held the UN representation until 1991 (from memory, need to check that) before the UNTAC peacekeeping mission was established in 1992 and subsequent elections in 1993. The US subsequently provided funds and covert operations support to the KR for the much of the 80s Millions of dollars. $5m a year then over $10m a year by the mid $80s. In the 80s, senior KR Generals were often sighted freely moving in Ubon enjoying a night out at late night entertainment venues full of young women.

The Genocide convention and the context of the late 70s

Ironically, the US was not a party to the post WWII Genocide Convention at the time in 1979 even though an infamous US Senator (Proxmire) had introduced a bill into the Senate some 1800 times by then in order to get the US Senate to Ratify the Genocide Convention. It would eventually be ratified in late 1988 by Pres Regan having taken 40 years for the US to do so! (have a read about this history as it is very interesting)

Any member state which was a party to the Genocide Convention (ironically Cambodia ratified it in 1951) could have taken the case of the KR Genocide to the ICJ for adjudication The US had not ratified the Convention but any other western allies could have initiated such a case.

At the very least any state could have asked the then UN Human Rights Commission to investigate the genocide once initial reports came out in the 2nd half of 1975 about what the KR was doing. The later action was not done until 1978 (a UK request) by which time the KR had been in power for 3 years and even then it was blocked by member states so that little happened before the Vietnamese invasion in early1979.

Very little I disagree with your post except on my interpretation of the UN's culpability in funding and supporting the Khmer Rouge. I largely am in favour of the UN and the work it does throughout the world, both in peacekeeping missions and disaster relief. However with Cambodia it got it wrong and despite growing evidence of the crimes of the Khmer Rouge it ignored what they had done. They allowed it to keep its seat at the UN and did nothing to stop its funding. Yes there was pressure from the USA and other states, that does not free the UN from guilt. It knew what the KR had done yet still backed them.

Posted

This temple thing is doing a great job for those in power in both countries.

It is taking attention away from the real prize, the marine boundary where there is all that lovely oil and gas.

I've heard that before. Can you explain it please?

Don't expect him to explain it. He heard it somewhere that Thaksin and Hun Sen have sewn the area up for oil and gas deals despite the fact that Total and Chevron already have exploration rights to a block in the disputed area. Also the two governments are talking about joint development anyway. This Reuters report will give you a bit of background without the BS

Thai Energy Minister Pichai Naripthaphan said Thailand would seek parliamentary approval to restore a decade-old Memorandum of Understanding between the two countries that was scrapped by the previous government when relations deteriorated.

Negotiations on joint development and revenue-sharing would soon follow, he added.

"There are processes that need to be done on both sides but the intention was very good, the relationship was very good and we're certain in the future there'll be no more conflict," Pichai told reporters after a meeting with Cambodian Deputy Prime Minister Sok An, also head of the National Petroleum Authority.

"We want to see this proceed with success because it's for energy security for both countries ... for another 40 or 50 years," he said. The two countries had come close to an agreement but that was derailed when former Thai premier Thaksin Shinawatra was overthrown by the military in 2006. However, since his sister, Yingluck Shinawatra, became prime minister in August, diplomatic ties have warmed significantly. http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/12/29/thailand-cambodia-energy-idUSL3E7NT4TZ20111229

Total and Chevron... the Burmese junta's fairy godmothers!

If those two companies are involved then the Thai and Cambodian people will see precious little benefit from it.

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