Citibank Building Elevator Plunges - Three Killed

[gharknes]

I thought secondary emerg braking systems were passive and speed sensitive,

wouldn't think it could be disarmed,

maybe they where testing it after repair

[kippers]

If this had happened with passengers, perhaps a couple of expats included, it would be truly horrible, then some sort of safety regulations may be put in place.

What frightens me is how many other lifts are in a situation where something like this could occur...............you would have thought that the Citibank lifts would have been in reasonably good condition, money wouldn't seem to be problem.

[Thaipwriter]

When discussing with my students some of the differences between the Thai culture, and the American culture, the topic was manners. Thai people do not seem to say please, they certainly do not say thank you. A man does not hold a door for a woman, nor let her on the elevator first or anything remotely like it. Rarely am i given a seat on the bus or train by a Thai man, and often a young man will take a seat almost right out from under me. My tone must have seemed bitter, for on the BTS ride home, I sat with one of my students where she asked me, or rather stated it seemed I didn't like Thai people. I do like Thai people. Some of them are just wonderful, friendly, helpful, warm, inclusive with their activities and show that they want to involve me, and seem genuinely excited when I show up somewhere a foreigner is just not expected to show up. This made me rethink about my projected demeanor and attitude about the Thai people and remember why I am here, to do something for the Thai people I really like. I would like people around the world to think of the Thai people as polite and wonderful people. I have to remember they are who they are and we can only lead by example. What i see here seems to be people that don't really think much of the Thai, which leads me to wonder why they are here. Is living in Thailand really all about warm weather, cheap services and easy girlfriends? I see bandwagon mentallity of Thai people bashing and wonder what good it does. There is truth behind everything we say. There is no such thing as just kidding. I think the Thai people have to work with whatever they have, which in the past, and to a real extent still, isn't much. I give them credit for being a happy bunch of people considering the available resources offered to them. Remember, the minimum wage is 184 baht a day, having some education would certainly pay more, but they work with what they have, I give them credit for that. Just a thought.

Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeze tell me your not an English teacher!

[Nawtilus]

A 30 year vegi...bout time you got some meat into you, then you would not have to complain about standing.

[buzz]

who said I didn't have compassion ? especially for the families and children ... you've twisted things around...

Not surprised. People do dangerous work with little or no protection every day in Thailand.

Great, criticizing dead mechanics, that shows a lot of compassion and sympathy. Whatever the reason, do you think it is any easier for the families and children.

[OneeyedJohn]

Pray tell me dear lady wot are your students learning fom you???????????????

[deminister]

Bad Credit?

[cookiesunshinex]

When discussing with my students some of the differences between the Thai culture, and the American culture, the topic was manners. Thai people do not seem to say please, they certainly do not say thank you. A man does not hold a door for a woman, nor let her on the elevator first or anything remotely like it. Rarely am i given a seat on the bus or train by a Thai man, and often a young man will take a seat almost right out from under me. My tone must have seemed bitter, for on the BTS ride home, I sat with one of my students where she asked me, or rather stated it seemed I didn't like Thai people. I do like Thai people. Some of them are just wonderful, friendly, helpful, warm, inclusive with their activities and show that they want to involve me, and seem genuinely excited when I show up somewhere a foreigner is just not expected to show up. This made me rethink about my projected demeanor and attitude about the Thai people and remember why I am here, to do something for the Thai people I really like. I would like people around the world to think of the Thai people as polite and wonderful people. I have to remember they are who they are and we can only lead by example. What i see here seems to be people that don't really think much of the Thai, which leads me to wonder why they are here. Is living in Thailand really all about warm weather, cheap services and easy girlfriends? I see bandwagon mentallity of Thai people bashing and wonder what good it does. There is truth behind everything we say. There is no such thing as just kidding. I think the Thai people have to work with whatever they have, which in the past, and to a real extent still, isn't much. I give them credit for being a happy bunch of people considering the available resources offered to them. Remember, the minimum wage is 184 baht a day, having some education would certainly pay more, but they work with what they have, I give them credit for that. Just a thought.

I now live in Hong Kong after previously living in Thailand. Getting into and out of an elevator is an everyday necessity of life. LITERALLY. The amount of high-rise buildings here is astonishing. In my apartment building, they are testing the elevator about every 2 weeks.

So this post made me perk up and read. I don't normally see a post that is worth responding to, but I have to both disagree with you gr8fldanielle, and agree with you.

There is no way that the youth of Thailand are less polite than the youth of America, especially if you are going to generalize. The importance of politeness and respect in Thai culture is paramount.

Secondly, you are right, this board is full of a bunch of discontented moaners, who also "seem like they don't like Thai people." Most of which are "privileged in Thai terms.

But it's good for business. George, the owner of the site must be making a mint. You've got a lot of cynical people with nothing better to do in their surplus of spare time, except sit back and be arm chair critics. In turn, creating an enourmous amount of site traffic, in turn generating lots of advertising revenue.

How is this post any more relevant than any other or how effective is it in improving mankind. It's probably isn't.

But I'd rather live in Thailand, than Hong Kong. Safe elevators or not.

Edited May 6, 2006 by cookiesunshinex

[Thaipwriter]

Tragic stuff like this happens everywhere and is not exclusive to Thailand.

Safety procedures that westerners are accustomed to are all too lacking here.

I look forward to the day when there are as many farang safety officers employed here as there are English teachers.

RIP those three.

[Scott]

My condolences to the families and those close to the victims.

This sort of thing is not too surprising in spite of its sadness. There are several factors that need to be addressed.

First, training, not only for the job being done, but Safety training. My father used to work for an electrical company. They were required to attend a safety meeting once a month--about 1/2 a day. They saw films, were taught relevant laws and explanations of why things needed to be done they way they suggested. They also were trained to do their job correctly.

Secondly, supervision of workers by qualified personnel. There is virtually always an overabundance of workers doing any particular task, but someone needs to be in charge, and that person needs to be qualified and experienced. That person also needs extra understanding of safety regulations and needs to enforce them.

Finally, untained, unqualified, "hangers-on" need to be gotten off the job site or out of the way. These people often get in the way of things and cause problems. Too many cooks spoil the broth.

[ya5702]

When discussing with my students some of the differences between the Thai culture, and the American culture, the topic was manners. Thai people do not seem to say please, they certainly do not say thank you. A man does not hold a door for a woman, nor let her on the elevator first or anything remotely like it. Rarely am i given a seat on the bus or train by a Thai man, and often a young man will take a seat almost right out from under me. My tone must have seemed bitter, for on the BTS ride home, I sat with one of my students where she asked me, or rather stated it seemed I didn't like Thai people. I do like Thai people. Some of them are just wonderful, friendly, helpful, warm, inclusive with their activities and show that they want to involve me, and seem genuinely excited when I show up somewhere a foreigner is just not expected to show up. This made me rethink about my projected demeanor and attitude about the Thai people and remember why I am here, to do something for the Thai people I really like. I would like people around the world to think of the Thai people as polite and wonderful people. I have to remember they are who they are and we can only lead by example. What i see here seems to be people that don't really think much of the Thai, which leads me to wonder why they are here. Is living in Thailand really all about warm weather, cheap services and easy girlfriends? I see bandwagon mentallity of Thai people bashing and wonder what good it does. There is truth behind everything we say. There is no such thing as just kidding. I think the Thai people have to work with whatever they have, which in the past, and to a real extent still, isn't much. I give them credit for being a happy bunch of people considering the available resources offered to them. Remember, the minimum wage is 184 baht a day, having some education would certainly pay more, but they work with what they have, I give them credit for that. Just a thought.

It is the conflict in the individual mind that manifests as war. When individuals change, the society will automatically change.

— Amma

Hear hear! Well said!

[LaoPo]

When discussing with my students some of the differences between the Thai culture, and the American culture, the topic was manners.

Thai people do not seem to say please, they certainly do not say thank you. A man does not hold a door for a woman, nor let her on the elevator first or anything remotely like it. Rarely am i given a seat on the bus or train by a Thai man, and often a young man will take a seat almost right out from under me. My tone must have seemed bitter, for on the BTS ride home, I sat with one of my students where she asked me, or rather stated it seemed I didn't like Thai people. I do like Thai people. Some of them are just wonderful, friendly, helpful, warm, inclusive with their activities and show that they want to involve me, and seem genuinely excited when I show up somewhere a foreigner is just not expected to show up.

This made me rethink about my projected demeanor and attitude about the Thai people and remember why I am here, to do something for the Thai people I really like.

Sorry, it's completely off-topic, but couldn't resist.

I am again and again surprised (and that's an understatement...) that Farang (are you American?) people judge/discuss a Far Eastern-country, its culture, behaviours and people from their own perspectives.

Perspectives from people who come from countries (USA?) who have a mere 200-300 year old culture and, once they land in the Far East, think it's necessary to discuss/judge a culture which is thousands of years old...just because they 'think' they're wiser, more educated and superior than others...

And, YES I agree, you should rethink and judge/discuss again your demeanor and attitude towards people from cultures that are far more mature and older than so-called 'better' cultures which have just been born.

Cultures who 'please' older cultures with their hamburgers, cola, popcorn, movies, weapons and wars

If you want to do something for the Thai people: respect them!

LaoPo

[Foggy Bottom]

A justification for bad manners? Is being a gentleman a thing of the past? We all have the equal right to stand on the bus or train with a bag of teaching materials and books, purse, groceries etc. Equal rights is an uncountable noun. What does that include? Equally discourteous to all, or doing the same job as a man and getting paid the same?

Danielle - as you so obviously wish all men to treat you with the Victorian courtesies, whilst you enjoy the benefits of replacing them in the workplace, might I suggest that you also adopt the Victorian qualities of ladylike behaviour?

........ Stay at home and take care of the house and children, be seen but not heard, give up the vote, wear a corsette instead of a bra, abstain from alcohol and tobacco, enslave yourself to your husband's every whim, and above all never complain about anything. When women return to that mode of living, maybe men will return to being gentlemen and children will again respect their elders?

You can;t have it all ways - if you wish to be seen as equal to men and to enjoy the perks of being a working adult, then expect to be treated as equal ... YOU open the door for me, YOU stand while I sit because I reached the seat first, YOU wash the car and mow the lawn while I cook lunch, YOU get on the roof to fix the broken slate, or go under the house to fix the broken pipe while I eat chocolates and watch day-time soaps on TV .... as Yul Bryner would have said, "etcetera etcetera etcetera".

[Jarrod]

This is a rare and unbelievable tragedy. I can only imagine how the mechanics felt while the lift was falling. Irrespective of fault I sympathise with everyone including the families, the elevator company and the other occupants of citibank. This is my first my first reponse to thaivisa and I would like to acknowledge gr8fldanielle for his/her message. It seems to have little to do with the elevator accident but his/her comments are worthy of discussion in a separate forum.

[taxexile]

much as i am enjoying the debate between the vegetarian buddhist optimist (and her call for better manners and less criticism of our hosts ), and the embittered grouchy cynical expats (with hundreds of years of hands on experience of thailand and its people and their ways between them) . i'll just interrupt for a second to say that itv news has just reported that a snapped cable is probably responsible for the accident.

pictures of resuscitation attempts on a man with a horribly mangled arm were also shown.

Edited May 6, 2006 by taxexile

[Maejo Man]

As usual a bunch of "bar room lawyers" jumping to conclusions before the cause of this tragedy is discovered.....

Everyones suddenly an expert......stick to being expats nah?

Great first post topspun, I'm sure you'll go far on Thai Visa

Having said that, it's nigh on impossible for a lift to just drop 20 floors, unless the cables are disconnected for some inexplicable reason. In which case the lift would be relying on it's brakes, and these would have to fail too. As a previous poster pointed out, there are large counter weights on the other end of the cable, and in the event of a power cut an empty lift will remain in the same position. Something is sorely amiss with the servicing technique.

Extremely sad for all the families involved.

[farang2002]

But what are the chances of the families and dependents of these poor guys receiving any kind of compensation from Citibank, the building owner or the contracting repair company. No doubt some lawyer will decide that they had broken some safety rule.

This being Thailand where life seems to be cheap, unless your a Shinawatra , it seems that the compensation paid amounts to the cost of a small car.

a small used car at that!

[taxexile]

go here

http://science.howstuffworks.com/elevator3.htm

to see how elevators work .

from reading about the safety systems on modern elevators , it would seem that it is impossible for an elevator to plummet down the shaft.

there would have to have been a simultaneous failure of 3 or 4 different safety systems.

[dotcom]

"Darwin Awards"!!!

[egeefay]

When discussing with my students some of the differences between the Thai culture, and the American culture, the topic was manners. Thai people do not seem to say please, they certainly do not say thank you. A man does not hold a door for a woman, nor let her on the elevator first or anything remotely like it. Rarely am i given a seat on the bus or train by a Thai man, and often a young man will take a seat almost right out from under me. My tone must have seemed bitter, for on the BTS ride home, I sat with one of my students where she asked me, or rather stated it seemed I didn't like Thai people. I do like Thai people. Some of them are just wonderful, friendly, helpful, warm, inclusive with their activities and show that they want to involve me, and seem genuinely excited when I show up somewhere a foreigner is just not expected to show up. This made me rethink about my projected demeanor and attitude about the Thai people and remember why I am here, to do something for the Thai people I really like. I would like people around the world to think of the Thai people as polite and wonderful people. I have to remember they are who they are and we can only lead by example. What i see here seems to be people that don't really think much of the Thai, which leads me to wonder why they are here. Is living in Thailand really all about warm weather, cheap services and easy girlfriends? I see bandwagon mentallity of Thai people bashing and wonder what good it does. There is truth behind everything we say. There is no such thing as just kidding. I think the Thai people have to work with whatever they have, which in the past, and to a real extent still, isn't much. I give them credit for being a happy bunch of people considering the available resources offered to them. Remember, the minimum wage is 184 baht a day, having some education would certainly pay more, but they work with what they have, I give them credit for that. Just a thought.

It is the conflict in the individual mind that manifests as war. When individuals change, the society will automatically change.

— Amma

[dave111223]

Personally I have never understood why monks are given seats.

I never understood this either. It always blows my mind when i'm on a packed bus and some 25 year old monk gets on, and a 60 year old woman has to get up and stand just because she cant even sit next to him.

(Nothing to do with the elevators i know)

[dotcom]

Reminds me of the "monk" I saw in a Singapore Airport holding area. Wearing his Rolex this dude was sitting in first class. LMAO. He was wearing saffron robes.

[LaoPo]

go here

http://science.howstuffworks.com/elevator3.htm

to see how elevators work .

from reading about the safety systems on modern elevators , it would seem that it is impossible for an elevator to plummet down the shaft.

there would have to have been a simultaneous failure of 3 or 4 different safety systems.

Thanks Tax!

From this website:

"The first line of defense is the rope system itself. Each elevator rope is made from several lengths of steel material wound around one another. With this sturdy structure, one rope can support the weight of the elevator car and the counterweight on its own. But elevators are built with multiple ropes (between four and eight, typically). In the unlikely event that one of the ropes snaps, the rest will hold the elevator up.

Even if all of the ropes were to break, or the sheave system were to release them, it is unlikely that an elevator car would fall to the bottom of the shaft. Roped elevator cars have built-in braking systems, or safeties, that grab onto the rail when the car moves too fast."

It indeed looks like multiple 'mechanical and/or human failures'

LaoPo

[perijon]

the mechanics were probably working on the machinery on the lift roof.

must have disarmed the brake by mistake.

what a horrible accident.

Exactly what I think Taxexile, someone released the brakes by mistake. I remember when I was working in L.A. and they were installing high rise Westinghouse elevators in the Wells Fargo Building, I went from the ground floor to the 43rd floor in a flash, and it wasn't stopping. Right at the last moment the emergency brakes came on, all this dust and crap came flying out of the ceiling from the sudden vibration, I managed to grab hold of the hand rail and it stopped about 18inches below the 43rd floor. I got the door open, turned the elevator off, and left it for the mechanics on Monday morning. But I must admit I thought I was dead for sure!

[amarka]

hi...

my wife will kill me....

but nice one Gaz... a lot of truth in this!

amarka

A justification for bad manners? Is being a gentleman a thing of the past? We all have the equal right to stand on the bus or train with a bag of teaching materials and books, purse, groceries etc. Equal rights is an uncountable noun. What does that include? Equally discourteous to all, or doing the same job as a man and getting paid the same?

Danielle - as you so obviously wish all men to treat you with the Victorian courtesies, whilst you enjoy the benefits of replacing them in the workplace, might I suggest that you also adopt the Victorian qualities of ladylike behaviour?

........ Stay at home and take care of the house and children, be seen but not heard, give up the vote, wear a corsette instead of a bra, abstain from alcohol and tobacco, enslave yourself to your husband's every whim, and above all never complain about anything. When women return to that mode of living, maybe men will return to being gentlemen and children will again respect their elders?

You can;t have it all ways - if you wish to be seen as equal to men and to enjoy the perks of being a working adult, then expect to be treated as equal ... YOU open the door for me, YOU stand while I sit because I reached the seat first, YOU wash the car and mow the lawn while I cook lunch, YOU get on the roof to fix the broken slate, or go under the house to fix the broken pipe while I eat chocolates and watch day-time soaps on TV .... as Yul Bryner would have said, "etcetera etcetera etcetera".

[dotcom]

Maybe you should kill her first? Life is too short.

[amarka]

hi...

topspun meant exprats... sorry a spelling mistake!

amarka

As usual a bunch of "bar room lawyers" jumping to conclusions before the cause of this tragedy is discovered.....

Everyones suddenly an expert......stick to being expats nah?

Great first post topspun, I'm sure you'll go far on Thai Visa

Having said that, it's nigh on impossible for a lift to just drop 20 floors, unless the cables are disconnected for some inexplicable reason. In which case the lift would be relying on it's brakes, and these would have to fail too. As a previous poster pointed out, there are large counter weights on the other end of the cable, and in the event of a power cut an empty lift will remain in the same position. Something is sorely amiss with the servicing technique.

Extremely sad for all the families involved.

[Johnny Tahoe]

'Thai mechanics... says it all really.'

Simple, yet oh so accurate.

Funny how a woman brings up the 'not standing for them' stuff, yet they want all the other equal rights. Sometimes sweety you just cannot have your cake and eat it as well.

A justification for bad manners? Is being a gentleman a thing of the past? We all have the equal right to stand on the bus or train with a bag of teaching materials and books, purse, groceries etc. Equal rights is an uncountable noun. What does that include? Equally discourteous to all, or doing the same job as a man and getting paid the same? I have given up my seat to someone with more than I had to carry just so they would be guaranteed a seat when I got off. Lead by example, not by excuses. Personally I have never understood why monks are given seats. I respect them for being who they are, like everybody else, and like everybody else, I see them sleeping in parks or where ever, enjoying a cigarette, and like many others looking for handouts. Save the anti-religious comments because I am a buddhist, a follower of Christs teachings, not the Christian religion mind you, a student of Vedic studies and a vegetarian of 30 years. I am an activist for equal rights, you can count on that, everyone should be treated with respect equally considering the source of everything, not equal disrespect. Overweight 10 year old children can stand as easy as anyone else, maybe easier considering children are far more active by choice. What does this have to do with elevators? Observantly nothing.

[rcav8r]

go here

from reading about the safety systems on modern elevators , it would seem that it is impossible for an elevator to plummet down the shaft.

there would have to have been a simultaneous failure of 3 or 4 different safety systems.

That's not impossible - think of aircraft accidents - with all their safety checks in place, things still go wrong. Things ! Not just one thing. Aircraft still go down. Accidents happen because there are multiple things going wrong at the same time or in sequence which give rise to the ultimate failure. Some are human error and others are not. Some of the possible causes are not covered by the "how an elevator works" website. So, it's impossible to conjecture until a full investigation is carried out - and one would hope that Citibank insist on this as a responsible company and employer. But will the results of the investigation ever be disclosed to the public ?

MalcolmL

[Mr Ling Noi]

go here

http://science.howstuffworks.com/elevator3.htm

to see how elevators work .

from reading about the safety systems on modern elevators , it would seem that it is impossible for an elevator to plummet down the shaft.

there would have to have been a simultaneous failure of 3 or 4 different safety systems.

Finally some simple answers, how an elevator works.

My thoughts go out to the families and friends of the unfortunate guys that died in this tradgic accident.

After reading the info on Tax's link i cannot see how it fell so far by a simple coincedence that every safety measure failed at the exact same time. There must be some, or alot of human error for this to have happened. This is a Citibank building which i cannot imagine were too cheap to afford a safe elevator. It was not some sh8t 3rd world short time hotel that cuts corners on everything they do.

gr8fldanielle: You have obviously no idea about Thais, I am overwhelmed by the respect Thais have, I agree that not 100% of them are like that but by far most all of them are. get out of the central Tourist areas and you may see a different seen. You sound like a typical, IGNORANT Falang that I have to wonder why you are here in the first place. If anyones Thai bashing here mate, it's YOU.

Once again, My thoughts go out to the friends and family.